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[Toxi]

I find it weird that a video complaining about a game designed to be exciting for spectators uses the spectator excitement of EVO 37 as part of the argument.

Like are we talking about how Street Fighter V fails to be enjoyable for the players (as the rest of the video suggests) or how it fails to be enjoyable for stream monsters who want to watch moments like EVO 37?

 

[Ucchedavāda]

If anything, giving people more defensive options & ways to use the V-Gague would help give casuals a fighting chance.

I don't think giving people more options will help give casuals a fighting chance. Against other casuals, sure, but then was already the case. Against veterans? No. The veterans are also getting access to those options, and they will be using them much more efficiently than the casuals.

 

[Zackat]

I will never, ever understand this want for more execution nonsense in fighting games.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

short version is basically stop making games for people who don't give a fuck about playing them,because it makes them worse

you don't have to mess with the competitive gameplay side of things to make a fighting game appealing, just give newcomers the bells and whistles and single player shit and be done with it

The removal of 1-frame links via a 3-frame buffer is one of my favorite things about SFV, and I think even KoFXIII has a buffer too for easier comboing.

1/60th of a second timing was never fun for me, and was a nightmare online.

Everything else about SFV I can take or leave, but if I never had to deal with 1-frame links again I would not cry.

It wasn't really necessary though. If SFIV had just allowed you to special cancel lights that you chained into, you'd have basic combos without needing links, while those who can do them consistently would have an advantage which would make sense.

I don't agree with Sirlin about everything, but I think his remarks from his design overview of Street Fighter 2 HD Remix are true and relevant:

Nah. This "real game" thing is just a way of trying to reduce the game to the parts of it that he likes. Execution is part of the game not in the way of it.

 

[sephi22]

I find it weird that a video complaining about a game designed to be exciting for spectators uses the spectator excitement of EVO 37 as part of the argument.

Like are we talking about how Street Fighter V fails to be enjoyable for the players (as the rest of the video suggests) or how it fails to be enjoyable for stream monsters who want to watch moments like EVO 37?

For both. Evo moment 37 is exciting because of the skill involved, which cannot happen in this game because of lack of high execution. The game is made to be exciting for casual/non-fighting game crowd to expand its popularity to the niche fighting game audience, who cannot tell what's happening while watching a game like Marvel vs Capcom for example

I will never, ever understand this want for more execution nonsense in fighting games.

Do you watch sports? If everyone could throw 3-pointers like Steph Curry, it wouldn't be as exciting when he does it. Same concept.

 

[Cyrus]

Man that's the one I hate the most about street fighter 5 now that it's more "accessible"

The loss of player expression ... amazing executing players like Sako , Smug , countless others are straight up neutered in this game. You seen one top Karin ... you seen them all, you see one Mika, Rashid, Balrog , Bison, Dhalsim. Yes they still win but the style is most definitely gone completely from SFV.

What??

Watch Punk's Karin vs any other Karin. Ther'es such a huge difference it's not even funny, even Mago's Karin.

 

[lucebuce12]

short version is basically stop making games for people who don't give a fuck about playing them,because it makes them worse

you don't have to mess with the competitive gameplay side of things to make a fighting game appealing, just give newcomers the bells and whistles and single player shit and be done with it

This is EXACTLY what IJ2 does.

It has easy enough execution so that casuals can still pull off stuff, it has cool looking special moves that are easy to do and dope ass supers that are always fun to do. It also has a ton of single player content for those who don't wish to fight other people.

But if you are a competitive player, then you'll still find a game with long combos, decent execution requirements, a lot of tools and generally a lot of options.

Making it accessible to newcomers and to casuals DIDN'T come at the expense of making the game less fun to play or spectate at a high level. And I don't know why Capcpom doesn't get this because they're the ones that have this as a major issue.

KoF XIV, Tekken 7, IJ2, Guilty Gear Xrd Rev. They all have the cool stuff so that casuals can still have fun but they didn't compromise on higher level play.

