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[Buggy Loop]

So as a summary, are people happy that this could be a Tegra X1?

Could Nintendo have done any better for the time & price that Switch launched at?

They were limited by R&D and manufacturing process of one of the best Gpu maker around. They could not have done better by themselves, and certainly not with AMD (for mobile tech at least).

They got Nvidia's best Soc at the moment, which is very un-Nintendo.

Even better than 20nm -> 16nm, they had Nvidia handle the software, API and tools, this has much much more impact than a clueless Nintendo trying to offer modern tools and support for game engines.

 

[RootCause]

Except right now it's not the ideal candidate for that, in this form factor.

If you remove j-cons, it becomes very portable. You should put the switch without cons, next to the NN3DSXL/N3DSXL.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

No I'm not, why would I?, I've never said the hardware is as powerful. I disagreed that Switch is a order of magnitude less powerful than PS4, it clearly isn't as not even raw specs bare that out. Horizon was brought up and I made the point that you can't come to a conclusion on exactly how powerful two systems are comparatively based on looking at two games.

I'm certainly 100% sure better looking games than Zelda will be released on Switch though, significantly better looking.

I dunno what an "order of magnitude" means exactly. Like I said looking at it on paper it's roughly a generation in power behind the base ps4/xb1, and even more so if you compare it to the pro which Sony treats as this generation still.

I agree with you of course that games will look better down the road.

 

[mlclmtckr]

Well, I look at Horizon on a standard PS4 and then I look everything shown for the Switch so far (I know Breath of the Wild is a Wii U port) and Switch still seems like an order of magnitude less, a full generation behind, what was shown on PS4 and Xbox One back in 2013 when those consoles were revealed and launched.

You know that 'order of magnitude' has an actual mathematical meaning right

 

[_sqn_]

And? It's still a terrible move to compare a launch port to a game like Horizon on a more powerful system devs know how to maximize.

Then compare it to Kilzone Shadow Fall and Ryse Son of Rome

 

[GhostTrick]

They were limited by R&D and manufacturing process of one of the best Gpu maker around. They could not have done better by themselves, and certainly not with AMD (for mobile tech at least).

They got Nvidia's best Soc at the moment, which is very un-Nintendo.

Even better than 20nm -> 16nm, they had Nvidia handle the software, API and tools, this has much much more impact than a clueless Nintendo trying to offer modern tools and support for game engines.

They could've got a better GPU clock with 16nm and a twice faster CPU with the same power consumption with A72.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Except right now it's not the ideal candidate for that, in this form factor.

I think for the modern definition of "portable" it works. People consider their tablets portable now and the Switch is not that much different than the largest phablet on the market.

 

[_sqn_]

We kinda figured this but is it 20nm or 16nm? I think most of us were hoping for 16nm so the clocks could run higher and use less energy/produce less heat.

The memory bandwidth aspect seems weird too considering what it's doing vs the WiiU

20nm, its tegra x1, no custom changes.

 

[Donnie]

Ya I was blown away in the first few minutes of BotW after playing Horizon for hours. They both look great in their own rights, but Zelda has much more interaction, hell you can hold a torch under a hanging apple and it will cook it and fall down lol

Yeah one of the first things that hit me was when I could reach some apples, so I just cut the tree down.

Another detail that got me, not interaction or physics related just a lovely detail, was when Link goes down in the lift thingy into a shrine. He sort of jumps when it starts to drop because he wasn't expecting it. But the second time I went down in the same lift, he didn't react. It had happened before so he wasn't surprised anymore by the movement, just a small detail but it just hit me how much effort and thought and love was put into the game.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I dunno what an "order of magnitude" means exactly. Like I said looking at it on paper it's roughly a generation in power behind the base ps4/xb1, and even more so if you compare it to the pro which Sony treats as this generation still.

I agree with you of course that games will look better down the road.

Raw flops performance for chasing 4K has so little return in eye candies for the majority of gamers/casuals out there. It will only guarantee that Switch visuals are not thaaaat far behind on a 720p handheld for years to come.

 

[Lonely1]

So as a summary, are people happy that this could be a Tegra X1?

Could Nintendo have done any better for the time & price that Switch launched at?

As a console, is Wii U part two. As a handheld, is the most powerfull handheld Nintendo has ever released relative to its time.

 

[Buggy Loop]

They could've got a better GPU clock with 16nm and a twice faster CPU with the same power consumption with A72.

But that's the thing, they could not. It does not exist. Nvidia does not have that product. The denver ones for deep learning is not gaming/handheld ready.

 

[_sqn_]

But that's the thing, they could not. It does not exist. Nvidia does not have that product. The denver ones for deep learning is not gaming/handheld ready.

