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If Sega had stuck to their original North American launch date for the Sega Saturn and had a killer app Sonic title included as a free pack-in game, then I'd go so far as to say it could have made a moderate difference. The game would have had to have been really good, a true head-turner. It's as much to boost confidence in the system as anything else, because in the actual timeline consumers just didn't believe that Sega had confidence in the Saturn if they didn't have a Sonic game ready to go and marketed heavily.
I'd have to change a lot more to give the Saturn good odds for the long-haul in that generation. A killer app Sonic title at launch might have only been good enough to see the Saturn be a respectable also-ran for two years longer in North America than it ended up being.
I'd have to change a lot more to give the Saturn good odds for the long-haul in that generation. A killer app Sonic title at launch might have only been good enough to see the Saturn be a respectable also-ran for two years longer in North America than it ended up being.
xellos2099alpha
Member
Afew correction. They had a Shinobi game, and Phantasy star IV was effectly the end of the story. They did made the budget remake of 1 and 2 but still. It really puzzle me why they never ported return of the death adder. I am pretty sure it could be done with the ram card
Neff
Member
No. Saturn was fighting the uphill battle of all uphill battles as soon as Sony said '299' and Namco showed Ridge Racer.
But it would have massively helped and could have enabled it to compete early on instead of being almost instantly washed away into history.
PlayStation also coasted on a lot of similar arcade-oriented/2D games early in its life, very similar to the kind of stuff you'd see on Saturn. Even some of the big adventure games of PlayStation made their way to Saturn in the form of Resident Evil and Tomb Raider (which debuted on Saturn first). But PlayStation had such a strong global start that nobody cared. After Square announced FFVII for PlayStation, it was all over.
I think Dreamcast put up a pretty good fight but I'd agree that it just didn't have enough of the kind of major story-focused games PlayStation was enjoying. Relying on arcade ports in 1998 was definitely not the way to go, however good they were.
But it would have massively helped and could have enabled it to compete early on instead of being almost instantly washed away into history.
PlayStation also coasted on a lot of similar arcade-oriented/2D games early in its life, very similar to the kind of stuff you'd see on Saturn. Even some of the big adventure games of PlayStation made their way to Saturn in the form of Resident Evil and Tomb Raider (which debuted on Saturn first). But PlayStation had such a strong global start that nobody cared. After Square announced FFVII for PlayStation, it was all over.
I think Dreamcast put up a pretty good fight but I'd agree that it just didn't have enough of the kind of major story-focused games PlayStation was enjoying. Relying on arcade ports in 1998 was definitely not the way to go, however good they were.
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DownLikeBCPowder
Member
I know these consoles by heart and I disagree.
The Saturn is not able to push 3D and scroll at speeds you are expecting for a proper game in 3D, but neither is the PS1. N64 maybe, but the console is riddled with other bottlenecks anyway.
Sonic X-Treme does not offer a true 3D gameplay but circumvents it with 2D planes. If you had given me this in 1996/1997 and told me "hey, here is your 3D Sonic game", I would have been hugely disappointed. It is not a free roaming 3D experience.
Sonic R is a technical achievement but the speed is not that high and the draw distance is short.
Making a proper 3D platformer would have been possible only at the cost of slowing down the pace of the game and working with scaled down areas.
And SEGA did provide a very competent library to make 3D on Saturn :
Sega Graphics Library - Sega Retro
segaretro.org
Looks pretty good IMO.
Yeah, regarding the actual desired speed of a Sonic 3D platformer - probably not though. But I think the potential fidelity is solid.
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cartman414
Member
The Sony deal with Nintendo was designed to take advantage of Nintendo from the start, and Ken Kutaragi hassled Nintendo into accepting it, claiming it wouldn't be for games, all the while not including specific terms in the contract. Sony was only becoming a mega corp at that very period, and started Sony Imagesoft shortly afterwards, so Nintendo realized a little late. Even still, Nintendo and Sony made up in late 92 for one last go. But once again it was Ken, who this time convinced the rest of Sony to go it alone.
