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[Hockeymac18]

lol those Sony can also do posts. lmao

In that sense even Apple can make cars, disregard every other car manufactures who have spent several decades of research and learning.


This is not something you wake up amd decide to do next day, Azure is going to be 20 fucking billion $ business in 3 years. Thats almost the size of entire Sony corporation market cap. Which is irrelevant comparison I know but just putting everything into perspective.

Microsoft have been working on their server technology for years, they have data center across the globe. Robust developer tools to build stuff.

Yes. The acquisition of hardware is honestly probably the easiest part of this set up because it's well-understood/documented, since tons of companies have been doing this for years. The biggest hurdle there is probably just money (which obviously isn't easy to overcome, but at least you understand what you need).

The stuff that can't just be easily copied are the software tools/engines that are being developed here and likely have taken MS years to conceptualize and perfect. This seems to be overlooked in these "Sony Too" arguments (as an aside: funny that "Sony Too" is being used in this way as it's usually used in negative ways).

This isn't about system wars...just what's realistic.

Nothing says Sony can't be Azure customers, if they want to.

They'd still need to have tools to make it all work in their games, though. Unless you're suggesting that they license from Cloudgine (which I could see happening in the future). Then again, if they're renting server space/compute power AND licensing tech, I'm sure the economics of this become a lot less desirable.

 

[Trup1aya]

...So in absence of evidence to the contrary, you prove to believe that MS just gives away server space with no limitations? That makes a ton of sense. It's smart to make others prove the negative rather than offering any evidence to the positive. Good call.

Spoiler

SCREAMS INTERALLY

They don't give it away with no limitations... If your application demands azure services, azure responds... The developer pays for each response... It'll do what you ask it to, and allocate addition VM's as is nessisary to complete your request... Your limitations is how much you can spend...

 

[FordGTGuy]

It's the same thought process.

If my simulation of, say, Crackdown 4 is amazingly efficiently but so incredibly rich and complex that server usage becomes prohibitive, it won't happen.

Revenues needing to be greater than costs is not a novel concept, I'm amazed that there's any contention at all with this point.

I can't wait to read your evidence on how Crackdown is inefficient.

BTW it's capable of 20x the power of a Xbox One in a session not per Xbox One.

A Crackdown 3 session is up to 99 players and it's not constantly using 20x at all times.

 

[Ushay]

This! Microsoft is doing so much for their gamers while Sony is doing nothing besides moneyhatting games, announce games that are 3-4 years away and act like they won E3 2015, don't add backward compatibility, don't allow EA Access and abandon the PlayStation Vita!

I think that's a little harsh given Sony is basically playing the safe card. They've down well in my opinion, MS is just trying really hard and it's beginning to pay off.

 

[Handy Fake]

Nope unfortunately, AgentP stands for Agen Pony.

Well that was silly.

 

[LoveCake]

The power of the cloud.

I am not so sure it makes the X1 the most powerful console ever though, it basically turns the X1 into a gateway for a gaming streaming service.

It is interesting to see how this all pans out though.

 

[Anarion07]

The power of the cloud.

I am not so sure it makes the X1 the most powerful console ever though, it basically turns the X1 into a gateway for a gaming streaming service.

It is interesting to see how this all pans out though.

that's how I see it.
With that line of thought, remote play turns my Z3 into the most powerful gaming phone ever?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

It's the same thought process.

If my simulation of, say, Crackdown 4 is amazingly efficient but so incredibly rich and complex that server usage becomes prohibitive, it won't happen.

Revenues needing to be greater than costs is not a novel concept, I'm amazed that there's any contention at all with this point.






You clearly have no interest in an intellectually honest discussion. I'm done.
I never said Crackdown 3 is inefficient, and you know it. This is not the point I'm making, and you know it.

I'm joining you. He's resorting to smug, ageist ad-hominem crap now. Fuck it.

 

[Ushay]

Is this a joke post?

He's fighting the good fight.

Opinions and all that, everyone has one at the end if the day. The way I see it. A gaming platforms job is to attract consumers to their platform. It isn't our friggin job, so I have no idea why so many take these things ao personally. Let MS and Sony do that Imo.

 

[Slavik81]

Is there a whitepaper on this? Doing physics with latency in an interactive application is technically mind-blowing to me.