Lol I will write it 3rd time, Nvidia sells tegra x2 (parker, pascal based) now with jetson.

 

[Lonely1]

Lol I will write in 3rd time, Nvidia sells tegra x2 (parker, pascal based) now with jetson.

That's a car chip.

 

[RootCause]

But that's the thing, they could not. It does not exist. Nvidia does not have that product. The denver ones for deep learning is not gaming/handheld ready.

I think the A72 is already in released products, but I don't think it's twice the performance at same power consumption. I'd like to see real world performance to back that up.

 

[_sqn_]

That's a car chip.

So was tegra x1 in jetson earlier edition?

 

[Lonely1]

So was tegra x1 in jetson earlier edition?

Yes, but it also shipped on non-car consumer products.

 

[_sqn_]

Yes, but it also shipped on non-car consumer products.

lol

 

[Donnie]

I dunno what an "order of magnitude" means exactly. Like I said looking at it on paper it's roughly a generation in power behind the base ps4/xb1, and even more so if you compare it to the pro which Sony treats as this generation still.

I agree with you of course that games will look better down the road.

A order of magnitude means 10x. XBox One is about 6x XBox 360. XBox One is 3x Switch (purely on paper specs, in reality Switch is closer IMO). But for me even on paper specs alone that puts Switch in the middle.

One strange thing with all this generation difference talk if you consider PS4 Pro to still be in the current generation . The difference between XBox One and PS4 Pro on paper is bigger than the difference between XBox One and Switch. But Switch is a generation behind XBox One, while XBox One is in the same generation with PS4 Pro?

Maybe we should just stop doing the whole generation based on power thing?

 

[th4tguy]

I understand people being unhappy with the switch performance as a standalone console, but it's not a standalone console. It's also a portable system and it was NEVER going to be as powerful as the xbone or ps4 and still be portable. We got a great hybrid system and I think it has already proven that it's a very viable way to move forward. I can only hope we get a ps4 hybrid sometime in the future that will let me play my ps4 games on the go as well.

 

[Oregano]

Lol I will write it 3rd time, Nvidia sells tegra x2 (parker, pascal based) now with jetson.

It's going to be available for the first time next month. How many units do you think they will be producing?

There's probably been more chips fabbed for Switch this week than there will be for Jetson boards ever.

 

[DigitalScrap]

Lol I will write it 3rd time, Nvidia sells tegra x2 (parker, pascal based) now with jetson.

Even forgetting the fact that the Tegra X2 still isn't available for consumer applications yet, the chipset simply was not ready at the time. Unless you think that Nintendo should have waited another 10 months or so (if not longer) to launch the Switch.

Myself, I'm completely happy with the Switch being released with an X1 - it truly is an amazing handheld gaming experience (that will only get better).

 

[Lonely1]

lol

lol? Okay, noce to know you have no more points.

 

[RootCause]

lol

That doesn't necessarily mean it was available. You also have to take into account the system was being worked on years before the TX2 was conceived, and they had to mass produce the system for March.
Schedules play a large role.

 

[Xenoblade]

Switch shouldn't be compared to XB1 or PS4. You're expected to buy either of those AND a Switch. If you're working any decent job and life hasn't fucked you over (yet) then this shouldn't be a problem.

 

[_sqn_]

It's going to be available for the first time next month. How many units do you think they will be producing?

There's probably been more chips fabbed for Switch this week than there will be for Jetson boards ever.

Its shipping since 14 March so its obvious that it was possible to put it in switch or if not on March than wait one quarter as console is for years and tx2 would make difference.

 

[Plinko]

Then compare it to Kilzone Shadow Fall and Ryse Son of Rome

And I'm fine with that if you want to ignore that the Switch is basically a handheld. Comparing it to a technical marvel like Horizon is beyond stupid.

 

[Lonely1]

Its shipping since 14 March so its obvious that it was possible to put it in switch or if not on March than wait one quarter as console is for years and tx2 would make difference.

Tegra has been pitched as a mobile/Tv chip up to TX1. TX2 has been pitched as a car chip and a car chip only.

 

[DigitalScrap]

Switch shouldn't be compared to XB1 or PS4. You're expected to buy either of those AND a Switch. If you're working any decent job and life hasn't fucked you over this shouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, these comparisons/expectations don't make any sense. I mean, just looking at the Switch form factor should make it quite obvious to anyone that the Switch wouldn't be as powerful as the MUCH larger consoles that are X1 and PS4. To me, all these comparos that don't take simple common sense physics into account are just more fanboy nonsense.

