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Could PS5 have 2 GPUs?
- Thread starter truth411
- Start date
Caayn
Member
Yes it can, no it's not practical.
- Distributing a workload across multiple GPUs isn't cost free, due to inefficiencies and overhead. Two smaller GPUs will lose compared to one GPU even if the two setups have the same peak performance on paper.
- More and more rendering techniques rely on data from previous frames which isn't ideal when using a multi GPU setup.
- Connecting two pieces of silicon, each with their own bus will cost more than one larger piece of silicon.
- If the next-gen console will use a similar memory setup as current gen (which is likely) this means that the available bandwidth will need to be shared between not two (CPU+GPU) but three components (CPU+GPU+GPU) which will all be impacted by less bandwidth. If the memory pools will be split, this means that memory can't be assigned (not without a heavy impact in latency and bandwidth) to one component that needs it more in a specific scenario.
The only time when you'll want a multi-GPU setup is when a single GPU can't provide the power you require. (ie, when the strongest card isn't strong enough).
- Distributing a workload across multiple GPUs isn't cost free, due to inefficiencies and overhead. Two smaller GPUs will lose compared to one GPU even if the two setups have the same peak performance on paper.
- More and more rendering techniques rely on data from previous frames which isn't ideal when using a multi GPU setup.
- Connecting two pieces of silicon, each with their own bus will cost more than one larger piece of silicon.
- If the next-gen console will use a similar memory setup as current gen (which is likely) this means that the available bandwidth will need to be shared between not two (CPU+GPU) but three components (CPU+GPU+GPU) which will all be impacted by less bandwidth. If the memory pools will be split, this means that memory can't be assigned (not without a heavy impact in latency and bandwidth) to one component that needs it more in a specific scenario.
The only time when you'll want a multi-GPU setup is when a single GPU can't provide the power you require. (ie, when the strongest card isn't strong enough).
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Oh no you didn't onQ....
I'm oot.
I'm oot.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
OK, I'm a sucker and bored. onQ, convince me that Pro and X have 2 GPUs.
Kenpachii
Member
Consoles are budget machines. If they need more performance they will revamp the box and be done with it at a later date. Zero chance.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
That is just the layout AMD use for Polaris, onQ. In no way can that be described as 2 GPUs!
That is just the layout AMD use for Polaris, onQ. In no way can that be described as 2 GPUs!
PS4 Pro isn't Polaris
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xellos2099alpha
Member
With xbox one x and all the tech inside is 500, no way a dual gpu system be 500
Shifty
Member
And you've done precious little to prove that the picture you posted is in fact two separate GPUs instead of one with a novel silicon layout.
Show us some sources.
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LostDonkey
Member
"Our goal with the PS4 Pro is to deliver high-fidelity graphical experiences. With that in mind, we've more than doubled the power of the GPU and adopted many new features from the AMD Polaris architecture as well as several even beyond it," PS4 Pro designer Mark Cerny said at the PlayStation Meeting event.
I know what you are saying but it basically is a modified polaris chip.
GermanZepp
Member
Im no lawyer but thats not what cermy means. he also said
"We doubled the GPU size by essentially placing it next to a mirrored version of itself. That gives us an extremely clean way to support the existing 700 [PS4] titles. We just turn off half the GPU and run it at something quite close to the original GPU." stick a Pro game, in and both chips are activated, doubling the GPU’s power while the CPU runs at the same rate - something Cerny says is important to ensure compatibility with older games. "
thats 2 gpus
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
So basically what Sony did with the Pro, and MS seemed to do with the X as well.
Shifty
Member
2 GPUs worth of power perhaps, but it's still a single unit. "We doubled the GPU size" != "We doubled the GPU count".
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GermanZepp
Member
essentially placing it next to a mirrored version of itself. so Two GPU's in one piece of material EDIT: How the dreamcast work ? It has two 64bit Gpus or something among those lines?
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Key word 'essentially'. He is trying to explain it in simple terms for the audience reading...
The chip is laid out with the 'front end' sandwiched between the 2 groups of CUs as it also is in other AMD GPUs (which aren't claimed to be 2 GPUs).
Really struggling to understand how anyone could with a straight face describe these chips having 2 GPUs.
The chip is laid out with the 'front end' sandwiched between the 2 groups of CUs as it also is in other AMD GPUs (which aren't claimed to be 2 GPUs).
Really struggling to understand how anyone could with a straight face describe these chips having 2 GPUs.
John Peter
Banned
Hello man!
I don't think it's possible. I think that including 2 GPUs insida a simple box will reach something around $699. It will be an expensive console.
