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Classified SEGA of America Docs From ~1996 Have Just Been Shared Online

Thick Thighs Save Lives

Thick Thighs Save Lives

Gold Member
F0GhODuagAA-xQh
 
Alexios

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So why was it so overpriced at launch? Seems like they could have sold it for 300 for a healthy profit while keeping the same retailer cut (as in $15, not the 6%, making it seem better for them too % wise) and none of the negative buzz surrounding it, or Sony''s hype for launching super cheap either.
 
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best

thicc_girls_are_teh_best

Member
Nice; I saw Pandamonium Games streaming this earlier (couldn't watch the whole thing, just the last 15 minutes). Gonna give that a watch and read these documents later tonight. I'm very interested to see thematic parallels between these and say the Microsoft (and to a lesser extent, Sony) documents we've just had revealed in the FTC hearing.

Also:

Thick Thighs Save Lives said:
F0GhODuagAA-xQh
Click to expand...

He must've been on shrooms 🤣.

True Saturn & PS1 were very close in Japan, and Saturn had the early lead. But SoJ were regularly reporting sold-in while Sony were reporting sold-through (sound familiar?). And at best Saturn was a close 2nd to PS1 in Japan even by early-mid '95, but again that is taking Saturn's sold-in vs PS1's sold-through.

On purely sold-through I've heard that PS1 had a more comfortable lead (though Saturn was still competitive), and that kept growing each year until FF VII where PS1 just skyrocketed ahead. The way Kalinske describes it in this email makes it sound like Saturn was slaughtering PlayStation there.
 
Kokoloko85

Kokoloko85

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Nice; I saw Pandamonium Games streaming this earlier (couldn't watch the whole thing, just the last 15 minutes). Gonna give that a watch and read these documents later tonight. I'm very interested to see thematic parallels between these and say the Microsoft (and to a lesser extent, Sony) documents we've just had revealed in the FTC hearing.

Also:



He must've been on shrooms 🤣.

True Saturn & PS1 were very close in Japan, and Saturn had the early lead. But SoJ were regularly reporting sold-in while Sony were reporting sold-through (sound familiar?). And at best Saturn was a close 2nd to PS1 in Japan even by early-mid '95, but again that is taking Saturn's sold-in vs PS1's sold-through.

On purely sold-through I've heard that PS1 had a more comfortable lead (though Saturn was still competitive), and that kept growing each year until FF VII where PS1 just skyrocketed ahead. The way Kalinske describes it in this email makes it sound like Saturn was slaughtering PlayStation there.
Click to expand...

Just adding that Saturn outsold the N64 in Japan
 
Scotty W

Scotty W

Gold Member
Hideki Sato, creator of the Saturn, talking about getting absolutely mogged by Ken Kutaragi:

Once when I was talking with Ken Kutaragi [the creator of the PlayStation], he said “Hideki-chan”—he refers to me using the “chan” diminutive—“Hideki-chan, there’s no way you can beat me. Where are you buying your processors? From Hitachi. From Yamaha. What about your CD-ROM drives? You’re buying everything. By buying from Hitachi, Hitachi is profiting. You can’t make anything yourselves. We can make everything ourselves, including custom parts. We have our own factories.” Near Nakashinden, they had a huge factory where they made audio equipment that they were using for the PlayStation. Their cost structure was completely different.

“‘That’s the way it is, Hideki-chan,’ Kutaragi told me. ‘So quit the hardware business. Why not just do software? We’ll give you favorable treatment.’ He wanted us to go third party. We had been going for so long in the hardware business, for better or worse, and to go third party now? We had been half-heartedly successful in America once, and this made it impossible to quit the hardware business.
Click to expand...

https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/hideki-sato-discussing-the-sega-saturn/
 
Wulfer

Wulfer

Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Nice; I saw Pandamonium Games streaming this earlier (couldn't watch the whole thing, just the last 15 minutes). Gonna give that a watch and read these documents later tonight. I'm very interested to see thematic parallels between these and say the Microsoft (and to a lesser extent, Sony) documents we've just had revealed in the FTC hearing.

Also:



He must've been on shrooms 🤣.

True Saturn & PS1 were very close in Japan, and Saturn had the early lead. But SoJ were regularly reporting sold-in while Sony were reporting sold-through (sound familiar?). And at best Saturn was a close 2nd to PS1 in Japan even by early-mid '95, but again that is taking Saturn's sold-in vs PS1's sold-through.