 

[_sqn_]

And I'm fine with that if you want to ignore that the Switch is basically a handheld. Comparing it to a technical marvel like Horizon is beyond stupid.

Indeed it is but someone says games on it looks generation ahead and thats true don't know why somebody argue with that saying that Horizon is not launch title. So I give example launch title and almost launch title.

 

[_sqn_]

Tegra has been marketed as a mobile/Tv set chip up to TX1. TX2 has been marketed as a car chip and a car chip only.

lol second time, so what? It has similar power consumption, simillar size, its just newer generation of tegra

 

[Oregano]

Its shipping since 14 March so its obvious that it was possible to put it in switch or if not on March than wait one quarter as console is for years and tx2 would make difference.

How many Jetsons are they making? Is the chip ready for mass production? Switch shipped over a million units day 1.

Could they have manufactured a million by next quarter, how much would that cost? What's the yield like?

 

[Plinko]

Indeed it is but someone says games on it looks generation ahead and thats true don't know why somebody argue with that saying that Horizon is not launch title. So I give example launch title and almost launch title.

Because A) it's a handheld vs. a console and B) these systems take years for even first parties to maximize. It has never made sense to compare launch games with games released years into a lifespan. Launch titles from that system? Sure, why not. No issue with that whatsoever.

Regardless, the Switch will never compete with PS4/XB1 in graphics. It wasn't built with the internals to do that, and I don't believe it was positioned in the market to do so.

 

[DigitalScrap]

How many Jetsons are they making? Is the chip ready for mass production? Switch shipped over a million units day 1?

Could they have manufactured a million by next quarter, how much would that cost? What's the yield like?

Of course not. But some people will continue to ignore real world logistics and manufacturing processes I guess.

 

[_sqn_]

Because A) it's a handheld vs. a console and B) these systems take years for even first parties to maximize. It has never made sense to compare launch games with games released years into a lifespan. Launch titles from that system? Sure, why not. No issue with that whatsoever.

Regardless, the Switch will never compete with PS4/XB1 in graphics. It wasn't built with the internals to do that, and I don't believe it was positioned in the market to do so.

b) Thats why I gave example of Killzone Shadow Fall and Ryse....

 

[Cuburt]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PY37w7wxLFE


Remember, this was what the K1 is capable of. Some of these scenes are more than good enough for Nintendo's purposes.

The X1 is even more powerful than this chip.

It's more about games, and whether or not the Switch will take the reigns from the 3DS or from the Wii U...

We also know the Switch is compatible with the full version of UE4, meaning most games that utilize that engine will at least at access to all of it's features.

Even if Switch won't be able to push as many polys or particles or pixels, it should, at a fundamental level, have much more in common with the other hardware than Nintendo's past hardware has had.

Given how many SKUs multiplatform games will now have to scale to be able to work well (XB1, Scorpio, PS4, PS4 Pro, PC), the Switch has a much better tech argument for why it could be supported.

 

[_sqn_]

How many Jetsons are they making? Is the chip ready for mass production? Switch shipped over a million units day 1.

Could they have manufactured a million by next quarter, how much would that cost? What's the yield like?

And how many jetson on tegra x1 did they manufacture? 16nm is mature process now

 

[Lonely1]

lol second time, so what? It has similar power consumption, simillar size, its just newer generation of tegra

The denver cores don't even activate at sub 10w... and why it looks like it won't be used on anything but cars?

 

[Oregano]

And how many jetson on tegra x1 did they manufacture? 16nm is mature process now

A fraction of the amount of Switch they've already manufactured most likely.

 

[mlclmtckr]

I realized something in 2012 that has only gotten more true for me as I've gotten older. I don't think I care very much about graphics any more.

That year saw FTL, Fez, Hotline Miami, Spelunky, Mark of the Ninja, Journey, Skullgirls, and Legend of Grimrock come out among other indies. I found all those games so exciting - they were fresh where the AAA output was getting more and more stale.

It seemed like all the big-budget games had over the indies was graphics, but the amount of money and corporate oversight that those graphics entailed was also making those projects safe and boring and homogenous. Even the games from big developers that I did like - Sleeping Dogs, XCom, Spec Ops The Line, Asura's Wrath - were not being sold on their graphics.

Since then there have been, of course, some AAA graphics-intensive games that I've liked, but I've always been a little apprehensive about what pixel chasing means for creativity or innovation in the industry.

So, personally, the Switch might be powerful enough. I still want those AAA third parties, butI don't really care what effects they turn off. I also want indies, and carefully designed artistically coherent first party AAAs (like BOTW), and lots of retro and obscure titles.