 

[Zackat]

For both. Evo moment 37 is exciting because of the skill involved, which cannot happen in this game because of lack of high execution. The game is made to be exciting for casual/non-fighting game crowd to expand its popularity to the niche fighting game audience, who cannot tell what's happening while watching a game like Marvel vs Capcom for example


Do you watch sports? If everyone could throw 3-pointers like Steph Curry, it wouldn't be as exciting when he does it. Same concept.

so because only steph can shoot 3 pointers well, we should gate off a large portion of people from being able to shoot 3's that well so that it stays exciting.

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

so because only steph can shoot 3 pointers well, we should gate off a large portion of people from being able to shoot 3's that well so that it stays exciting.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Something requiring practice doesn't mean people are "gated off" from doing it. It means they have to practice if they want to do it.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

so because only steph can shoot 3 pointers well, we should gate off a large portion of people from being able to shoot 3's that well so that it stays exciting.

Am I understanding this correctly?

what kind of logic did you take from that?

 

[sephi22]

Making it accessible to newcomers and to casuals DIDN'T come at the expense of making the game less fun to play or spectate at a high level. And I don't know why Capcpom doesn't get this because they're the ones that have this as a major issue.

KoF XIV, Tekken 7, IJ2, Guilty Gear Xrd Rev. They all have the cool stuff so that casuals can still have fun but they didn't compromise on higher level play.

Capcom has always been skimpy on content besides Alpha World Tour. Normally they just add Arcade, Survival, Time Attack and call it a day. But for most games that was enough because their games had a high amount of polish, style or 'feel' to them.

I've been playing fighting games since a kid but I'm an 09er when it comes to playing them competitively, and it was amazing watching every developer try twice as hard as Capcom to sway Capcom /FGC players to their side. From Blazblue adding fully voiced VN story mode, to MK9's god tier story mode, to Tekken 6's scenario mode and TTT'2 insane roster and free dlc. It was a sight to behold, and sadly despite blazblue having god tier netcode compared to SF or KOF13 being 'pure, honest fighting' Capcom games still ruled the roost. I have to admit that despite playing these games, I still kept coming back to SF4 series and UMvC3 (favorite fighting game). Capcom didn't have to go the extra mile but they still had the magic.

Then SFxT happened and you could see that they are not infallible. And the total bungling of SFV was out of left field, but in hindsight it's a welcome change. Not only are other developers rightly being shoved into the spotlight, but Capcom has to finally catch up to features added by their competitors while they were coasting last gen.

Seriously no one thought a couple of years ago that an NRS game would be considered a better game than a mainline SF, or that Guilty Gear being the best fighting game out on the market would be a unanimous opinion, but here we are.

so because only steph can shoot 3 pointers well, we should gate off a large portion of people from being able to shoot 3's that well so that it stays exciting.

Am I understanding this correctly?

No you're not understanding this currently. Nothing in SF4 stops you from doing Sako's combos besides your shitty execution, and nothing in Basketball stops me from shooting 3 pointers like Steph besides my fat ass. I pay good money to go to Evo and see Daigo work his magic because he's put in the work that I haven't. If everyone and their mom could do the same, I'd rather stay at home.

 

[Zackat]

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

 

[TheTylerRob]

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

Did you watch the video that this thread is about?

 

[lucebuce12]

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

This might just be my take on it but I don't think ANYBODY has said that the easy execution is the issue in SFV. It's the lack of variety in combos, the fact that combos in SFV give you damage/stun and oki by the fistfull and the incredibly gimped CC and neutral which means that the game often just comes to down predictive play.

When the skill gap is mentioned, it's not the execution but rather the style of play. In every single fighting game, you could learn a jump-in combo that takes away 80% of your lifebar, have it rife with 1-frame links and everything. Still doesn't mean jack shit if your opponent blocks your jumpins or constantly is AAing you.

But with the SFV design, AA simply is not that straight forward. Even blocking a jumpin leads to situations where the defender is always at a disadvantage.

 

[Toxi]

For both. Evo moment 37 is exciting because of the skill involved, which cannot happen in this game because of lack of high execution. The game is made to be exciting for casual/non-fighting game crowd to expand its popularity to the niche fighting game audience, who cannot tell what's happening while watching a game like Marvel vs Capcom for example

Makes sense. So the lesson here then is that these changes to accessibility don't actually make a better spectator game.

