Chairmanchuck
Member
Doesnt the US have laws against hate-speech though?
I am aware of that. They also euthanized disabled people, relatives etc. because their "genes were bad".
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Cracked: How To Actually Cover Stories About Antifa
- Thread starter TheChuggernaut
- Start date
Doesnt the US have laws against hate-speech though?
I am aware of that. They also euthanized disabled people, relatives etc. because their "genes were bad".
Principate
Saint Titanfall
The Fuck are you smoking? What is wrong with you? Seriously? How the fuck can someone be a self prounced neonazi and not be ok with that?
They are arguable worse than many Nazi's in Germany. At least some of those have the excuse of living in a police state or not full knowing the extent of the holocaust. Neo-Nazi's have no such excuse. The only difference between the two is one lacks the full power and resource of a nation state.
It is not. Only direct incitement of violence.
Very blithely explained, it's okay to say "Mexicans should be gassed" but not okay to say "let's gas some Mexicans".
Yeah. What happened in Gothenburg yesterday (or rather, what didn't happen) is a perfect example of how wrong the "both sides" argument is. Before the march, there was a lot of hand-wringing about how the AFA would turn the city into 2001 again, or another Hamburg. Guess what? Nothing happened. The Nazis lost, everyone went home happy. No rioting needed.
I'm no supporter of what happened in Hamburg (or all the other G20 meetings), but when it comes to AFA actually going after Nazis, I'm always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. There are some claims that rocks were thrown at the Nazis and that this lead to them to charging the police, but even better then. It showed everyone who they truly are.
There is no way to be liberal or on the left and not 'help' the right. There is either a weak left, as conservatives have crafted the image of the liberal into, or the image of a violent left, which is what people are trying to formulate into a negative state for liberal minded people right now.
But, the right will steer the conversation about the left either way. There isn't a 'middle' or moderate left that will shift people away from being further radicalized along the lines of extremism fomenting over the last number of years. A well reasoned left needs to exist, but it won't be doing much to begin directing the discourse.
It's not that a more readily violent left will either, but the thing with the times we are in right now, is that the left can't afford to have tolerance for fascism. It never could. A strong front must be shown and the power of reason alone is not going to be enough. Fascism breeds through taking advantage of a weaker left whose members are willing to give them a chance to air their ideas. Which shouldn't happen. Fascism is immoral, it must be shut down at every opportunity. As we don't allow for child porn in free speech, so should we not allow fascism. It leads to harm. As an ideology, that is what it wants to do, ultimately. Harm people. It has already happened, it will happen again. Liberals need to be more 'absolutely fucking not' and a fist to the face can carry that message better than reasoned discourse, at times.
But, the right will steer the conversation about the left either way. There isn't a 'middle' or moderate left that will shift people away from being further radicalized along the lines of extremism fomenting over the last number of years. A well reasoned left needs to exist, but it won't be doing much to begin directing the discourse.
It's not that a more readily violent left will either, but the thing with the times we are in right now, is that the left can't afford to have tolerance for fascism. It never could. A strong front must be shown and the power of reason alone is not going to be enough. Fascism breeds through taking advantage of a weaker left whose members are willing to give them a chance to air their ideas. Which shouldn't happen. Fascism is immoral, it must be shut down at every opportunity. As we don't allow for child porn in free speech, so should we not allow fascism. It leads to harm. As an ideology, that is what it wants to do, ultimately. Harm people. It has already happened, it will happen again. Liberals need to be more 'absolutely fucking not' and a fist to the face can carry that message better than reasoned discourse, at times.
These people aren't stupid. They're still fascists and their end goal is the same. they believe they're superior but walking through the streets with swastikas and saying they're superior isn't going to gain them support. They start small with Muslim extremists - nobody wants them, everyone would agree. Then they expand that to Muslims, "they don't fit in with our culture", people go along with it. Then they expand that further to Immigrants - "they're flooding the country and causing strain on our nation!"[/I - People still see sense in it. They subtly indoctrinate people to attack minorities with scare stories gaining support.
It was economic ruin in 1920s "caused by the Jews", now its Muslims as "a threat to German culture". It's still the same. Be careful, don't give them a place to speak.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Is there any incentive to change that in the future. That should be changed imo, because that seems to be the perfect breeding ground for socially accepted Neo-Nazi ideas.
Mind you. I dont try to. Reading all the responses maybe I am the one who still has stuff to learn and dont see how dangerous it actually is right now.
I try to learn and I must admit I might be naive about that, reading a lot of the responses here. I didnt even know Spencer spouted such Bullshit.