On purely sold-through I've heard that PS1 had a more comfortable lead (though Saturn was still competitive), and that kept growing each year until FF VII where PS1 just skyrocketed ahead. The way Kalinske describes it in this email makes it sound like Saturn was slaughtering PlayStation there.
Click to expand...
The Saturn had a very healthy market in Japan unlike the States. You're about to find out quite alot. SOA made some key errors that pushed Japan past them. For one the import market was hot back then but, SOA refused to acknowledge what was hot and selling. One, not releasing the 4 meg ram cart was a mistake. Sega Japan got all these "Xmen vs Street Fighter -Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter -Vampire Savior -Street Fighter Zero 3 (Street Fighter Alpha 3) -Pocket Fighter -Astra Superstars (OPTIONAL) -Dungeons & Dragons Collection (Disc 2 only)" and they were arcade perfect! The Playstation got inferior versions of all of these titles why Sega didn't find a way to capitalize on those games and the ram cart I'll never know. Yes, Sega was very different story in Japan. I know they were arcade perfect I still have mine! The Ram cart could have been a game changer in the States but, we'll never know. This cart was something Sony didn't have and they didn't have a way to add one if it was a success. Sega should have bundled that cart in with the system for the same $399 price!
 
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DryvBy

DryvBy

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
6% sounds like a decent retail margin, since historically dont stores breakeven? They make all the money on games, peripherals, carrying cases etc...
Click to expand...
When I worked retail in like 2002, I handled games. We didn't make money on games at all. The peripherals were the biggest sellers and those annoying warranties. Systems made us more money than games. We got an "at cost" discount for most products.
 
T

tygertrip

Member
Wulfer said:
The Saturn had a very healthy market in Japan unlike the States. You're about to find out quite alot. SOA made some key errors that pushed Japan past them. For one the import market was hot back then but, SOA refused to acknowledge what was hot and selling. For one not releasing the 4 meg ram cart was a mistake. Sega Japan got all these "Xmen vs Street Fighter -Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter -Vampire Savior -Street Fighter Zero 3 (Street Fighter Alpha 3) -Pocket Fighter -Astra Superstars (OPTIONAL) -Dungeons & Dragons Collection (Disc 2 only)" and they were arcade perfect! The Playstation got inferior versions of all of these titles why Sega didn't find a way to capitalize on those games and the ram cart I'll never know. Yes, Sega was very different story in Japan. I know their arcade perfect I still have mine! The Ram cart could have been a game changer in the States but, we'll never know. This cart was something Sony didn't have and they didn't have a way to add one if it was a success. Sega should have bundled that cart in with the system for the same $399 price!
Click to expand...
I remember those days.., it was SO frustrating being a Sega fanboy during the Saturn years (in the USA). Stupid move after stupid move after stupid move. Sony deserved to win, no doubt... they did everything right, and Sega did everything wrong (despite jaw dropping titles like Virtua Fighter 2). Listen to this. Back in the Saturn years, Sega had a HUGE display/promotional area at EPCOT in Walt Disney World (inside Innoventions, to be exact). Being a Disney fanatic, I went once a year, and always loved to visit the Sega area, and see what was coming down the pike. OK, listen to this... Right around the time Virtua Fighter 2 hit the Saturn, I was down there. I run into Innoventions, expecting to see groups of people blown away at the jaw-dropping home adaption of one of the most incredible fighting games ever made. What did I find? Not one fucking screen had or demo unit was playing VF2!!!! And do you want to know what they were demo’ing on the big screen ? Clockwork Knight. Not even the cool looking sequel, it was the first one. No Sega Rally, No Panzer Dragoon Zwei, no VF2… CLOCKWORK GODDAMN KNIGHT. I repeat… this was at motherfucking WALT DISNEY WORLD…. AAAAAARRGH!!! Fortunately, I had recently turned old enough to legally drink, so I walked straight to World Showcase and got blasted and temporarily forgot about it.

I knew they were screwed. They just didn’t get it. Anyway, I’ve been a Sony faithful ever since the PS2 hit. I even got a PS5 at retail price back when they were impossible to find (at retail) direct from Sony as a ”reward “ for my decades of buying Sony PlayStation products (which is quite awesome of them TBH, I certainly didn’t expect that email!). But goddamn I loved Sega products in the 90s, and goddamn if they didn’t screw the pooch.
 
