'Co-op to win' is pissing me off, GAF

#1
It seems like this is a really effective way to make a game go viral: design the game so that it is impossible or very hard to beat without having to get your friend to buy it and play with you.

I think I'm going to stop buying games that do this, or at least give them a proper call-out when I see it. Destiny pulled this with the way they designed raids without having a matchmaking service. The Monster Hunter clones on the Vita did this with a couple bosses too. And now I'm seeing Monster Hunter: World do a lot of this. Last night I fought a boss in single player mode that felt rigged from the beginning. Despite this, I was kicking his ass and evading at all the right times. I had him limping on his last legs and kept hitting hard, but he wouldn't go down and the fight kept going for an oddly long time. He knocked me out a couple times in quick succession, then finally I got put in an unavoidable stun and he killed me in one shot. That really pissed me off.

After taking a few minutes to cool off, I remembered that before the fight, the game automatically tried to set me up with other players online. It hadn't done that before, and I turned it down. Now looking back, I can see how game was pushing me to rely on its co-op mode. No thank you, that's not what I was feeling at the time.

I don't want to have my play style constrained due to some asshole's corporate strategy; I play games to get away from everyday bullshit, not to succumb to it. I'm not saying that games shoudn't be tough, that's what difficulty settings are for. But games should be designed to provide entertainment rather than frustration, or at the very least refrain from manipulating users to constantly be spending money or telling your friends to.
 
#5
I really want to try MH World but feel like the grind is more like a war of attrition that I will get sick of fast. Maybe the PC will have a mod with like 1/5 hp for Monsters and it would be more enjoyable for me.
 
#6
I really want to try MH World but feel like the grind is more like a war of attrition that I will get sick of fast. Maybe the PC will have a mod with like 1/5 hp for Monsters and it would be more enjoyable for me.
The co-op aspect is why I’ve avoided MH World despite glowing reviews and raves. I don’t want to play with other people, and all but forcing that upon me is enough to make me skip.
 
#7
You never have to play with another person in mh world. I will beat a monster by myself then do it again with others for faster runs.
 
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#8
OP, then don't buy those games that cater to the newer generation of gamers.
I’m not sure it’s a generation issue though. I think it comes down to how willing people are to put up with manipulation, and clearly a lot of people don’t mind or notice. But yeah, like I said, I’m probably going to start avoiding those games.
 
#10
I've ran through the entire campaign and HR on MHW and I can't think of a single time the game ever tried to force me into a group, or any monster that I couldn't beat solo (the monsters actually have less HP solo FYI).

What monster was this if I may ask?

I understand being frustrated, but your complaint does not make sense against MHW.
 
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#12
I’m not sure it’s a generation issue though. I think it comes down to how willing people are to put up with manipulation, and clearly a lot of people don’t mind or notice. But yeah, like I said, I’m probably going to start avoiding those games.
Monster Hunter World makes the enemies harder if you have more people. You can beat every mission single player. I have and several other people have too.

Your probably just had bad armor on if you were getting 1 shot.
 
#13
Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance was one of those games for me. I still hate myself for buying it because CASTLEVANIA.
I think you mean Harmony of Despair, and I beat all of the stages solo with all characters even on hard mode.
Ofcourse it's more fun in coop, because that's literally what the game was designed for, but it's far from "coop to win".
 
#14
Ive been using the insect glaive and been able to solo every monster ive come up against (diablos, bazelgeuse, kirin, nirigante) with relative ease compared to co-op. Because in co-op the enemies are harder, more aggresive and have more health and i have a certain friend who almost likes to die it seems.

Also if theyre limping, try capturing it. That could potentially cut 5-10 minutes of fighting (minus elder dragons. Those cant be caught)

OP, then don't buy those games that cater to the newer generation of gamers.
His biggest gripe is monster hunter and that series has been around since the ps2 era.
 
#15
Monster Hunter World makes the enemies harder if you have more people. You can beat every mission single player. I have and several other people have too.

Your probably just had bad armor on if you were getting 1 shot.
It does and it doesn't. If you go into co-op, the game makes monsters stronger and harder than if you are facing them alone. But with other fighters on your side, they become a lot easier to fight.