But let's say hypothetically that SONY choose to build such a weird hardware... So you need to know the more advanced the nanometers, the more expensive the production of the technology...
They will never choose for NAVI 7nm architecture because of the price. If we are talking about late 2019 they would probably choose for two AMD VEGA 14nm. Today(2018) is expensive to start producing VEGA architecture consoles in large scale. I think that in late 2019 build a console with NAVI 7nm will be expensive too but in the reality SONY will choose for putting just 1 GPU inside the box. So if they choose to include 2 GPUs, I think the both will be some VEGA architecture variant. Maybe two VEGA 56 variants. Even if they replace the 7nm I believe this machine would cost at least $ 699.
But in other hands I don't think you need to be worried about next gen power. I've said that 11Tflops(GTX 1080 performance in AMD architecture terms) of power will be enough to deliver native 4k and next gen graphics. If SONY won't be able to make a true generational leap in graphics with 11Tflops they will use Checkerboard in some games. If this technologie is amazing now I believe that will be better in the future. We can't distinguish between resolutions below 4k and the true 4k. From 3200x1800p to Dynamic 4k we can't see a real diference between a game running at solid 4k all the time. Reducing the resolution to 1800p the hardware gains sufficient performance slack to deliver better graphics that in 4k native would not be possible.
Take a look ate RX VEGA 64 and GTX 1080 running games at 4K Ultra Settings on youtube. This is the mos plausible Next Gen console performance. RX VEGA 64 runs everything at native 4k Ultra Settings 45fps. Consoles never use Ultra Settings or Higher filters like anisotropic, AA and so on. We can consider these two GPUs as 4K 60fps GPUs depending on what configurations you prefer to run the games. With some optimizations the next gen consoles will go further!
So don't be afraid... The next gen will be amazing with a single GPU, CPU and GDDR6 memories.
I don't think it's possible. I think that including 2 GPUs insida a simple box will reach something around $699. It will be an expensive console.
But let's say hypothetically that SONY choose to build such a weird hardware... So you need to know the more advanced the nanometers, the more expensive the production of the technology...
They will never choose for NAVI 7nm architecture because of the price. If we are talking about late 2019 they would probably choose for two AMD VEGA 14nm. Today(2018) is expensive to start producing VEGA architecture consoles in large scale. I think that in late 2019 build a console with NAVI 7nm will be expensive too but in the reality SONY will choose for putting just 1 GPU inside the box. So if they choose to include 2 GPUs, I think the both will be some VEGA architecture variant. Maybe two VEGA 56 variants. Even if they replace the 7nm I believe this machine would cost at least $ 699.
But in other hands I don't think you need to be worried about next gen power. I've said that 11Tflops(GTX 1080 performance in AMD architecture terms) of power will be enough to deliver native 4k and next gen graphics. If SONY won't be able to make a true generational leap in graphics with 11Tflops they will use Checkerboard in some games. If this technologie is amazing now I believe that will be better in the future. We can't distinguish between resolutions below 4k and the true 4k. From 3200x1800p to Dynamic 4k we can't see a real diference between a game running at solid 4k all the time. Reducing the resolution to 1800p the hardware gains sufficient performance slack to deliver better graphics that in 4k native would not be possible.
Take a look ate RX VEGA 64 and GTX 1080 running games at 4K Ultra Settings on youtube. This is the mos plausible Next Gen console performance. RX VEGA 64 runs everything at native 4k Ultra Settings 45fps. Consoles never use Ultra Settings or Higher filters like anisotropic, AA and so on. We can consider these two GPUs as 4K 60fps GPUs depending on what configurations you prefer to run the games. With some optimizations the next gen consoles will go further!
So don't be afraid... The next gen will be amazing with a single GPU, CPU and GDDR6 memories.
That's if the PS5 would be using an APU.
I'm betting the PS5 has dedicated CPU and Discrete GPU.
Heck and APU + Discrete GPU would work as well. That would effectively function similar to the PS3 without the Headaches of Cell.
$499 could be possible with a small initial hardware loss. There making tons of cash through PS+, more than enough to offset it.
I'm banking on holiday 2020.
2019 is too early for PS5, there's still huge games coming out next year.
2020 would be better from a cost perspective and more time for a decent launch lineup.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Anybody who has experience with SLI or Crossfire will understand the inherent problems with running 2 GPUs. Long ago a very smart person explained to me that the problem is interframe dependencies and multi-GPU scaling and support. In simple terms, even though SLI/Xfire setups were showing high frames, micro-stuttering was killing real-world experience.
