Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And none of those actually entail literally locking anyone up. You are being intentionally ridiculous by pretending that it does.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
And no one has any right to even demand that.
Keihart
Member
ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
Please explain why you think you should have the right to exclude me from anything.Now we pedal backwards i see.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Because you're gonna kill grandma... who is vaccinated with a totally working vaccine. But yeah.
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Vaccine passports.
Keihart
Member
Because there is a highly infectious disease that most people don't want to spread and you don't seem to give 2 fucks about ? Do you have the right to impose your recklessness on to me? Be reckless in your private property, i doubt anyone has a problem with that.
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FunkMiller
Member
There are many places in society you are not free to go due to the rules governing that society. Are you saying that impinges on your rights? You cannot enter a bank’s vault, or a women’s dressing room. Are they wrong to demand that you stay out of them? Do you think you should be allowed entry wherever you choose? Are you against all rules that prohibit someone’s freedom to roam where they please, or is it just this one rule? If so, what’s the distinction?
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FunkMiller
Member
How is that locking you up?
ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
If you have the vaccine, then you shouldn't be worried about me. Why are you so determined to force your nose into my business?
And there you go, putting words in my mouth again. I never said that.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
Its primary purpose is to lock you out of society until you capitulate. There's no real distinction.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Schrödinger's vaccine. It works and it doesn't work at the same time.
Keihart
Member
So your argument is that vaccinating some people is enough and there is no need for herd immunity through vaccination?
or maybe you don't believe in how the viral load changes between vaccinated and unvaccinated people?
Because someone unvaccinated is not just putting themselves at risk, they are also petri dishes that allow the virus to replicate and spread easier.
How is you, doing something that puts everyone at higher risk not trampling over other people rights ?
RoboFu
One of the green rats
the same stupid selfish statement.
Because we are making it harder for the virus to be passed to others where you adding logs to fire. It’s not hard to understand. Yes vaccinated people can carry the virus for a very short time in their nasal and a fraction of a percentage can still have complications but You can carry it for days acrossed oceans and unvaccinated people are filling hospitals again.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
Does the vaccine work or not?
DeepBreath87
Banned
Because you have the right not to participate in society yourself. See no one is mandating you do anything. You are trying to mandate things onto others for your own benefit. You are the one demanding others behave differently for you.
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FunkMiller
Member
Yea it does. But not everybody can take it, even if they want to. What about them?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
They can stay at home until we reach herd immunity. Or they can just move on and live their lives because herd immunity is never happening.
Keihart
Member
Look at DeepBreath87, that's a real answer. Take notes.
If you apply that line of reasoning then why even have speed limits, right? you can easily avoid accidents by just not getting near to the streets right?
Look, i understand your reasoning, but we don't live in mad max society despite what your ideal one is. There are rules in place on public spaces meant to be followed, rules that benefit everyone.
This cautionary measures are not just arbitrary and directed to benefit only a specific part of the population, they are mostly measures guided by health professionals and scientists meant to benefit everyone.
I have no doubt that there is people that would love to drive fast as fuck boi, everywhere, why would anyone be ok with that? just walk safer right?
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FunkMiller
Member
Ah, so you should have your rights unaffected, but they should not. Okay. They should stay locked up at home, but you shouldn’t. Even though they have no choice.
At least we have the centre of your argument and position now. Thank you.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
Are you saying they should be discriminated against?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
The vaccine used to be about 90% effective against infection and about 90% effective against hospitalization and deaths.
But now, the delta variant is by far the most common variant of COVID circulating around the world, so those numbers have changed.
Against the delta variant, our vaccines are anywhere from 40 to 80% effective (probably on the lower end) against infection but fortunately still about 90% effective against hospitalization and death.
On an individual level, getting the vaccine reduces one's chance of harm quite significantly, but it's not guaranteed, and there are more things one could do to limit their vulnerability, like wearing a mask, improving their health, or social distancing.
But we live in a society, and thus the actions of other people must be factored in.
On a community level, the vaccine reduces the community's chance or harm significantly, and the greater a percentage of the community is vaccinated, the greater compounding beneficial effect it has. Even though the infection protection is lower for delta, it's still greater than zero, which means that when analyzed via the math of an exponentially spreading virus, that will still have a very large effect over a large population.
Therefore, it is in the best interests of the community to have as high a vaccination percent as possible. Therefore, those who do not get vaccinated are increasing the danger for the entire community.
The known risks of COVID in the short term are extremely large. The known risks of the vaccine in the short term are extremely low.
The known risks of COVID in the long term are extremely large. The long term risks of the vaccine are currently unknown, but theoretically extremely low based on sound reasoning.
FunkMiller
Member
What on earth are you on about? You asked if the vaccine works - it does, but not everyone is able to take it. And by people like you making a choice not to be vaccinated, they have their rights curtailed. The world is less safe for them. You are putting your own needs ahead of theirs. It’d make all of this a lot easier if you could just admit that.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
1) People drive fast as fuck in Germany just fine.
2) These cautionary measures are currently designed to discriminate against anyone who doesn't agree with what the government is trying to force them to do. That benefits a specific part of the population.