Ever considered that the people currently in charge of the US aren't just perfectly fine with that, but that some actually want it to happen? You're coming off as awfully naive about this, you know.
And it's not as if the situation in Europe is any better. You know about AfD, Front National, Golden Dawn, SD and the other similar parties? They're fine with it too. They're just not at the point where they can admit it yet.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Actually, we're beginning to see a different interpretation of it. For example you're beginning to see more and more of modern neo-nazis being in support of Israel. Why? Being Israel is the proto-colonial example of how to keep other races in check through apartheid.
But that shouldn't surprise you. Nazism doesn't even make sense from the perspective of a fascist like Mussolini who is credited as one of the fathers of fascism. Nazism has always been a condtradiction on its own founding, and I seriously doubt that these dumb fucks even know what it means.
But that doesn't matter because they are just using nazism to spread fear and get attention. they co-opt the symbols like nazis copied their symbols, so in that sense it's par for the course.
But, In fact many neo-nazis admire Israel, and even Richard Spencer came out and said that he want for his people what Netanyahu is doing in Israel. That is how they get away with saying antiesemite shit, but still believing in jewish colonialism.
It goes without saying that the nazis of the 1930s wouldn't have have stood for this. But this just shows you that every generation reshapes and abuses history to suit their narrative.
These white supremacists are dumb motherfuckers who are not living the values of the nazi party in WW2. Because the world is different, and modern white supremacists are concerned about stopping globalization and they see their main enemy as being muslims.
The world has changed and so has their doctrine.
It becomes a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend;
It's important not to underplay it, or make an argument in that modern white supremacists are less of a threat than the ones in 1930s. But it is important to understand that the root of this is nationalism. In the end it's the same thing, but it's not splitting hairs.
What is repeated in history is that fascism rises due to the failure of socialism, which displaced millions. Now we're seeing the displacement of people due to globalization and the rich countries in the west getting poorer (in the middle class), which in turn makes fascism/nationalism popular again as people lose faith in Democracy. So it's the same thing as last time.
But it's not due to white supremacy weeds.
It's simply that nationalism emerges in many countries that are going to shit and who are perceiving the minorities to bare the blame. Myanmar is an excellent proto example of all the same arguments as the white supremacists use. It's just on Rohingya minorities.
And you're going to see the same level of resentment and blame in Japan, Korea, Russia and elsewhere, as people the majority populations loose more and more. Because at the end of the day, people always swing to the far right in economic desperate times. It's been proven over and over again.
The big threat is that is white supremacists might exploit confusion and contrast to cause apathy, in turn making Antifa the best thing that could ever happen to neo-nazis. Here they are, trying to sell the idea that the liberal elite is out to kill them as patriots who only care about their homelands, while they shout of support for Israel. That might eventually be enough for them to reframe what it means to be a nazi and allow them to label them as a different entity.
That is dangerous. Because they know bad things on both sides breed apathy. If you look at Israel and Palastine, enough blood has been split on both sides that the entire discussion is a both sides argument that causes a great deal of people to act with apathy.
It is Israel that is oppression, but it's treated as a both-sides argument because of violence of the Palestinians in the past.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly. At this point I'm just throwing the "leave them alone" bunch under the bus with the outspoken Nazis. If you're not able to stand up for it, even in words, you're complicit.
Edit I'm being honest here, that's a really good start. I don't give up on you yet!
Corronchilejano
Member
You don't believe that given the chance a modern neonazi would commit genocide?
I've been reading Mark Brays Antifa: The Anti-Facist Handbook recently and while it definitely has its biases I think it brings up lots of good points people always forget
- Anti-facism in any form is self defence
- Violence is often the last resort for Antifa they will do lots of other options first
- Violence does sometimes work (i.e. Battle of cable street etc)
- Facists will always frame themselves as the victim wether from violence or from "attacks on their free speech"
- Most Anti-facists wish they were doing something else (i.e. Campaigning for progressive causes) and come from multiple parts of the political spectrum
- Most anti-fascists don't care if what they're doing is illegal, they are protecting those the system won't defend
- Anti-facism in any form is self defence
- Violence is often the last resort for Antifa they will do lots of other options first
- Violence does sometimes work (i.e. Battle of cable street etc)
- Facists will always frame themselves as the victim wether from violence or from "attacks on their free speech"
- Most Anti-facists wish they were doing something else (i.e. Campaigning for progressive causes) and come from multiple parts of the political spectrum
- Most anti-fascists don't care if what they're doing is illegal, they are protecting those the system won't defend
You mean like the NSU, the Nazi terror organization that murdered people?