The video is totally right about offensive options being so powerful because it feels better for spectators. Part of the reason Smash Bros Melee was able to be so popular for so long is that the game gives an absurd number of offensive options. So a match is just incredibly dynamic; even if it's defensive, I find watching a good Jigglypuff or Peach zoning exciting because one fuck up can lead to death. Unfortunately, it sounds like Street Fighter V went too far in this direction. I think the key here is that defensive failure should be punishing, but offensive success should require skill (including execution skill).

Speaking as mainly a spectator myself; I try my best at Melee, but I'm pretty garbage.

 

[Lumination]

So there two main points in the video re: reducing the skill gap: combos and input lag.

I've always preferred the GG/BB school of comboing. While SF doesn't have to adopt 20 string combos, the idea that the difficulty of a combo comes from decision making based on starter, distance, and opponent size over incredibly strict link timing is more my jam. 3F links are STILL difficult, but not stupidly so. It feels like an artificial filter on competitive play. Parries are a difficult animal because those have always been about extreme risk/reward. Idk why the video didn't really go into the real problem with combos in SFV, the huge damage and stun.

The input lag is inexcusable. People want Street Fighter, not 2d RPS.

 

[sephi22]

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

Rocket jumping in quake is cool, but it's not what I find exciting. I don't understand the need for it.
Aerials in Rocket League are cool, but they're not what I find exciting. I don't understand the need for them.
Multiple unit micro in Dota 2 is cool, but I don't find it exciting. I don't understand the need for it.
Wavedashes in Smash are cool....
EWGF in Tekken is cool...
etc.

You basically want to end any kind of skill barrier between people when it comes to games, so I recomment Divekick or Nidhogg.

Makes sense. So the lesson here then is that these changes to accessibility don't actually make a better spectator game.

Based on internet reactions, no. Perhaps they expected it to sell a lot more and become a phenomenon a la Overwatch or LoL, but that didn't happen. So I can't say if your average gamer who doesn't play fighting games finds it better to watch than other fighting games, because not many of them exist that like this game.

The matches are still hype to watch because of personalities like Punk, but that's because of the Capcom FGC and not because of the game. Hopefully a hype game like Marvel can bring some life back into the scene because the new school players like NuckleDu and Punk are very fun to watch, even in a game that's not very fun.

I've always preferred the GG/BB school of comboing. While SF doesn't have to adopt 20 string combos, the idea that the difficulty of a combo comes from decision making based on starter, distance, and opponent size over incredibly strict link timing is more my jam. 3F links are STILL difficult, but not stupidly so. It feels like an artificial filter on competitive play. Parries are a difficult animal because those have always been about extreme risk/reward

I think the Capcom community would riot if they got anime combos in a Street Fighter game (though the same combos in MvC are fine)

 

[Toxi]

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

Execution skill allows for a feeling of self-improvement and accomplishment, because there is always the potential to get better. I have a friend who's a huge Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 fan and he loves Dante, even though he gets better results with characters like Taskmaster and Vergil. Why? Because he can always get better with Dante thanks to the character's higher execution with bold cancels. And he's gotten a lot better with the game in general as a result.

That's a key part of why some people like fighting games.

 

[Neoxon]

I probably should've specified this earlier. My mention of the input buffer not being the problem is referencing James Chen's tweets on the matter.

I have always considered the new Input Buffer to be one of the bigger culprits of snowballing problems with SFV. Well, it has nothing to do with combos, it makes Frame Traps and punishes and Frame Kills too precise. There's so little room for human error, so the game is too scientific. Mixups got standardized.

As I mentioned earlier, there were previously combos in SFIV that you couldn't do online due to one frame links. So yeah, keep the input buffer, but give other means of coming up with unique combos (and no, universal Focus Attack shouldn't be the answer).

 

[molnizzle]

I stopped playing SFV because the execution barrier was still too high for me.

FGC needs a reality check. There aren't that many of y'all.

 

[MrCarter]

I will never, ever understand this want for more execution nonsense in fighting games.