 

[wachie]

Nope unfortunately, AgentP stands for Agen Pony.

Holy shit, something up with GAF juniors recently.

 

[shandy706]

I am not so sure it makes the X1 the most powerful console ever though, it basically turns the X1 into a gateway for a gaming streaming service.
.

It doesn't alter the system itself at all...sooo...ehhhh

I understand WHAT they're trying to say though.

"Game streaming" and what's happening here are two completely different things though.

 

[Forsythia]

IGN's video just went up. Good stuff. http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/08/06/17-minutes-of-explosive-crackdown-3-gameplay-gamescom-2015

That's bloody impressive. I'm surely going to enjoy this in multiplayer!

 

[FordGTGuy]

that's how I see it.
With that line of thought, remote play turns my Z3 into the most powerful gaming phone ever?

Except game streaming and this are nothing alike.

Game streaming a PS4 or PS4 game is still limited by what a single PS4 game can do.

Crackdown 3 is not limited by it being an Xbox One game, since computations are being off-loaded it is capable of creating a experience that is 20 times what could be done on a Xbox One.

Holy shit, something up with GAF juniors recently.

I didn't expect a junior to know AgentP that well already.

It's the same thought process.

If my simulation of, say, Crackdown 4 is amazingly efficient but so incredibly rich and complex that server usage becomes prohibitive, it won't happen.

Revenues needing to be greater than costs is not a novel concept, I'm amazed that there's any contention at all with this point.

You clearly have no interest in an intellectually honest discussion. I'm done.
I never said Crackdown 3 is inefficient, and you know it. This is not the point I'm making, and you know it.

Apparently asking for evidence for someone's claims is now considered being mean to them or not wanting to have a intellectual conversation.

 

[Apathy]

I know people still want to say that it's Microsoft technology that is making this happen (azure and the ability to spin up and down servers) but wouldn't it be more the Cloudgine technology that lets the Azure servers ability to spin up and down to be used for computation offsetting for games? Really then they could use the same Cloudgine tech on any other cloud based servers like AWS that also has the ability to spin up and down servers?

 

[Bsigg12]

Is there a whitepaper on this? Doing physics with latency in an interactive application is technically mind-blowing to me.

Microsoft has a few things for server side computation. I'm on mobile otherwise I would look them up for you.

 

[T.O.P]

Is this a joke post?

It's AgentP, off course not

 

[Memorabilia]

*facepalm* Not this bullshit again.

 

[Dynasty]

Holy shit, something up with GAF juniors recently.

I couldn't resist, guess I shouldn't' have said it? bannable offense?

 

[Anarion07]

Except game streaming and this are nothing alike.

Game streaming a PS4 or PS4 game is still limited by what a single PS4 game can do.

Crackdown 3 is not limited by it being an Xbox One game, since computations are being off-loaded it is capable of creating a experience that is 20 times what could be done on a Xbox One.
.

Yes, but it's about the concept.
Theoretically, you can offload everything to an external computer and stream it via your console (cloud gaming).
That doesn't make your streaming device any stronger.
Im not argueing it's not awesome, I just think the statement is wrong

 

[Hockeymac18]

I know people still want to say that it's Microsoft technology that is making this happen (azure and the ability to spin up and down servers) but wouldn't it be more the Cloudgine technology that lets the Azure servers ability to spin up and down to be used for computation offsetting for games? Really then they could use the same Cloudgine tech on any other cloud based servers like AWS that also has the ability to spin up and down servers?

It's probably a combination of both (mainly in that Cloudgine's tech is optimized for the way that Azure works). But yes, I imagine, theoretically, their code could be applied to any cloud/cluster structure that works similarly. I don't know all of the details, but I suspect a big advantage of Cloudgine working closely with MS' Azure service is that they can really tailor it to that set up. I also imagine that since they're working so closely with MS that there are some MS-specific proprietary things going on here.

I don't think it would work with old-fashioned situations where you have distinct servers on their own, since the power behind this is in how they can "spin up/spin down" servers on the fly (and the "servers" aren't actually servers sine they're VM instances - there's probably many VM instances for each distinct Azure server). So whoever licenses Cloudgine's tech would need to set it up in an environment that works similarly (e.g. AWS works somewhat like this).