The Weird History Of The Super NES CD-ROM, Nintendo's Most Notorious Vaporware
Nintendo never released a CD-ROM gaming system. But for a while in the early 1990s, it flirted with the idea. That protracted will-they-won’t-they romance produced pages of breathless gossip columns in video game magazines, a mountain of vaporware, some terrible Zelda games, and one priceless...
kotaku.com
Frayed Ends of Sanity
Member
You're right I completely forgot about that Shinobi game. The one with digitized graphics. I played that for like 10 minutes years ago and decided it wasn't nearly as good as revenge of Shinobi or Shinobi 3. Return of death adder is the best golden axe game imo. I agree that it's odd how it never got ported. I could see it being a Japan exclusive too like the arcade D&D games for Saturn
TransTrender
Gold Member
Didn't read the OP or watch the video or read any replies.
No.
Sonic couldn't save the Saturn.
SEGA was, and for the most part still is, terribly managed and routinely goes out of their own way to sabotage and undermine anyone and everything they do. It's fucking baffling. Time and again and again.
I can only imagine how much blood was shed to get Frontiers out the door.
No.
Sonic couldn't save the Saturn.
SEGA was, and for the most part still is, terribly managed and routinely goes out of their own way to sabotage and undermine anyone and everything they do. It's fucking baffling. Time and again and again.
I can only imagine how much blood was shed to get Frontiers out the door.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Only things Saturn had going for it were Sega arcade ports, Capcom games, and JRPGs.
Sega's big ticket games from the 16-bit era (Sonic and sports) sucked on Saturn. The 3D and transparencies were trash, it cost $100 more, and had limited internal save memory. It was also really bulky vs. PS1's slimmer design.
Sega's big ticket games from the 16-bit era (Sonic and sports) sucked on Saturn. The 3D and transparencies were trash, it cost $100 more, and had limited internal save memory. It was also really bulky vs. PS1's slimmer design.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
There was that other Sega thread weeks back where gaffers talked about Sega's demise.
It's amazing how oddly managed this company was, when Nintendo and Sony didn't have the same Japan/US HQ issues. IMO, Sega had the talent. Look how awesome their arcade games have been throughout history. All they had to is focus on arcade and one rock solid home console at a time. every gamer knows the home port wont be as good as the arcade, but management and their R&D team went apeshit on making endless gadgets (including Sega Pico). I get it. They were trying to be a toy company catering to every person on earth from Pico to arcade to every step in the gamer chain from grassroots 6 year olds with Pico, to last gen, to mid gen (32x), to next gen, and mobile gamers with all in ones like Game Gear, Nomad and CDX.
They had way too much going on. And surprising too since it's not like they were rolling in the bucks. Yet they preferred a finance busting shotgun approach.
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cartman414
Member
That only thing, while not what they needed for success, appreciated in value much more.
And while the limited save mem sucked (as did the whole official memory card fiasco; only the PS Vita was worse); it had things that were at least in ways preferable, like the 3d Control Pad with the Hall Effect analog stick and RAM expansions.
Scotty W
Gold Member
It all comes down to Nintendo delaying the SNES to hype Mario 3 and SoA taking the advertising success. That allowed chaos into the company.
genesisblock
Member
Sonic jam was their first attempt at a 3D sonic, and they had to slower his pace so you can (3D blast does not count) manage it. I actually liked it, but when a collection is the highlight of your console there's no way you're competing with Mario 64 or Playstation.
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Zug
Member
I remember the teenager-old me avidly reading Saturn vs Playstation comparisons on video game magazines.
I was a die-hard Sega fan at the time and was eagerly waiting for the future Saturn games.
But the Playstation was just superior in all aspects, the gap was immense in this early 3D era.
The lower price was just the nail in the coffin.
Even the best PCs were left in the dust by the PS1, then 3DFX cards and their successor caught up but for a hefty price.
I was a die-hard Sega fan at the time and was eagerly waiting for the future Saturn games.
But the Playstation was just superior in all aspects, the gap was immense in this early 3D era.
The lower price was just the nail in the coffin.
Even the best PCs were left in the dust by the PS1, then 3DFX cards and their successor caught up but for a hefty price.
Disco Dave
Member
Even if Sonic was an 11/10 game, it wasn't going to make people sell their PlayStations and get a Saturn.
Team Andromeda
Member
No, Not when you had Tom and the muppet show at SEGA of America. Sonic Adv on the Saturn though IMO would have sold 3 to 4 million extra consoles in the USA.