Me neither. I think what Capcom has done with SFV in terms of execution is pretty good and is in the right direction for the whole of SF audience, from casual to pro players alike, and anything else that needs to be improved can be done over time.

 

[Tripon]

I stopped playing SFV because the execution barrier was still too high for me.

FGC needs a reality check. There aren't that many of y'all.

What was exactly hard for you in the game?

 

[Neoxon]

I stopped playing SFV because the execution barrier was still too high for me.

FGC needs a reality check. There aren't that many of y'all.

Then I guess fighting games aren't really your thing. SFV is one of the easiest fighting games to get into (besides Smash & ARMS).

 

[Lumination]

I think the Capcom community would riot if they got anime combos in a Street Fighter game (though the same combos in MvC are fine)

Not asking for anime combos. More like, if my c.mk hit you closer, I can link into a sweep vs just a hadouken. I know there are cases like this, but I think if you wanted to add combo complexity, I'd do that before going back to 1f links.

 

[direct_quote]

I think the video is off a little bit. A lot of games include higher input lag to making lag compensation easier (and making online play closer to offline). Yes that does affect certain reactions, but why doesn't Tekken and Smash 4(lol fighting game) get shit for that. IJ2 adds a couple frames of input lag to online to reduce the amount of rollback (which you can normalize offline in settings if you want to offline feel like online with the 1-2f extra).

And I'm fine with reducing the execution requirements on button presses, because I actually have more fun in SFV being able to complete combos more consistently then in SF4. Where SFV could see improvement is in more combo mechanics (or adding back lights to mediums/heavies without counter-hit like in the beta). But even given that SFV doesn't have FADC mechanic (and no custom combos like other games), or the crazy juggle system of 3s and other games so combos will not be that complicated by default. So maybe adding more variations with lights into mediums might add at least some situations to be different then medium -> everything.

Also I think SFV needs to branch out with more playstyles and making zoning viable again. Add better overall anti-air hitboxes, speed up some moves, and add some more defensive options like better backdashes, buff v-reversals, get rid of most throw loops, etc.

 

[pizzacat]

I stopped playing SFV because the execution barrier was still too high for me.

FGC needs a reality check. There aren't that many of y'all.

you're right

as ryo i dont understand why they dont make one button all his special moves

you press the button and a fireball comes out, twice and his uppercut comes out

it just makes sense

 

[Ucchedavāda]

you're right

as ryo i dont understand why they dont make one button all his special moves

you press the button and a fireball comes out, twice and his uppercut comes out

it just makes sense

They just made a character like that: Ed.

 

[JayEH]

I liked what Momochi once suggested in an interview. You can still have the input buffer in SFV but there should be a "Just Frame" version of links that do more damage and also it's clearly displayed on the screen when you do it. That way both more casual players, pros, and viewers get satisfaction from watching/playing the game.

 

[pizzacat]

They just made a character like that: Ed.

why cant i have an option to make ryo like that

like custom fighters in smash

having more options is better

 

[Neoxon]

I liked what Momochi once suggested in an interview. You can still have the input buffer in SFV but there should be a "Just Frame" version of links that do more damage and also it's clearly displayed on the screen when you do it. That way both more casual players, pros, and viewers get satisfaction from watching/playing the game.

But you still run into the issue of Just Frame combos being impossible to do online.

 

[MrCarter]

This is EXACTLY what IJ2 does.

It has easy enough execution so that casuals can still pull off stuff, it has cool looking special moves that are easy to do and dope ass supers that are always fun to do. It also has a ton of single player content for those who don't wish to fight other people.

But if you are a competitive player, then you'll still find a game with long combos, decent execution requirements, a lot of tools and generally a lot of options.

Making it accessible to newcomers and to casuals DIDN'T come at the expense of making the game less fun to play or spectate at a high level. And I don't know why Capcpom doesn't get this because they're the ones that have this as a major issue.

KoF XIV, Tekken 7, IJ2, Guilty Gear Xrd Rev. They all have the cool stuff so that casuals can still have fun but they didn't compromise on higher level play.