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TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Just when I thought a company couldn't get any lower, Jimbo comes along and proves me wrong.
The man has no shame 😐
 
StreetsofBeige

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
DryvBy said:
When I worked retail in like 2002, I handled games. We didn't make money on games at all. The peripherals were the biggest sellers and those annoying warranties. Systems made us more money than games. We got an "at cost" discount for most products.
Click to expand...
Your store made no profit on games? That doesn't sound right.

I remember a mom and pop game store in the 90s I visited and the guy at the counter was opening up cardboxes of games that got delivered. I remember seeing the invoice. I think the typical game sold for $70 CDN back them. Each game had a price on the paper of around $55 each.
 
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DryvBy

DryvBy

Member
StreetsofBeige said:
Your store made no profit on games? That doesn't sound right.

I remember a mom and pop game store in the 90s I visited and the guy at the counter was opening up cardboxes of games that got delivered. I remember seeing the invoice. I think the typical game sold for $70 CDN back them. Each game had a price on the paper of around $55 each.
Click to expand...
In 2002, games were $29-$49. Our system was pretty great and we could see all at-cost pricing.
 
U

UnNamed

Banned
Alexios said:
So why was it so overpriced at launch? Seems like they could have sold it for 300 for a healthy profit while keeping the same retailer cut (as in $15, not the 6%, making it seem better for them too % wise) and none of the negative buzz surrounding it, or Sony''s hype for launching super cheap either.
Click to expand...
Saturn was launched in late 1994, so I imagine cost per components were cheaper in mid 1996.

Consider that selling a console at loss was pretty common back in the day, companies relied on selling software.
 
C

cartman414

Member
Kilau said:
Dude is absolutely brutal, like a caricature of cutthroat business men. I remember the story of how he left Cerny in near tears calling Crash Bandicoot crap.
Click to expand...
He apparently also crafted the SNES CD-ROM deal that would have given them all the royalties.
 
Calverz

Calverz

Gold Member
tygertrip said:
I remember those days.., it was SO frustrating being a Sega fanboy during the Saturn years (in the USA). Stupid move after stupid move after stupid move. Sony deserved to win, no doubt... they did everything right, and Sega did everything wrong (despite jaw dropping titles like Virtua Fighter 2). Listen to this. Back in the Saturn years, Sega had a HUGE display/promotional area at EPCOT in Walt Disney World (inside Innoventions, to be exact). Being a Disney fanatic, I went once a year, and always loved to visit the Sega area, and see what was coming down the pike. OK, listen to this... Right around the time Virtua Fighter 2 hit the Saturn, I was down there. I run into Innoventions, expecting to see groups of people blown away at the jaw-dropping home adaption of one of the most incredible fighting games ever made. What did I find? Not one fucking screen had or demo unit was playing VF2!!!! And do you want to know what they were demo’ing on the big screen ? Clockwork Knight. Not even the cool looking sequel, it was the first one. No Sega Rally, No Panzer Dragoon Zwei, no VF2… CLOCKWORK GODDAMN KNIGHT. I repeat… this was at motherfucking WALT DISNEY WORLD…. AAAAAARRGH!!! Fortunately, I had recently turned old enough to legally drink, so I walked straight to World Showcase and got blasted and temporarily forgot about it.

I knew they were screwed. They just didn’t get it. Anyway, I’ve been a Sony faithful ever since the PS2 hit. I even got a PS5 at retail price back when they were impossible to find (at retail) direct from Sony as a ”reward “ for my decades of buying Sony PlayStation products (which is quite awesome of them TBH, I certainly didn’t expect that email!). But goddamn I loved Sega products in the 90s, and goddamn if they didn’t screw the pooch.
Click to expand...
I assume you work in the industry or YouTuber to get a free ps5 from Sony?
 
S

SomeGit

Member
Kyo said:
Reading this stuff, I'd say SoA leadership looked just as incompetent and clueless from the inside as it did from the outside:
IaPnUcy.png
Click to expand...

I wonder what’s VF2 Remix. Maybe what morphed into VF Kids?
 