I've ran through the entire campaign and HR on MHW and I can't think of a single time the game ever tried to force me into a group, or any monster that I couldn't beat solo (the monsters actually have less HP solo FYI).

What monster was this if I may ask?

I understand being frustrated, but your complaint does not make sense against MHW.
I think it was Odogaron. Yeah the game popped up the co-op matchmaking before the fight.
 
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#18
It's actually easier solo because lower health values means you can keep something stun locked more easily. They're also much more predictable when they're not running around so much. What I would fault the game with is not effectively conveying how to use i-frames to newcomers, particularly playing dead when Nergigante is about to dunk you.

I think it was Odogaron.
It's definitely a step up from Radobaan and Great Girros, the other monsters in the map, and it doesn't help that it's almost always in effuvium affected areas and can cause bleed. But really, since you had Odo limping the fight was already over in your favor and the loss was your fault. You should have just capped it. World is way more generous than previous games. It effectively gives you triple the inventory space of the others, not to mention giving you access to your storage mid-hunt. Don't be shy about using your tools.
 
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#19
I don't like like either. MGS: Peace Walker is hard when playing alone. It really feels like the boss battles were designed to be played with someone.
 
#20
It's actually easier solo because lower health values means you can keep something stun locked more easily. They're also much more predictable when they're not running around so much. What I would fault the game with is not effectively conveying how to use i-frames to newcomers, particularly playing dead when Nergigante is about to dunk you.

It's definitely a step up from Radobaan and Great Girros, the other monsters in the map, and it doesn't help that it's almost always in effuvium affected areas and can cause bleed. But really, since you had Odo limping the fight was already over in your favor and the loss was your fault. You should have just capped it. World is way more generous than previous games. It effectively gives you triple the inventory space of the others, not to mention giving you access to your storage mid-hunt. Don't be shy about using your tools.
I’m familiar with the ‘get good’ argument. I beat Dark Souls 1+2 without co-op, but I could still see by the second game and well into Bloodborne DLC, that the games seemed structured to sell Plus subscriptions. Monster Hunter is the same, I get an advertisement to subscribe to Plus when the game starts up, and the game reminds me once again whenever I take on a mission. Let’s not be naïve about what’s going on here. MH is a good game and millions of people love it, but it’s designed to get you to play online with other people.

As for my fight, I wouldn’t argue that it was impossible. It was just sketchy as hell.
 

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#23
OP, then don't buy those games that cater to the newer generation of gamers.
This was my first thought exactly. You don't have to buy those games, and there is no shortage of amazing games you can get your hands on and play right now...
 
#24
Nothing I said equates to just telling you to get good. Using items may as well be the opposite since some consider them a crutch. The fight really was over as soon it started limping, if telling you to put down a trap and throwing 2 tranq bombs at something that can't fight back is a "gitgud" argument then I don't know what to say. And the argument that the game is designed to sell subs holds no water since previous games didn't require online subs and those were a lot less accessible than World. The reminder mid-hunt that you can summon is because Capcom is ass backwards and decided that you have to see cutscenes first before you can do multiplayer.
 
#25
MHW is 100% soloable. As soon as something limps you won (unless its an elder dragon, those cant be captured). Since its an rpg, you probably arent as well geared as you can be, but that hardly makes it a co-op only situation. Gear up, try again and succeed. I also lost numerous times to monsters in ways that were annoying, and yet as soon as you start using the items the game provides - everything becomes easier.

Also, maybe you see psplus adds because you dont have psplus? I never once in all my 200h seen an ad like that pop up.
 
#26
The Legend of Zelda Triforce Heroes is the worse with this, although it's co-op required issue isn't difficulty related, it's something much worse. Made worse by co-op is 3 player only.

I don't like like either. MGS: Peace Walker is hard when playing alone. It really feels like the boss battles were designed to be played with someone.
Yeah, that game got really frustrating in the end with the action levels too.
 