ANIMAL1975
Member
I want 2 cpus for 60 stable fps baby! Let's do it Sony.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
- SLI and Crossfire aren't universally omnious in games. That and frame rendering requires the use of some sync stuff to hold it together.
- Dual GPU makes it a ton more expensive.
- VR isn't that big of a market to dedicate more expensive resources upon in the next iteration.
- True 4K gaming can already be achieved with just 1 of those.
- It would cost more than 500 bucks. If there is one thing that PS3 showed is that top end hardware won't see an easy market penetration. Heck the Xbox One X started for 500 and that was a 6 TF machine.
Please elaborate or don't just make these baits for which i have no hook in me arsenal.
Which seems most likely as an APU is more cost effective, occupies less room, and generates less heat than a CPU + GPU combo. It also provides for tighter integration as a SoC (System on Chip).
Based on what? In terms of integration and cost-effectiveness it would literally be a step backwards.
You cannot quantify a completely different architecture and apply it to another. The reason why the PS3 generally got the most advanced titles visually was because of the Cell. A nightmare to program for, but rewarding to those who mastered its quirks.
Again, based on what?
That is a really simple way to look at R&D, imo.
Insane Metal
Member
Nope.
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SoulUnison
Banned
Remember when NeoGAF was an enthusiast gaming forum where there seemed to be a baseline of technical knowledge among the userbase?
Now we constantly get these "schoolyard playground" threads where people go "You know how Sony/MS can win the console war? They should use, like...more tech and bigger numbers! But don't raise prices, because I have no fucking idea how money works and mommy's going to buy if for me anyway."
I feel like I'm going insane having to consider every other thread from the angle of Poe's Law.
Now we constantly get these "schoolyard playground" threads where people go "You know how Sony/MS can win the console war? They should use, like...more tech and bigger numbers! But don't raise prices, because I have no fucking idea how money works and mommy's going to buy if for me anyway."
I feel like I'm going insane having to consider every other thread from the angle of Poe's Law.
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vpance
Member
Can't see that happening anymore. Going APU is about simplicity in hardware complexity, cost savings and keeping TDP low. They'd never sacrifice that. SoC design is AMDs thing now.
I think truly separate GPUs might only be a necessity when yields start to get bad. Then you make smaller GPUs and slap em together to make bigger ones, like in die stacking or side by side on an interposer. I remember seeing slides from AMD talking about that sort of thing, but maybe that's for further down the road.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Will certainly require Sony's best noise cancelling headphones to be bundled for sure if there is 2 GPUs in there (I own a Pro and owned a bad one!).
I was actually
The PS3 phat had 2 CPUs and 2 GPUs in it and functioned fine. If they go with GPU and APU for backwards compatibility I hope they can use both of them somehow this time.
a multicultural team of v
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Or the Pentagon, and have an array be used for missile guidance systems!
sadaiyappan
Member
4 gpus then.
MP!
Member
not exactly
They may have doubled the rops or clusters of transistors... but that doesn't make it two separate GPU's... it makes it an extra big GPU
GermanZepp
Member
MP!
Member
cool, gotcha
for what it's worth I think it would be pretty interesting if they did have a dual GPU config...
Negotiator
Member
There's a rumor about having a discrete GPU, but it's highly unlikely:
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/57845/playstation-5-feature-full-discrete-gpu-apu/index.html
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/57845/playstation-5-feature-full-discrete-gpu-apu/index.html
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
HAHAHAHAHA no. It’s not going to have freaking 2x 11 TFLOPs GPUs.
It most likely won’t even have a single discreet GPU. It’ll have integrated graphics with, if we’re lucky, maybe 2.5x the power of the PS4 Pro.
It most likely won’t even have a single discreet GPU. It’ll have integrated graphics with, if we’re lucky, maybe 2.5x the power of the PS4 Pro.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
As much as it pains me to say (and to like), i actually agree with this sentiment. I don't expect anyone to know everything but its bordering on trite to read a user who has the solution and then does some word magic and voila. Like, i understand the well wishing, truly, i do, how much i would love something to happen.. i get it. But what i imagine also has to be grounded in reality.
Often more than not those kinds of threads aren't. So i explained to the OP but i hope he actually addresses my post.
Sorry Tyler, but whilst that one is fake, this one is real:
(8x 3DFX VSA-100. 512 MB memory. Essentially 8 Voodoo5's. Could be combined to have 16 of them, which is what you see here.)
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Looks like we’re at the “wildly fantastical and optimistic speculation” stage of new console hysteria.
Looking forward to the “searching for secret power” phase once the official announcement reveals something far more mundane.
Looking forward to the “searching for secret power” phase once the official announcement reveals something far more mundane.