Then again, I don't know if Cloudgine is planning to license this tech (my gut says that's their long-term plan, but who knows). And if they are, is it economically viable to license that tech AND rent server space somewhere, such as AWS? I don't know.

 

[Frog-fu]

Holy shit, something up with GAF juniors recently.

lmao, dumb but I legit laughed though.

 

[LoveCake]

Except game streaming and this are nothing alike.

Game streaming a PS4 or PS4 game is still limited by what a single PS4 game can do.

Crackdown 3 is not limited by it being an Xbox One game, since computations are being off-loaded it is capable of creating a experience that is 20 times what could be done on a Xbox One.

How does what MS are doing with the X1 & cloud differ from what OnLive were doing, OnLive enabled people to play games on devices that were not powerful enough to run the game themselves, i know only a portion of the game on X1-Cloud is powered/rendered on the Cloud & the majority is done on the X1.

Is is not feasible that Crackdown 3 could run fine on a high spec PC without the need for Cloud?

 

[Woo-Fu]

But how do you play other games on your Xbox One while playing Crackdown 3? I mean being the most powerful console ever made is awesome but not when its only one game.

 

[THRILLH0]

Wow people getting antsy in here.

Who cares if the power is coming solely from the hardware in the shell or from the cloud?

If Microsoft sold a potato chip that could run Crackdown 3 thanks to the cloud, then it would be just as powerful as the XB1.

Bitching about precisely where the computational power lies for a digital device seems narrow-minded.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Yes, but it's about the concept.
Theoretically, you can offload everything to an external computer and stream it via your console (cloud gaming).
That doesn't make your streaming device any stronger.
Im not argueing it's not awesome, I just think the statement is wrong

What does game streaming do?

It streams a game on a base set of hardware, it does not push the boundaries of that game and actually the game suffers from stream quality.

Compute streaming does something extremely different.

The reason people are implying that it makes the console stronger(although I don't agree with the terminology personally) is that it is possible to go into a game mode online in this game on a set piece of hardware and see things only possible with 20x the power.

 

[T.O.P]

Is there a toll for Chrome to skip through all the shitpost?

 

[TheWorthyEdge]

Bring on the XBONE! Next paycheck and you'll be mine!

 

[justsomeguy]

AFAIK Cloudgine has not been acquired by MS. Maybe they will become a big player in 3rd party licensing in the future? Maybe Epic will build these features into Unreal Engine and will make it much easier for developers to take advantage of? Who knows what the future holds.

If I was at Cloudgine I'd be rubbing my hands at the Epic vs. MS bidding war that's going to break out one day. If CD3 works, they're going to be very, very rich when they get bought by one of those companies.

Makes sense for it to go to UE4: If MS can offer up a way for PC, PS4, XBox to use Cloud then they win on consumption (which is a massive priority for the company - probably more so than using it to promote xbox sales)

 

[justsomeguy]

edit: must not feed the trolls.

 

[Hockeymac18]

How does what MS are doing with the X1 & cloud differ from what OnLive were doing, OnLive enabled people to play games on devices that were not powerful enough to run the game themselves, i know only a portion of the game on X1-Cloud is powered/rendered on the Cloud & the majority is done on the X1.

Is is not feasible that Crackdown 3 could run fine on a high spec PC without the need for Cloud?

It's only similar in a very basic way (as you mention): a user's system is able to do things that it could not on its own. The implementation of the two things is completely different, though. For one, the XB1 is still processing many things on its own, namely the main guts of the game. The heavy CPU stuff is being offloaded, but the game still runs locally. So things like a user's input don't need to be transferred to/from the server. In other words, you don't need a giant amount of bandwidth to get this to work (unlike OnLive/PSNow where the bandwidth requirements are much higher).

Is is not feasible that Crackdown 3 could run fine on a high spec PC without the need for Cloud?

I'm not sure if a really powerful PC, on its own, could process this much physics calculations. Considering there are instances where they're using ~14 server VMs to do the physics calculations, I have a hard time believing that even the most powerful CPUs on their own could accomplish the same thing. But maybe I'm not up to date on the most powerful processors out there.

 

[shandy706]

How does what MS are doing with the X1 & cloud differ from what OnLive were doing, OnLive enabled people to play games on devices that were not powerful enough to run the game themselves, i know only a portion of the game on X1-Cloud is powered/rendered on the Cloud & the majority is done on the X1.