I disagree. I think injustice is far more easier and scrub friendly (he even highlights that in the video) than SFV because of the input buffer and long chain combos you can mash out - it's one of the reasons why casuals like it so much. KoF14 also is far more easier than KoF13. Tekken is probably one of those games that hasn't changed much since it's inception and GG is obviously too complex for casuals to play or gain an understanding of.

SFV is a great game to spectate, judging by the stream numbers in tournies and there are a lot of high level players (Daigo, Eita, Fuudo, Tokido etc) that enjoy the game yet they still drop combos but that's just not the narrative at he moment unfortunately. I think what Capcom got wrong was not having enough single-player content for casuals but the execution and battle system has a very solid foundation they can build upon.

 

[Trup1aya]

Amazing vid. I think the principles apply to more than just fighters

 

[Arc Christelle]

Don't think SFV is more fun to watch compare to SF4.
Everyone use same combo, same few characters, if that's balanced around spectator point of view, they are doing poor job.

I remember I used to say the same shit about SFIV. I like SFV better, but it still has that Dimps rust that most of their games both in Street Fighter and outside with other games they work on where something is always not right.

I think SFV will hopefully improve with later installments. After taking the time to play it or a bit after I beefed up my pc, just found myself dropping it. I play it casually now and then, but I don't really expect my Vega or hell Vega in general to make it that far. (I really don't like his options as a character)

I just will never get why there needs to be some sort of huge execution barrier. Big combos are cool, but that isn't what I find exciting in these games. To each their own I guess.

Keep projecting those fears baby.

=======================================

Anyway, I think there should be skill gaps between novice, intermediate, and high level play. Make high level only alluring to people who want to commit to that level but also entice people to be happy playing with their friends on an intermediate level. Not everyone has to live the dream of going to EVO, just make it both entertaining and alluring, when people pull high level stuff off, I think the thing you'd want people to feel is "Woah that's amazing!" or "I want to do that!" That's what always motivated me to play those games. When the skill gap is lowered I just get bored.


Also I wish Capcom/Dimps would stop doing shit that dictates how the players play and just provide tools that allow us to express ourselves. I feel as if this has been an issue since IV, and I know some are looking back at IV fondly (for some reason) but that shit was far from a great SF and still isn't (imo).

I also don't like how heavily character match-up is emphasized in this game. But then again that's more from observation, I would dedicate more time to making that a valid argument but I'm not gonna front, I don't like SFV THAT much, but I don't mind playing a couple of rounds in it like every other SF except IV.

Side note: I remember a year or so back people were acting like regulating Parry to an input would make it better, and I told them that shit was a bad idea. I gotta go back through the archives.

Anyway, back to XIV.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

i wonder why he doesn't use Tekken as an example (input lag is on the same level as SFV afaik)

But the fastest moves in SF are 3frames, You never really deal with anything under 8frames(which is like 2 moves everything else is 10 and up) in Tekken so it doesn't hurt the game.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

I stopped playing SFV because the execution barrier was still too high for me.

FGC needs a reality check. There aren't that many of y'all.

Not the game's fault at this point. Just because you can't do the things doesn't mean the games are flawed.

Like when do you as a player realize that shit is on you?

 

[JayEH]

But you still run into the issue of Just Frame combos being impossible to do online.

well that'd be fine imo. Offline and online play will always be different. It wouldn't be like IV where you only had the 1f links as an option.

 

[zenspider]

Man that's the one I hate the most about street fighter 5 now that it's more "accessible"

The loss of player expression ... amazing executing players like Sako , Smug , countless others are straight up neutered in this game. You seen one top Karin ... you seen them all, you see one Mika, Rashid, Balrog , Bison, Dhalsim. Yes they still win but the style is most definitely gone completely from SFV.

I don't disagree with the sentiment but I think you're wrong regarding players styles - nobody plays Mika like Fuudo, Xian's Ibuki looks completely different Punk's Infiltration's, JWong and Punk's Karin as well. Knuckledu and Daigo's Guile; Momochi and Chris T's Ken; Itazan and Snake Eye's Zangief.
There's playstyles amongst characters, though maybe not as much. I think most Ken's Chun's, and Yun's in 3S look identical at this point - maybe it just happened sooner in SFV?

