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[fredrancour]

Kipping ... is a form of pull ups? There's nothing wrong with it, except that it's not a strict pullup.

It's a different exercise.

Some people insist it's equivalent as a measurement of strength to strict pullups,which has led to the exercise getting resented.

 

[Veezy]

I don't get why Kipping is a part of crossfit. There are other options to increase pull up reps without neglecting form.

Ahem.

Crossfit has a philosophy that work output is much more important than form and biomechanical safety.

In other words I can do 20 butterfly kips in the time I can do, say, eight pulls ups. Since the same weight was moved the same distance up and the same weight was moved faster in the kit, it's the better way to do pull ups.

Not only are kipping pull ups a waste of time, as there are better ways to develop back strength and muscular endurance, but they, quite possibly, the most dangerous movement Crossfit pushes consistently due to the constant worry of SLAP tears in the shoulder. It's one thing you have a little swing to pump out a few more reps. It's another thing to destroy your shoulder.

They do not work out a different muscle group (enough so that they should be considered a left movement) and they do not serve a purpose. If you're looking to put a hurting on your lats with high reps, might I suggest barbell rows. I hear they're kinda cool, but only loser body builders do those.

And we all know that the only real training a man can do is in board shorts, emptying your stomach out in a bucket, while you brag about your Fran time with your split open calluses.

 

[agrajag]

One of my coworkers tore his ACL recently. He's a type of person to go overboard with everything, about a year ago he had to go to the ER because he took too many over the counter training supplements (pre-workouts and such) and his body was shutting down. I'm not going to blame solely Crossfit, because he worked out way too much (he'd work out on his own when not doing crossfit, worked out six days a week some days more than once a day), but I'm sure Crossfit mentality contributed.

 

[Ultima_5]

other than going jogging a few times a week, i don't do anything. im flabby and what not. i bet my body will be in better shape than most of the people who do this sort of shit in 10 years.

 

[blackflag]

lol I did this one. 238 pages...fuck me.

fake edit: It's at 245 pages now.

I went back to the thread where I originally posted that gif and found this other gem:

Makes me cringe.

I don't see what's so bad about this. Her form isn't that bad. Not bad enough to make fun of especially considering it looks like a max effort lift. I'mo she should pull with the bar closer..touching her legs but that's about it.

 

[effzee]

I just signed up for Crossfit back in August, took foundations class beginning of September, and now have taken 5 out of the 18 classes my groupon deal was for.

So far not too bad. My problem was that I would go lift and do mainly upper body training. Very little to no cardio and shied away from leg or core workouts. Crossfit is def helping. Thankfully I heard all the negativity and the article posted in this article. I don't push myself to do anything I know my body can't handle.

I scale down if I think I'll get hurt. I go at my own pace and am more concerned with form then doing more rounds.

Definitely feel it in my core and legs. I take about 2 cross fit classes during the weekdays and still go lift on weekends. More than anything it helped switched up my schedule which for a while had been the same. I have some friends who have seen incredible results with cross fit while they lost interest in straight up lifting. I guess it works for some people better than others cause the environment is completely different.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I don't see what's so bad about this. Her form isn't that bad. Not bad enough to make fun of especially considering it looks like a max effort lift. I'mo she should pull with the bar closer..touching her legs but that's about it.

You can see her spine flexing downwards on the pull
(I understand there can be some upper back bowing when pulling heavy but it looks fully curved) and that's not how I would drop it. Control it downwards or drop it outright

 

[Veezy]

I don't see what's so bad about this. Her form isn't that bad. Not bad enough to make fun of especially considering it looks like a max effort lift. I'mo she should pull with the bar closer..touching her legs but that's about it.

I agree. The start of the pull is coachable, but the effort is obviously maxed and the arch in the back isn't extreme. I've seen uglier at powerlifiting meets.

 

[demon]

Shouldn't she be starting with her hips lower? Or maybe it's just cutting out part of the beginning of the lift..

 

[blackflag]

You can see her spine flexing downwards on the pull
(I understand there can be some upper back bowing when pulling heavy but it looks fully curved) and that's not how I would drop it. Control it downwards or drop it outright

That's how you are supposed to drop it. Controlled descent to the knee then drop it. but not by letting go.

Spine is gonna bow like that on heavy lifts.. It's not like it's fully rounding.

 

[Demon Ice]

Kipping ... is a form of pull ups? There's nothing wrong with it, except that it's not a strict pullup.