The worst part in all this is without the 32X and if Sonic Adv came out of the Saturn, then I think SEGA could have beaten the N64 and be in a very decent 2nd place the world over
The worst part in all this is without the 32X and if Sonic Adv came out of the Saturn, then I think SEGA could have beaten the N64 and be in a very decent 2nd place the world over
RAIDEN1
Member
Sonic adventure on the Saturn would not have been anywhere near as good as it was on the Dreamcast....you can imagine the amount of ugly pop-up and mesh transparencies, yeesh!
Pretty much the only way to play it legal was to buy that Astrocity mini. (Which reminds me, I should probably buy one so I can play it and the arcade version of Shadow Dancer too. Amazon has them for a decent price if you import.)
Unknown?
Member
So in-line with everything on Saturn and PS1 then? I mean, that was standard and no one cared. No it wouldn't have been as fast paced or good looking, but it would have been good for 1995/6.
That said, it wouldn't have saved it but it definitely would have given some positive PR for the system.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I think Saturn would have done way better in the USA if:
1. Sega didnt launch the 32X - obvious, just confused people
2. Released a good NFL game - Sony invested to make GameDay really good, but Sega just licensed some shitty game and threw their branding on it, it was terrible. I know people here dont care about this, but sports games were a major part of Genesis' success
3. Yea, released a Sonic game. Utterly baffling they never did it.
1. Sega didnt launch the 32X - obvious, just confused people
2. Released a good NFL game - Sony invested to make GameDay really good, but Sega just licensed some shitty game and threw their branding on it, it was terrible. I know people here dont care about this, but sports games were a major part of Genesis' success
3. Yea, released a Sonic game. Utterly baffling they never did it.
Team Andromeda
Member
Much of the whole game design was made for Saturn, very much like with Shenmue.
There was still plenty of pop-in in the Dreamcast version, Choas would have been an issue, but the bulk of the main water effects could have been handled by the VDP2; In fact, if you look at a boss battle like Choas 4, that looks so much like a VDP2 designed level and effect and well Sonic and SEGA fans were used to mesh effects, given they were used in Mega Drive games, and all Model 1 and 2 games.
Sonic Jam showed how good Project Sonic would have looked and given it was from the CSK Sonic Team it would have been good, while not made any difference to beating SONY, would for me have added 4 million consoles sales alone and really helped SEGA take on Nintendo, but the 32X really killed SEGA chances IMO
T
Sega's consumer division (console) began faltering immediately after hitting the peak with Mega Drive/Genesis, by the latter part of the MD lifespan Sega was already a troubled console manfuacturer even if outsiders couldn't realize it at the time.
One game or game franchise alone can't turn the situation when the issues were company wide.
One game or game franchise alone can't turn the situation when the issues were company wide.
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TheMan
Member
As others have pointed out, sonic adventure didn’t save the Dreamcast despite having great graphics and solid gameplay. I don’t think the saturn could have produced a game with graphics and gameplay good enough to compare well against its contemporaries. So no, sonic could not have saved the saturn. Honestly I think the best things they could have done would be to design from the ground up for 3d and launch at a lower price while giving retailers a chance to prepare for launch. The surprise release kind of set the tone for that console
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RoboFu
One of the green rats
The one game that maybe could have changed a lot was FF7. Square and Sega were in negotiations to create FF7 for the Saturn as the Saturn did sell very well in Japan at launch.
Rumor has it that Sony won them over with a great marketing deal and square was impressed with the ease of development and excellent transparency abilities of the PlayStation.
Rumor has it that Sony won them over with a great marketing deal and square was impressed with the ease of development and excellent transparency abilities of the PlayStation.
Unknown?
Member
Considering Mario and Zelda couldn't save GC or Wii U, I think you're on to something.
That said I don't think Saturn was as big of a screw up as those two systems. People cite the 32X but how many people even knew of that thing? Not many and if they knew of its existence, most didn't even know what it was for.
When Saturn launched it just needed some killer games because it still had mindshare.
Holammer
Member
WiiU crashed and burned despite plenty of Mario titles and a proper Mario Kart.
I'm a little bit surprised Nintendo managed to find success with the Switch despite lacking high budget AAA titles and licensed Sports games. Nintendo themselves probably don't know what the secret sauce was.
Wulfer
Member
And this is why we don't get a Saturn mini!
No Sonic could save this hard-to-program chip salad.