Is is not feasible that Crackdown 3 could run fine on a high spec PC without the need for Cloud?

Completely different. Zero video is rendered and sent in CD3.

Even a single high end PC would hit a barrier.

 

[Dynasty]

If I was at Cloudgine I'd be rubbing my hands at the Epic vs. MS bidding war that's going to break out one day. If CD3 works, they're going to be very, very rich when they get bought by one of those companies.

Makes sense for it to go to UE4: If MS can offer up a way for PC, PS4, XBox to use Cloud then they win on consumption (which is a massive priority for the company - probably more so than using it to promote xbox sales)

Personally would prefer if Cloudgine stays independent and builds itself up. It can remain one of the front runners in Cloud technology, while providing support to everyone tha tis interested.

 

[Apathy]

Personally would prefer if Cloudgine stays independent and builds itself up. It can remain one of the front runners in Cloud technology, while providing support to everyone tha tis interested.

Hard if you get truck loads of money up to your door. If Microsoft and that Chinese company that owns epic start tossing money at you, you start thinking about all the stuff you can do of you just take it.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

this sound great but whenever the network is down for whatever reason it will be useless, awesome nonetheless

 

[justsomeguy]

Personally would prefer if Cloudgine stays independent and builds itself up. It can remain one of the front runners in Cloud technology, while providing support to everyone tha tis interested.

Right, also a good model - plug in to unity, ue4, etc.

That's how I'd start out.

Then Phil would ring me up and say "How does £50M sound" and I'd swim the atlantic to hand it over, hah

 

[shandy706]

this sound great but whenever the network is down for whatever reason it will be useless, awesome nonetheless

Hard to play Destiny, Battlefield, and Call of Duty when they're down too .

 

[shoreu]

Physics calculations are not incredibly complex. You're the one who is reducing what PS Now does down to "video streaming".

They are???? And then calculating rotation and collision between all fragments of a crumbling object while it's falling down plus this can be going on in multiple locations and then making sure latency is not a major issue while this is happening. Physics calculations are not simple, otherwise every racing game would have simulations like Forza 6.

 

[Version 3.0]

What does gaming streaming do?

It streams a game on a base set of hardware, it does not push the boundaries of that game and actually the game suffers from stream quality.

Compute streaming does something extremely different.

The reason people are implying that it makes the console stronger(although I don't agree with the terminology personally) is that it is possible to go into a game mode online in this game on a set piece of hardware and see things only possible with 20x the power.

Well, no. Streaming can let you play a game on an inferior piece of hardware. Sure, you can stream PS1 games on a PS4, but you can also stream strenuous PC games on a wimpy little TV box. And yes, the quality suffers.

Also yes, this isn't the same thing. But it's also not just "hardware power times 20". It's a subset of computing (physics). I'm admittedly impressed by the tech. It's also tech I don't really want, though. I'd rather have inferior physics that rely on "tricks" but that can run locally - say, like Red Faction Guerilla, which was also quite impressive back then - than server-reliant ones. It's interesting that they're doing both approaches in the package, and only using server-reliant physics in multiplayer. I think that's the right way to go.

It still feels to me like more of an attempt to deliver the "power of the cloud" for the sake of attention than something to be truly excited about. Microsoft is trying, though, can't fault them for that. Sony's just coasting by comparison.

 

[Dynasty]

Right, also a good model - plug in to unity, ue4, etc.

That's how I'd start out.

Then Phil would ring me up and say "How does £50M sound" and I'd swim the atlantic to hand it over, hah

Yh the more engines support this the quicker it will be adopted and the quicker it will revolutionize online multiplayer. I truly see this as the next big software break for online gaming.
LOL kind of getting carried away, 1st need to see this working in the real world where millions of people ahve tested it before we can think about anything else. Can;t wait for next year.

 

[FordGTGuy]

How does what MS are doing with the X1 & cloud differ from what OnLive were doing, OnLive enabled people to play games on devices that were not powerful enough to run the game themselves, i know only a portion of the game on X1-Cloud is powered/rendered on the Cloud & the majority is done on the X1.

Is is not feasible that Crackdown 3 could run fine on a high spec PC without the need for Cloud?

OnLive is streaming a game, that game plays like that game built for whatever hardware when it came out with the limitations of that hardware.