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RAIDEN1

RAIDEN1

Member
This was at the height of the civil war brewing in Sega, where the Sega Japan arm didn't like the U.S arm....and then the U.S side decides to go with the ill-fated 32x which performed worse than the Sega CD, all the while in Japan they were looking to build the true successor to the Genesis, one of the BIGGEST blunders was not to scrap the 32x idea but instead make the cartridge slot on the Saturn backward compatible with the Genesis, just like how the Genesis had backward compatibility with the Master System...that would have provided a better "32-bit bridge" then trying to flog a dead horse that was the Genesis circa 1995...
 
Kyo

Kyo

Member
Wulfer said:
The Saturn had a very healthy market in Japan unlike the States. You're about to find out quite alot. SOA made some key errors that pushed Japan past them. For one the import market was hot back then but, SOA refused to acknowledge what was hot and selling. One, not releasing the 4 meg ram cart was a mistake. Sega Japan got all these "Xmen vs Street Fighter -Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter -Vampire Savior -Street Fighter Zero 3 (Street Fighter Alpha 3) -Pocket Fighter -Astra Superstars (OPTIONAL) -Dungeons & Dragons Collection (Disc 2 only)" and they were arcade perfect! The Playstation got inferior versions of all of these titles why Sega didn't find a way to capitalize on those games and the ram cart I'll never know. Yes, Sega was very different story in Japan. I know they were arcade perfect I still have mine! The Ram cart could have been a game changer in the States but, we'll never know. This cart was something Sony didn't have and they didn't have a way to add one if it was a success. Sega should have bundled that cart in with the system for the same $399 price!
Click to expand...

And reading these internal e-mails, it's pretty clear they really were oblivious to the system's actual strengths. It's all variations of "we need to be more like the competition, but better", focus on polygons (i.e. don't bother with any of the old-fashioned 2D stuff) and sports, sports, sports. Not only did SoA (and SoE) fail to contribute anything to the Saturn portfolio that held up, they didn't even attempt to showcase the types of Japanese titles that made the system unique and fun. Sure, none of those were going to become huge sellers. But SoA just didn't seem to grasp the concept of a "prestige title", and so stuff like the aforementioned Capcom (and also SNK) games using the RAM cart didn't make it to the US and Europe. In late '97 the Saturn version of X-Men vs Street Fighter was a real stunner, an experience offered by no other home console at the time. I know people who bought a Saturn after seeing it running the game at this quality level. But SoA and SoE simply didn't care.

Aside from fighting games, great stuff like Treasure's Silhouette Mirage and Radiant Silvergun, Soukyugurentai (Terra Diver) or the amazing Thunderforce V also never made it out of Japan, and infamously, neither did Grandia, which should've been the crown jewel in anyone's Saturn collection. And so with a lot of good stuff staying exclusive to Japan, not only was what did get released over here clearly not enough to establish the system in the market, Sega's approach demotivated people who had already bought a Saturn, because so much of what was still coming out was inferior to the PlayStation version and even the arcade conversions that were exclusive to Saturn started moving from reference level (VF2, Sega Rally, Virtua Cop 1+2) to increasingly poor once Sega started giving them to external developers (Manx TT, House of the Dead, Sky Target...). It's important for owners of your platform to stay engaged and have the feeling that they're getting their money's worth, that they're getting games that can impress even those used to playing on competing systems. SoA and SoE failed at this so hard and it's not because these games didn't exist.



tygertrip said:
I remember those days.., it was SO frustrating being a Sega fanboy during the Saturn years (in the USA). Stupid move after stupid move after stupid move. Sony deserved to win, no doubt... they did everything right, and Sega did everything wrong (despite jaw dropping titles like Virtua Fighter 2). [...]

I knew they were screwed. They just didn’t get it.
Click to expand...

"Stupid move after stupid move" really sums it up nicely. And while a certain level of floundering is inevitable when things don't go well, it all started so early! I remember months of negative press comparing the blocky (and glitchy) visuals of Virtua Fighter to Tohshinden and Tekken even though Sega had the much prettier VF Remix completely ready as early as April 1995. But instead of massively promoting that as the state of fighting game graphics on Saturn ASAP, they still went ahead and launched the system in the US and Europe with the old original Virtua Fighter months after VF Remix was finished, with a half-assed exchange/upgrade program for early buyers. The ineptness was just stunning to behold.
 
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