But oh yeah right, those were mostly turkish people. I guess that doesn't hit home as close as burning cars.
That photo with guy beating cop wearing antifa jacket is fake.
Edit: I see other pointed it already.
nelsonroyale
Member
I also think the issue is much more complex than people give credite. The 'discourse' between governments at events like G20 highlight deeply problematic responses to systemic problems. Systematic change is going to be messy and I think these protests can bring a reality check to such events. My area is urban ecology and transformational design spproaches, and there is a pretty huge rhetoric - practice gap that extends across areas of sustainability, in terms of a shying away from dealing with deep systematic problems, particularly the absolute need to curtail the power of opportunistic and poorly regulated capital.
Tapioca
Banned
Nope. Americans love freedom of speech. We take the first and second amendment very seriously over here.
If the first or second amendment was ever re-written there'd be a legit uprising. Largely composed of hillbillies, but that's like 65% of the nation so..........
JustenP88
I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
And an enabler/useful idiot.
Stallion Dan
Member
I have no respect for thugs, don't care what side you are on. Violence should only be used for defense.
...and no, seeking out a alt right protest as antifa is not defending yourself, it's looking for a fight.
...and no, seeking out a alt right protest as antifa is not defending yourself, it's looking for a fight.
RedSparrows
Member
To be fair, it shouldn't be an 'in between' as in 'both sides'. Nazis are scumbags.
What it should not also be is 'you say anything critical about violence against people you dislike, you defend Nazis'.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
How woefully naĂŻve.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Exactly. Where as Nazis put their time and energy into the destruction of POC.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Yeah but both are thugs to my big centrist brain so checkmate people who care about not wanting poc to die.
radios shipping overview
Member
D-d-d-d-derailed
nelsonroyale
Member
This is a generalisation...and a naive assumption. Do you think everyone who is willing to actively oppose fascist groups are looking for a fight? Do you think fascism is dangerous enough ideology to stand up to?
Also, what constitutes defence? I suppose some antifa people would claim they are defending what they value in society against the violent threat of fascism. I suppose the fascists would say they are defending the white race against ethnic pollution. Are these stances equivalent? Personally, I think physical violence channelled through hatred is abhorrent, but I also think that physical violence enacted in face to face situations is far from the only violence that is going on.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
If they take it very seriously, why do most of them not understand it?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Anti fascist violence is but a drop in the ocean compared to the state sponsored white supremacist organizational violence.
These Nazis and alt righters are just the same continuation of the same state violence. And thatÂ’s absolutely worth fighting against.
These Nazis and alt righters are just the same continuation of the same state violence. And thatÂ’s absolutely worth fighting against.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
White America (mainly those that lean Right) don't want the boat to be rocked. But, if you don't rock the boat, nothing progressive will get accomplished. Don't make waves and the waters stagnate. Some people love living in that sorta bubble, but for those who have been beaten down because of that status quo, there is NO reason to NOT to fight against it. And maybe one HAS to FIGHT, because doing nothing, just looking at your feet as you shuffle the dirt around thinking circles of what to do next accomplishes NOTHING.
When talking about facism, an extreme, there is no in-between. Either you are against it or not. No middle ground.
Only people I see talking "both sides" and standing in the middle are those that would not be affected much by Nazi rule. Any PoC or marginalized minority group would be OUT OF THEIR MIND to talk "both sides" knowing full well there is no middle ground regarding the very people that would wish them DEAD. But white people, well, worst comes to worst, the ones that claim "both sides" can still say, "Well, I AM white, so those Nazi guys, they won't come after ME!" How privileged one must be to sleep well at night and feel so detached from the injustices and issues facing this nation, yet lecture PoC and the marginalized groups for hating those that oppress them. How FUCKIN' SWEET it must be....
nelsonroyale
Member
Here is your victim complex...holy shit. Trying to search a video which articulated how some antifa articulate I found this stuff. Mostly low brow trash content:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=interview+with+antifa
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=interview+with+antifa
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Couldn't have said it better myself, lol at thinking you can fight Nazis with anything but force. These people have proven that that are willing to kill. They just killed someone at thier last big protest and history has proven that white supremacist post world war 2 do not want a battle. They want to bully people and keeping us docile and knowing that force won't be met with the equivalent is what allows it to happen. Simply knowing that they will get a fight if they get out of line is enough to deter these people. 2017 Nazis are bullies, not race soldiers.
JustenP88
I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
That's a nice list of right-wing nutjobs.