CD3 will have a mode where you can go in and see stuff not possible without 20x the local hardware power.

I heavily doubt anything out there for consumers can match what CD3 is doing locally.

Well, no. Streaming can let you play a game on an inferior piece of hardware. Sure, you can stream PS1 games on a PS4, but you can also stream strenuous PC games on a wimpy little TV box. And yes, the quality suffers.

Also yes, this isn't the same thing. But it's also not just "hardware power times 20". It's a subset of computing (physics). I'm admittedly impressed by the tech. It's also tech I don't really want, though. I'd rather have inferior physics that rely on "tricks" but that can run locally - say, like Red Faction Guerilla, which was also quite impressive back then - than server-reliant ones. It's interesting that they're doing both approaches in the package, and only using server-reliant physics in multiplayer. I think that's the right way to go.

It still feels to me like more of an attempt to deliver the "power of the cloud" for the sake of attention than something to be truly excited about. Microsoft is trying, though, can't fault them for that. Sony's just coasting by comparison.

Is this a joke?

Of course you can stream a game to a piece of hardware that wouldn't be capable of playing that game.

Crackdown 3 isn't streaming though, it's a full on your console experience. You just have to jump in a mode to experience something that the local hardware or even a enthusiast PC isn't capable of.

 

[T.O.P]

Physics calculations are not incredibly complex.

oh well

 

[Slavik81]

Cloudgine Projects:
2015 - Miss Teen USA
2016 - Crackdown 3

Huh. I guess they needed something to pay the bills.

 

[RiccochetJ]

I know people still want to say that it's Microsoft technology that is making this happen (azure and the ability to spin up and down servers) but wouldn't it be more the Cloudgine technology that lets the Azure servers ability to spin up and down to be used for computation offsetting for games? Really then they could use the same Cloudgine tech on any other cloud based servers like AWS that also has the ability to spin up and down servers?

Well, Titanfall has similar capabilities (having a server come online to host MP matches where and when it's needed.) I wouldn't be surprised if this is all handled on MS' side. I could be completely wrong though.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Hard to play Destiny, Battlefield, and Call of Duty when they're down too .

you're talking about full games, this is a feature, 2 completely different things

 

[blazinglazers]

If I was at Cloudgine I'd be rubbing my hands at the Epic vs. MS bidding war that's going to break out one day. If CD3 works, they're going to be very, very rich when they get bought by one of those companies.

Makes sense for it to go to UE4: If MS can offer up a way for PC, PS4, XBox to use Cloud then they win on consumption (which is a massive priority for the company - probably more so than using it to promote xbox sales)

Very interesting hypothetical. Once you lay it out like that, it seems like engine integration with cloud compute could be huge boon to devs & the cloud service providers.

I wonder how the fees / monetization would work.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Physics calculations are not incredibly complex.

You go buy Universe sandbox and start increasing the particle count on galaxy simulations and tell me how fast your computer takes a crap.

You're the one who is reducing what PS Now does down to "video streaming".

Calling something what it is isn't reducing it to anything, please tell me what you think PSNow is.

 

[LoveCake]

It's only similar in a very basic way (as you mention): a user's system is able to do things that it could not on its own. The implementation of the two things is completely different, though. For one, the XB1 is still processing many things on its own, namely the main guts of the game. The heavy CPU stuff is being offloaded, but the game still runs locally. So things like a user's input don't need to be transferred to/from the server. In other words, you don't need a giant amount of bandwidth to get this to work (unlike OnLive/PSNow where the bandwidth requirements are much higher).


I'm not sure if a really powerful PC, on its own, could process this much physics calculations. Considering there are instances where they're using ~14 server VMs to do the physics calculations, I have a hard time believing that even the most powerful CPUs on their own could accomplish the same thing. But maybe I'm not up to date on the most powerful processors out there.

My OP was implying the similarities in the most basic sense.

I stand corrected.

 

[Aceofspades]

Lets see, so we won't have sub-1080p games on X1!

Challenge accepted.

 

[kinggroin]

Calling something what it is isn't reducing it to anything, please tell me what you think PSNow is.

Its server side rendering on PlayStation 3 hardware output to an mp4 stream. So a video in part.

There are also interface inputs sent back and forth.


Edit: you covered that earlier.