3) You also keep citing "scientists and health professionals" as one monolithic group who never break the law, have ulterior motives, or have ever been wrong.
ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
It sounded to me like you were about to advocate discriminating against them the same way you're trying to discriminate against me.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
"Or they can just move on and live their lives"
ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
Oh good, here comes another one who thinks that people should be forced into submitting to the mob.
FunkMiller
Member
How can they live their lives, if they cannot take the vaccine, and there are people like you walking around unvaccinated, preventing the suppression of the virus, and forcing them to stay isolated?
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FunkMiller
Member
I’m saying that by you acting in your self interest by not taking the vaccine, you are curtailing the rights of people who cannot take it. You are forcing them to stay locked up and isolated, when you could get the vaccine, and make it easier for them to be safe.
Keihart
Member
I'm gonna assume that you are this dense on purpose, is better than to believe that you are just stupid.
Germany does have speed limits, the measures proposed have proven to work in other countries like Taiwan, you had no problem calling how the science is wrong in a monolithic manner and now call me for saying that they guide this measures?
ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
How can people being forced to lose their job and stay home live their lives?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
A lot of this boils down to one idea-
The more people in my community get the vaccine, the less likely it will be for me as an individual to catch COVID, become hospitalized, or die as well as the less people in the community as a whole will catch COVID, become hospitalized, or die. As in, a 50% vaccinated community will probably have less suffering and death than a 0% vaccinated community, and a 90% vaccinated community will probably have less suffering and death than a 50% vaccinated community.
Bernd Lauert
ArgleBargleFooferah
DeepBreath87
Men_in_Boxes
do you agree with this statement or do you disagree?
The more people in my community get the vaccine, the less likely it will be for me as an individual to catch COVID, become hospitalized, or die as well as the less people in the community as a whole will catch COVID, become hospitalized, or die. As in, a 50% vaccinated community will probably have less suffering and death than a 0% vaccinated community, and a 90% vaccinated community will probably have less suffering and death than a 50% vaccinated community.
Bernd Lauert
ArgleBargleFooferah
DeepBreath87
Men_in_Boxes
do you agree with this statement or do you disagree?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
By simply living it. It's not a big deal, especially if they take some precautions. Also I like how the goalposts moved to protecting the tiny amount of population who is straight up allergic to the xeen.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
In what world do you live in where "we live in a society, and thus the actions of other people must be factored in" is equivalent to "I think people should be forced into submitting to the mob"?
lol
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Nobody is being forced to do anything. They have choices and their decisions have consequences. This isn't complicated.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Did you actually read the article? Doctors and scientists were the ones who started to notice the links between smoking and adverse effects and started publishing them, the ad companies basically created the idea of doctor support out of thin air by misrepresenting 'studies' they had created and manipulated and then sticking some actor in a lab coat.This was the status quo once. Were they better to follow doctor's orders?
Cigarettes were once ‘physician’ tested, approved
Hemonc Today | In the grand scope of the history of medicine, the relationship between doctors and patients has changed quite a bit in recent years. The internet and direct-to-consumer advertising have empowered patients to become active participants in their health care. However, it was...www.healio.com
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
You're calling me dense but you are the one who has repeatedly shown they can't read. Or write - was that supposed to be English?
I never said Germany didn't have speed limits. I said they drive "fast as fuck" just fine - which were your exact words.
I never said the science is wrong in a "monolithic manner", I said not all scientists are *right* in a monolithic manner, like you have repeatedly described. Jesus man, learn to read.
I have no idea what that last part is supposed to mean, even with google translate.
FunkMiller
Member
So now we’re back to it not being a dangerous virus again: “it’s not a big deal”. …. And I have changed zero goalposts. It’s always been about protecting those who can’t protect themselves.
If you guys could just be honest and admit you don’t care about how your actions effect other people, all of this would be a lot quicker.
Go on. Grow some balls and just say it. Just say you don’t care about them.
If nothing else, we’d probably have to give you credit for being truthful.
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
And people forcing me to take something I don't want to take - yet - are curtailing my rights. So you're fine with one side but not the other. Which is hypocritical, but I'm not surprised.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Life is inherently risky. Almost everything we do has some risk to it. You got the choice to just live your life or cower in fear.
FunkMiller
Member
Right, okay. So you think you’re rights to your job and life are more important than their rights to be healthy and safe.
Good stuff.
We’ve hit the crux of the matter.
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FunkMiller
Member
Yes mate. Their rights to their health and safety is more important than your right to refuse a safe vaccine. Absolutely. 100%.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Do you agree with my earlier post or do you disagree?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
What rights are being curtailed?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
There is no right to be healthy, lmao.
FunkMiller
Member
Like taking a safe and effective vaccine to help those that can’t, you mean?
FunkMiller
Member
And we’re done.
I really don’t think I can stomach speaking to you selfish little children anymore.
Have fun everyone
Keihart
Member
Close enough, no?
I mean, if you don't agree, let's just make asbestos legal in construction again...
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ArgleBargleFooferah
Banned
"I'm protecting people by bullying other people!" - How noble!
Right, okay. So you don't think I have any right to a job or life, or to be safe.
Good stuff.
We've hit the crux of the matter.