It's on Nintendo to get the software on there. In terms of raw computing power they have more than enough to work with (imo, of course). Hopefully they can execute.

 

[Fafalada]

I think it's actually quite an achievement what Nintendo has done with the Switch in that it's slightly more powerful than the 360/PS3.

After 11 years - 3DS was slightly more powerful than a PS2 too.

 

[_sqn_]

The denver cores don't even activate at sub 10w...

wrong, https://devblogs.nvidia.com/parallelforall/jetson-tx2-delivers-twice-intelligence-edge/ for the same performance tegra x2 take half of W of tegra x1

 

[DigitalScrap]

wrong, https://devblogs.nvidia.com/parallelforall/jetson-tx2-delivers-twice-intelligence-edge/ for the same performance tegra x2 take half of W of tegra x1

Huang himself has said that the TX2 is not suitable for, and is not targeted at, mobile applications. Why do you insist on ignoring this fact. Also, he has only said to investors that yields are "good", and that is relative to the small number of TX2s that they are targeting to edge machine learning and the in car applications. Someone can't just go to Nvidia and say "make the TX2 available for mobile applications. Thanks." That's not how any of this works...

 

[_sqn_]

Huang himself has said that the TX2 is not suitable for

I just linked benchmark that tegra x2 can match tegra x1 results using half of power and you still belive in this bullshit? :d And I would appreciate link for this Huang statement

 

[Lonely1]

wrong, https://devblogs.nvidia.com/parallelforall/jetson-tx2-delivers-twice-intelligence-edge/ for the same performance tegra x2 take half of W of tegra x1

Do you even read your own sources? Or what are you are replying too? From your source, is pretty clear that Jetson TX2 is a car/AI chip. No mention of graphic capabilities at all, and even its low power mode is too hungry for a handheld gaming device. Is clearly a car chip.

And denver activate at 15W:

 

[notaskwid]

b) Thats why I gave example of Killzone Shadow Fall and Ryse....

What's the point? Both have better graphics than Zelda as they should on much more powerful consoles.
They also seem to have a better performance as per DF.

 

[Plinko]

b) Thats why I gave example of Killzone Shadow Fall and Ryse....

And, as I said, I'm fine with that if you insist on calling it a console.

I mean, look at the thread title--they used a mobile chip. It wasn't meant to ever compete.

 

[DigitalScrap]

I just linked benchmark that tegra x2 can match tegra x1 results using half of power and you still belive in this bullshit? :d And I would appreciate link for this Huang statement

I may go and look it up for you when I have more time, but you can read here what Nvidia is targeting with the TX2 chip. https://www.forbes.com/sites/patric...ing-with-high-quality-customers/#77dac77938ac

They are NOT targeting the TX2 for Switch type applications - these chips have been designed for very specific use cases...

Jetson, by design, isn't targeted at every embedded device, it's for those non-mobile devices who need strong deep neural network performance at a given power draw.

 

[_sqn_]

Do you even read your own sources? Or what are you are replying too? From your source, is pretty clear that Jetson TX2 is a car/AI chip. No mention of graphic capabilities at all, and even its low power mode is too hungry for a handheld gaming device. Is clearly a car chip.

And denver activate at 15W:

lol 3rd and last time cause its waste of time I gave link to devblogs.nvidia.com and you give me to anandtech, on devblogs.nvidia.com it was proven that tx2 can have simillar performance as tx1 using half of power(~5w vs ~10w) and 1.3x - 1.4x more using simillar power(10w)). And genius, you can set clock as you want depends of what power consumption is ok for you (thats why switch has downclocked tx1).

 

[gconsole]

Exactly, it was all marketting bullshit so as not to hurt the 3DS and to make Wii U people feel a little comfort that their previous, shitty console would be replaced. I guarantee Nintendo has planned for this to be a 3DS replacement. Why wouldn't they? 60million vs what, 13.5?

Nintendo want it to be both. Is the concept of hybrid machine so alient to you or some people here so u cannot comprehent or something? Hybrid means u will get better than normal handheld machine and less powerful than normal console. It is so obvious in the spec. Ur logic is weird saying Nintendo is scare to replace 3DS when they release 3DS to replace DS and release DS to replace gameboy. Why would they scare to release next iteration of their machien? It is like saying Sony scare to replace PS4 with PS5 or something.

Nintendo never market this as a console in the first place. They market it as a hybrid since the first trailer. A machine that u can play in portable and console mode. What the hell r u smoking. And why do u say they try to make WiiU owner comfort by saying this is a console machine? That will actually cause the opposite, nobody feel comfort knowing that there machine will get replace after 2 years.

Im totally lost here.