I think more of the "expression" is in resets and setups as all big damage combos are optimized pretty quickly after any updates.

My biggest issue with SFV isn't the input leniency or generally easier combos, but the inability to react to almost anything. SFV is way too focused on reads, and it's made the neutral awful. Whiff punishes are essentially reads now.

That, plus characters like Ibuki, Balrog, Urien, Laura, Necalli, Ken and to a degree Mika have such big comeback potential, they become unconditionable because YOLO->V-Trigger->one touch win.

And Smug seems like a real contender in season 2, I don't see how you can say he's been neutered.

 

[fireflame]

Games like Rival Schools, Tekken 3, Soul Edge, felt very accessible back then.

 

[TGMIII]

And I'm not sure if I'm proving his point. Variance is better for a game than people want to give credit for. If you want more money in esports, you want it to be more like poker and less like chess. People respect chess, but poker makes people feel emotionally engaged. This is as someone who was my school chess champion and someone who played poker for a living.

If that was true, how do you explain the success of games like Starcraft, Quake, Dota & Counter-strike throughout various eras in competitive gaming?

 

[pizzacat]

Games like Rival Schools, Tekken 3, Soul Edge, felt very accessible back then.

where is rival schools 2, tekken 4 and soul edge 2 these days

i swear the games meant for regular people like us are nowhere to be seen these days

 

[FadedRevolution]

Games like Rival Schools, Tekken 3, Soul Edge, felt very accessible back then.

Its easy to say those games were much more accessible when you didn't have daily streamed tournaments and online play.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

If that was true, how do you explain the success of games like Starcraft, Quake, Dota & Counter-strike throughout various eras in competitive gaming?

Before even getting to that, why is the assumption that fighting game players should all be for "more money in e-sports".

 

[Sinatar]

You know you're a little too far up your own ass when "Look! Anyone can do combos in this game!" is being touted as a negative.

 

[oneils]

Uh wait the "daigo parry" actually required 15 parries? I had no idea what I was watching whenever that video came up.

It now make a whole lot more sense. I literally thought he was just holding down one button lol.

 

[Neoxon]

well that'd be fine imo. Offline and online play will always be different. It wouldn't be like IV where you only had the 1f links as an option.

True, but online should be just as much of a practicing ground as offline locals, hence why I fully support the buffer (for the record, I go to locals every Thursday).

Just Frame links in addition to the usual buffered links are a good idea on paper, but it's how the netcode may handle them that concerns me.

 

[fireflame]

Its easy to say those games were much more accessible when you didn't have daily streamed tournaments and online play.

Burning vigor atacks in Rival Schools could be done with a single key(bouncer) and the few people I played with were complete noobs and still able to do combos.

Tekken 3 allowed to set convienet shortcust that made it easy to trigger character's coolest moves.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

why cant i have an option to make ryo like that

like custom fighters in smash

having more options is better

I don't know. You will have to ask Capcom.
For all I know they never even considered this possibility.

 

[decoyplatypus]

It sums up very well the biggest issue for competitive SFV. The game is clearly being balanced around a spectator point of view, and not a competitor point of view

If Capcom is balancing around the spectator's perspective, they are deluded about what makes a good viewing experience. I can only speak for myself of course, but as a spectator who plays maybe 30 minutes a month, many of the things that pros complain about (lack of defense, endless 50/50s where one bad read = death, limited combo variety) also make me less excited to watch SF5 tournaments.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

The video is spot on. I can't remember the last time I bothered to watch a SFV major. The game is just boring to watch. As a spectator, I want to be in awe of what I'm seeing, to see the limits of a game pushed beyond what I could have imagined. That's why the Daigo parry is iconic. I don't get that with SFV.

I dont like NRS games but Injustice 2 looks way more hype than SFV. AND it's got the bells and whistles to please its casual crowd. Just do that Capcom.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

I find it weird that a video complaining about a game designed to be exciting for spectators uses the spectator excitement of EVO 37 as part of the argument.

Like are we talking about how Street Fighter V fails to be enjoyable for the players (as the rest of the video suggests) or how it fails to be enjoyable for stream monsters who want to watch moments like EVO 37?

It's about how it fails both