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#27
IAnd now I'm seeing Monster Hunter: World do a lot of this. Last night I fought a boss in single player mode that felt rigged from the beginning. Despite this, I was kicking his ass and evading at all the right times. I had him limping on his last legs and kept hitting hard, but he wouldn't go down and the fight kept going for an oddly long time. He knocked me out a couple times in quick succession, then finally I got put in an unavoidable stun and he killed me in one shot. That really pissed me off.
Monster Hunter World is actually easier in solo. The boss has way less health and their parts break way more easily. Sorry, but if you can't solo a fight in that game, then you're actually not pulling your weight in co-op for sure. It sounds like you're pretty early on in the game, which makes this understandable, but it is very far from a game that demands co-op.
 
#29
It seems like this is a really effective way to make a game go viral: design the game so that it is impossible or very hard to beat without having to get your friend to buy it and play with you.

I think I'm going to stop buying games that do this, or at least give them a proper call-out when I see it. Destiny pulled this with the way they designed raids without having a matchmaking service. The Monster Hunter clones on the Vita did this with a couple bosses too. And now I'm seeing Monster Hunter: World do a lot of this. Last night I fought a boss in single player mode that felt rigged from the beginning. Despite this, I was kicking his ass and evading at all the right times. I had him limping on his last legs and kept hitting hard, but he wouldn't go down and the fight kept going for an oddly long time. He knocked me out a couple times in quick succession, then finally I got put in an unavoidable stun and he killed me in one shot. That really pissed me off.

After taking a few minutes to cool off, I remembered that before the fight, the game automatically tried to set me up with other players online. It hadn't done that before, and I turned it down. Now looking back, I can see how game was pushing me to rely on its co-op mode. No thank you, that's not what I was feeling at the time.

I don't want to have my play style constrained due to some asshole's corporate strategy; I play games to get away from everyday bullshit, not to succumb to it. I'm not saying that games shoudn't be tough, that's what difficulty settings are for. But games should be designed to provide entertainment rather than frustration, or at the very least refrain from manipulating users to constantly be spending money or telling your friends to.
Try Vermintide 2, just came out. Its a coop game vs AI but you can play solo with bots. And I have found I do better with the bots, as they follow my lead and keep me protected, don't run off etc. Give it a look, its under 60$ and bucks the trend (IMO) of coop to win games like Hunt/overcooked/paragon etc
 
#30
When you invite *anyone* to co-op, your boss's health raises by a set amount regardless of how many people. If you just need someone to kite the boss away from you, your Palico can fill that roll swimmingly. Some bosses are literally easier to do in singleplayer just because you can take more % off of the boss.

While *nearly* every game in the series has had co-op in some form or another, World is by far the most solo-able game I've seen. Evaluate your strategy, make sure to complete your research, make sure you have adequate healing items, eat, and don't be afraid to run and hide. If you got stunned, perhaps see about acquiring armor/skills that reduce stun.

It *really* just sounds like you got greedy near the end and were punished for it. You can do it, I believe in you.
 
#31
I think the key is not to buy the games that are designed and marketed as a primary co-op experience.


Monster Hunter, Destiny, The Division, etc. Just don’t play them, they’re not for you and that’s fine.
 
#32
You never have to play with another person in mh world. I will beat a monster by myself then do it again with others for faster runs.
This, i dont know what the OPis talking about.
Besides, if he cant beat a boss its possible to make the Palicos so powerful they can beat the monsters on their own if he gets stuck.

Palico Xeno armour, ranged, palico rally, off you go.
 
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#33
I think the key is not to buy the games that are designed and marketed as a primary co-op experience.


Monster Hunter, Destiny, The Division, etc. Just don’t play them, they’re not for you and that’s fine.
Yeah that's pretty much the tl;dr. Only I bought MHW because my buddy wanted me to and my knowledge of it was limited to it being super hyped and well received. Then my buddy bailed on the game, and it's become a lot less pleasant to play since my Plus sub expired a few days ago. Anyway, yeah I should have done some more research I guess.