Also, releasing Daytona USA in its original condition (graphics) next to Ridge Racer didn't help!
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xellos2099alpha
Member
Things were stack heavily againist Saturn in usa. In Japan, they still love 2D games while in usa it completely shifted to 3d overnight.
Team Andromeda
Member
You're taking utter crap sorry. For 2 years in Japan SEGA Saturn was beating SONY, that all changed with the release of the FF7 demo.
FF 7 would have made sure SEGA won in Japan but in the West? Not, when you had the muppets at SEGA America, still trying to hold on to a 16-bit market no one cared for.
cartman414
Member
Sega would have still been curb stomped by Sony, so following the trend of 3d at the expense of 2d IMO wouldn't have been worth it. I mean, that is unless Sega managed to hang around.
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Team Andromeda
Member
That was a huge mistake on SEGA part. They did much the same with Sega Rally 2 on the DC. I seem to remember when SEGA Japan 1st announced a delay to Daytona USA on the Saturn their share price dropped 15% or something. So you can bet, the PR team put pressure on AM#2 just to get the game out.
I think Daytona USA for more of a massive own goal in the West's mind, the Japanese didn't seem to care and I remember reading of the Saturn outselling the PS at a ratio of 8:1 in the run-up to Virtua Fighter 2 . Didn't VF2 on Saturn break the recorded for the most Pre-ordered game in Japan too (though that might have been for CD software)
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cartman414
Member
PS was merely good when it came to 2d. The Saturn destroyed it in that department.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
These are the little details people forget or didn’t read about.
NFL was a big deal. Football games were always huge sellers, and Gameday literally stole the crown from Madden for a few years. Having the premiere football game exclusively on your red hot console was one of many feathers in Sony’s cap.
the_master
Member
I agree that the N64 did bring Mario and in the best way possible. As Sega came earlier, Sonic could have bumped a bit its sales if the game was good.
Now, if they had gone 2D, they'd be dead sooner and the failure would have been massive. At that time, everyone wanted 3D games, 2d gems where ignored and frowned upon.
Sega should have discarded the 32X before even prototyping it, and focus all the effort into a 3D power house and 3rd party support. And released the same good Sega games they already released, and more.
The way to defeat Sony then, was to crush it from the beginning with overwhelming 3rd party support and better visuals, selling the idea that Sony didn't know about game sand didn't have the love for them. Bu of course, this required a massive investment.
the_master
Member
N64 came a bit too late, when the Playstation install base, catalog and 3rd party support was supreme.
nkarafo
Member
So if Sonic had to "save" the Saturn, it would have to come early too, as a launch or first gen title. And as such, it would probably be crap since they would have to use the earlier developer tools instead of what was used to make later, better games. Otherwise, like Mario 64, it would be too late to make a difference.
nkarafo
Member
But still, it would not look as great.
When Adventure was released it was one of, if not the most dazzling looking game you could play at home, along with Soul Calibur. Even on PCs you could hardly find something looking as good. The game itself was jank and pretty mediocre so whatever success was there, it was because of the graphics. It was the visuals that kept me playing it, personally, even though i kinda hated every other aspect.
If it was released on the Saturn, it would look just like another 32bit game, probably still not as good looking as the best looking PS1 games. So it would have to be a much better game than Adventure to stand out. Like, as good as Mario 64 at least, gameplay wise.
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Team Andromeda
Member
But this would be a 1997 game on a 32 Bit system. People's and more importantly SEGA fan's expectations would be in check. The issue for the Dreamcast was, so many thought SEGA was finished anyway.
If it 'was' all about graphics the XBox would have killed the PS2 for sales and Conkers would have been the best-selling platform game of that generation.
In 1996/7 I still would say they was bit of love for SEGA and especially Sonic
Team Andromeda
Member
It just seems to me you're rather enjoying yourself just stirring and winding people up. In a perfect world if SEGA had the Sonic Team work on a Sonic game after they finished S&K and not looked to make NIGHTS or have the muppets at SEGA America try and make their own Sonic game Then it would have been coming in at a time to have made a difference with sales mid-1996, not to take on SONY, but to get a decent base to be 2nd place and where the tools were better; not that an In-House team like Sonic Team would have needed better tools, their code base at that stage was more than good enough, like most of the In-House top teams at SEGA Japan.
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