All the "I hate thugs on both sides crowd" keep some very awesome company.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Man nobody generally gives a shit or even knows what Antifa is here in the US. Nazis, on the other hand, are well hated and despised just about universally. They are never gaining the moral high ground. Ever. They are villains and will always be villains. Doesn't matter how they dress up their garbage "philosophy", how they brand themselves. The huge majority of the world would visit violence on them without hesitation.
Stallion Dan
Member
I think anyone who goes to an alt right rally/protest/gathering in opposition to it is either looking for a fight or stupid if they expect anything else.
"Nazi's want to hurt people with violence, let's show them we're better by hurting them with violence" isn't gonna do any good.
While the alt right preach a lot of hate, nearly all the related violence has come from clashes with Antifa.
We're at a stage where the response to the alt right should be a battle of words, but instead words are ignored because of people responding in violence and creating violence. All that does is benefit the alt right because their message is shit and they'll never win that battle of words. It is not 1933 Germany, the world has changed, history is not gonna repeat itself.
This is not some inbetween 'both sides' post, people preaching hate are the definite wrong, those opposing are definite right, but that doesn't mean those opposing aren't doing it in a shitty way that doesn't help.
Stallion Dan
Member
When someone stands in front of you with a bat in their hands, that is the time to respond with violence yourself, someone saying "I hate you" is not justification to pick up a bat yourself and seek them out.
Pantaghana
Member
So what do you suggest? Leave them alone to spew their hate and terrorize minorities?
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Of course liberals will do whatever it takes to not have to take a side which means they automatically side with the Nazis by allowing them a platform
nelsonroyale
Member
Can you verify this? I mean most murders by facist groups have obviously been outside this context. There doesn't seem to be any verified murders by antifascists in contrast in the last decade or so...
I also disagree with you that just because they show up they are the ones instigated the violence. Violence is being instigated in situ by both sides...However, as this video highlights there is a bigger problem in terms of the way the media is portraying the issue. They are creating a false view of equivalence which is unhelpful to a more historically informed understanding of what is going. It is interesting though, these debates almost mirror what was going on in the 1930s in the UK...I personally think that free speech does not cover this kind of hate speech and the authorities are not doing enough to keep these thugs in line, while disproportionately often victimising other groups (such as black folks).
Again, I think your perspective here is a bit too idealistic, in a somewhat impractical and ahistorical way...
Stallion Dan
Member
Don't create a news story about two groups clashing that will drown out actual speech to end them.
The only reason Trump got to say "both sides" is because people gave him a way to.
Pantaghana
Member
So, you propose that news organizations don't report the news and keep the populace ignorant about an extremist group that wants to commit genocide?
JustenP88
I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
Stallion Dan over here acting like the guy who just called non-white hurricane victims "ingrates" is going to wait for something factual before he tries to deflect blame to political opponents.
No. Hate speech is considered a form of free speech protected by the Constitution.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
No, it's because you want to give the what they want by inviting them to come to the debate stage. It's literally in all of their literature, if you'd bother to study them. They want to have images of Richard Spencer and David Duke standing next to prominent leftists so they can place themselves as a balancing ideology. That's the whole point of the OP and why more places should stop giving them stages.
I'm sorry to say this, but every time you make this argument, Steve Bannon cheers. Because it is literally what he wants.
Stallion Dan
Member
Britain has had hate groups for decades, they were small and the media ignored them to the point most were unknown, when they started having opposing groups challenge them and the end result was violence the media reported it and these groups saw their numbers grow.
I bet those people who went to 'defend the UK from hate' thought they helped though.
All they did was give them a platform.
Stallion Dan
Member
You don't do the bolded. You don't engage with them at all. You engage with everyone else until they see their movement doesn't grow or achieve anything and dies out/shrinks to irrelevance.
The ol' ignore them strategy. Now that Trump is in the white house how do you think that's working out?
Or is he in the white house because we didn't ignore them hard enough 2014-2016?
Read this at least: https://alternativeright.hopenothate.com/my-year-inside-the-international-alt-right
Or is he in the white house because we didn't ignore them hard enough 2014-2016?
Read this at least: https://alternativeright.hopenothate.com/my-year-inside-the-international-alt-right
Those right wing hate groups in the UK regularly get demonstrations of 10, maybe 15 people. They're tiny these days.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Sticking your fingers in your ears is somehow worse than what I thought you were advocating, so there's that I guess. You can't pretend Nazis, Klanners, and the alt right are trivial. One of them is president!
baddvision
Member
what the hell?! very simple, nazi bad, hitting nazi good, period. you wanna be a nazi than keep it to yourself. don't let that manifest physically. will not be tolerated, you will be punched. get back to your nazi closet