To the people saying that the game is harder in co-op, I just totally don't understand that. Every time I fought a relatively challenging monster in co-op it was way easier than going at him alone. I don't think my friend was particularly great at the game, but maybe he was and I didn't notice. The couple times I played with strangers it was even easier.
 
#34
Monster Hunter World is definitely my biggest disappointment/waste in a long while. Terrible postprocessing choices from the outset to make it garbage to look at, handholding out the ass for eternity, shitty multiplayer solution compared to the hubs of past games, lack of monster creativity, and monsters always running away or fighting other monsters making it a total mess. I actually hate that it is such a massive success because it was such a good series before this. Now Capcom will get all the worst ideas about it.
 
#35
Yeah that's pretty much the tl;dr. Only I bought MHW because my buddy wanted me to and my knowledge of it was limited to it being super hyped and well received. Then my buddy bailed on the game, and it's become a lot less pleasant to play since my Plus sub expired a few days ago. Anyway, yeah I should have done some more research I guess.

To the people saying that the game is harder in co-op, I just totally don't understand that. Every time I fought a relatively challenging monster in co-op it was way easier than going at him alone. I don't think my friend was particularly great at the game, but maybe he was and I didn't notice. The couple times I played with strangers it was even easier.
It's easier because your probably not playing effectively and from the sounds of it you aren't understanding the systems. It's only easier because those people are carrying you. The monsters are more erractic in multiplayer and you can't as easily read their moves because they will switch targets so quickly. Watch some tutorials, it's not a fault of the game being reliant on co-op. It's player skill/ability (which the game does a terrible job of teaching you how to use the weapons etc unless you go into the training area and even then you need to probably look up some of the better combos to use and how to time them etc).
 
#36
I hated this in Destiny. Go all the way through the game solo, then suddenly need other people for raids with a HUGE spike in difficulty and a backwards as fuck party system
 
#37
Monster Hunter is so easy solo that I pretty much only solo at higher levels for anything I don't want to fail.

Anything else I don't care about, I'll just let people join in.
 
#38
It's easier because your probably not playing effectively and from the sounds of it you aren't understanding the systems. It's only easier because those people are carrying you. The monsters are more erractic in multiplayer and you can't as easily read their moves because they will switch targets so quickly. Watch some tutorials, it's not a fault of the game being reliant on co-op. It's player skill/ability (which the game does a terrible job of teaching you how to use the weapons etc unless you go into the training area and even then you need to probably look up some of the better combos to use and how to time them etc).
That’s an interesting argument. Only I was playing effectively, and I do understand most of the game's systems.

Even if I wasn't very good at the game, however, that argument would still prove my point: people who don’t know how to play the game, are not very good at it, or in general have very little experience with video games would need to rely on others in co-op to ‘carry’ them through the toughest battles.
 
#39
In Wipeout HD there's a trophy, "Gemini", for completing 10 two-player races.

I asked my beloved better half if she wanted to try racing along with me. She loves F-Zero GX, so you'd think she would be in, but she wasn't.

So my "solution" was to attempt to manipulate two controllers at once and finish both first and second at the same time.
With Pilot Assist on and racing on the smooth Anulpha Pass, I did it.
 
#40
The co-op aspect is why I’ve avoided MH World despite glowing reviews and raves. I don’t want to play with other people, and all but forcing that upon me is enough to make me skip.
No one is forcing you play coop in Monster Hunter World. The game is amazing and very beatable solo and plenty of people enjoy the solo aspect such as myself. No reason to miss out on this game. Just play it.
 
#41
I'm big on the policy of "If it's not fun, do something else." Give yourself pause and ask yourself why you're doing something, and if it's worth it. It's too easy to get invested without fully understanding why.

Games tend to get quality-of-life changes over time, especially with balancing, so it's often worth it to revisit a title once it's had some time to age properly and become a more enjoyable experience.
 
#42
This was my first thought exactly. You don't have to buy those games, and there is no shortage of amazing games you can get your hands on and play right now...
That's no excuse to make a game that's prohibitively difficult to complete with just 1 person.

"Just don't play it" "It's not for you" etc. The OP clearly wants to play the game and is being stymied by its bad design choices. It's just a poor way to design a game even if there is a gimmick where you absolutely need 2 players to create some sort of effect - don't make it impossible for the person who bought the game to complete it.

I'm big on the policy of "If it's not fun, do something else." Give yourself pause and ask yourself why you're doing something, and if it's worth it. It's too easy to get invested without fully understanding why.

Games tend to get quality-of-life changes over time, especially with balancing, so it's often worth it to revisit a title once it's had some time to age properly and become a more enjoyable experience.
If you're invested you naturally want to play the game. How often do you sit down with a game and have an existential "why am I really playing this?" You enjoy it for what it is regardless of the flaws. I don't see the problem with laying into a game and calling it out for doing some things wrong.
 
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#43
It's been said but MH:W is the most single player friendly game in the series. In past games you would absolutely need to co-op to do the hardest stuff in the game in a reasonable time. Here it can actually be quicker and easier to do endgame fights solo.
 
#44
I’m not sure how to respond to people who seem surprised Destiny expects play with other people. Wasn’t this game marketed as a pseudo mmo?
 
#45
Monster Hunter is known to be a coop first game, not exactly sure why you expect something different with World.

There isnt really that many games that are "impossible" without coop imo, sure some can be a little more difficult and playing with friends is always fun but never mandatory.

Outside of the mentioned MH, Destiny 1/2 raids and The Division Raids are the only things that come to mind when it comes to making coop almost mandatory and thats not even the majority of the game
 

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#46
That's no excuse to make a game that's prohibitively difficult to complete with just 1 person.

"Just don't play it" "It's not for you" etc. The OP clearly wants to play the game and is being stymied by its bad design choices.
Ok so then he can make his own game? Really, what choice does he have? Sit here and brood about some game that was designed to be too hard for him, or play something else? I choose git gud or play something else personally...
 
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#47
I think it just takes longer if you're playing solo. I've jumped ontop of a couple monsters and attacked for 1 HP for like a minute and then you get the final blow that actually takes a good portion of life. Then I did it another 2-3 times. That takes a lot of time. Also, If you miss a couple shots with a larger weapon then you have to reposition. In the process of repositioning you have to dodge. Then the monster has to run (e.g. MHW) or you have to get ready for their move to be over with if you've memorized their move set. I feel like MH has always had that feeling to it and MHW was made to make that feeling a lot better.

I finished both Destiny 1 and 2 campaigns and I didn't play the game coop. I didn't really feel bad that I didn't play the raids with other players.

The worst feeling I ever had was thinking I needed a SOS flare and I actually didn't need it. Then at the last strike someone got it. I mean, that feeling alone sucks. They took one shot and they took all the credit for the time I invested into the monster.
 
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#48
That's no excuse to make a game that's prohibitively difficult to complete with just 1 person.

"Just don't play it" "It's not for you" etc. The OP clearly wants to play the game and is being stymied by its bad design choices. It's just a poor way to design a game even if there is a gimmick where you absolutely need 2 players to create some sort of effect - don't make it impossible for the person who bought the game to complete it.

If you're invested you naturally want to play the game. How often do you sit down with a game and have an existential "why am I really playing this?" You enjoy it for what it is regardless of the flaws. I don't see the problem with laying into a game and calling it out for doing some things wrong.
I actually do ask myself if something is worth my time investment. I was heavy into MMOs and I have invested a lot of time into the genre, often at the expense of other things (socially, professionally, personally), so maybe it's a skill you develop -- or don't. There are a lot of games out there, and I think it's perfectly valid to skip on games that exhibit flaws that take away the fun in playing them. If you believe in doing something that isn't fun because you've already invested yourself, this is a very good time to have an internal dialogue. Or don't. It's your time and money, you are free to spend them however you like.
 
#49
I end up relying on CO-OP a little too much with games like Dark Souls. Some bosses I just can't seem to catch a break. Been playing a lot of Monster Hunter also, Generations and World. Some of those High Rank tempered monster fights in World are insane. Nioh is an absolutely disaster for me, I can't beat a boss by myself for the life of me.