It's a different exercise.

It's also one of the easiest ways to injure your shoulder and elbow joints.
And it's drastically less effective at actually working the muscles vs a proper pull up.

 

[heliosRAzi]

What were you doing? What was your training volume (sets, reps, poundage, and time frames)? How old are you? Did you have any pre-existing kidney disease?

Just curious what it took to cause it

I was 26 at the time. I was doing an hour of cardio and then lifting weights, usually three sets of 8-10 reps of the usual stuff in about 40-60 minutes. It was heavy stuff, too - I forget how much it was, but I try not to do too much heavy lifting anymore. Up until then, the only preexisting condition I had was ACL reconstruction surgery.

Right before Christmas 2011, I got really sick with a virus that no one was able to identify. I had a high-fever, the shakes, nausea, the usual stuff, but my muscles ached. It was really hard for me to get out of bed due to the pain; I spent most of my time in bed on Christmas. Sitting down and standing up were painful.

The various docs I went to think that a virus didn't cause it, but exacerbated it. I still have muscle fatigue in my quads so I try not to work them out too much.

 

[Fatghost]

I was 26 at the time. I was doing an hour of cardio and then lifting weights, usually three sets of 8-10 reps of the usual stuff in about 40-60 minutes. It was heavy stuff, too - I forget how much it was, but I try not to do too much heavy lifting anymore. Up until then, the only preexisting condition I had was ACL reconstruction surgery.

Right before Christmas 2011, I got really sick with a virus that no one was able to identify. I had a high-fever, the shakes, nausea, the usual stuff, but my muscles ached. It was really hard for me to get out of bed due to the pain; I spent most of my time in bed on Christmas. Sitting down and standing up were painful.

The various docs I went to think that a virus didn't cause it, but exacerbated it. I still have muscle fatigue in my quads so I try not to work them out too much.

Holy shit. That sucks dude.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I knew crossfit was bullshit when I realized they used time/speed as a measure for progress. That's terrible. The only thing that matters when you lift is your form and the weight you're lifting. Wanna make progress? Lift more weights. Don't lift the same weights faster, that's just asking for an injury.

Omg that gif

 

[Pimpwerx]

I like how Dan Lebatard describes it. They shoot you out of a cannon, you get injured, then you pay them more money. Pretty much sums up Crossfit for me. My friends who do it can't do it consistently enough because they're either getting hurt or losing interest. I actually have a friend who's a chiropractor, and he does Crossfit. Guess what? He has to go see a chiropractor regularly for his own back. SMH. Like WTF are these people even thinking?

I run a mile or two each day, do about 50 pushups, 60 situps/crunches and mix in some dumbbell exercises anywhere from 3-7 days a week. I just picked up a 100lb heavy bag tonight so I can do some boxing to relieve stress and add some variety to my workouts. I'm in shape, have toned, defined muscles and most-importantly, NEVER get injured. Crossfit is just stupid human tricks. It's not at all necessary to get yourself into great shape.

Hell, I have P90X and TapoutXL and I don't even do those because I thought they were just too extreme for me. However, I'd still endorse those a million times before I'd endorse Crossfit. There's something wrong when the people putting you through such intense physical stress only need a few hours to get certified. PEACE.

 

[borghe]

omg. so this thread popped up like a few days after I got banned.. so I've been suffering through reading it.. and suffering indeed.

first a disclaimer. I've been doing crossfit for about three years. prior to crossfit I had worked out and done LOTS of running over the course of around 8 months, lost 65lbs through a calorie restriction diet.. and saw my traditional "3 sets of 10" numbers of isolation exercises go through the roof (200%+ increase on weights). about 4-5 months during that crossfit time I took a break and focused solely on calisthenics from Convict Conditioning, making it either past half way towards the final steps or making it to the final steps for umm.. pistols (one legged squats), walk in walk out bridge, and leg raises. my crossfit time was about a year and a half on my own and a year and a half at a box where I've been at since.

so, the interesting thing is this would be a much different post had I typed it after like 3-4 months of crossfit than three years. It also would have been a much different post while doing it on my own than it would have while doing it at a box.

So, some general observations on the idiocy in this thread.

"Crossfit does this to you. Or makes you do that. Or provides a mentality of blah. Crossfit hurts people. Crossfit promotes bad form."
Take some personal fucking accountability people. For fuck's sake. Crossfit doesn't hurt you. Just like running, soccer, iron man's etc. don't "hurt you". YOU hurt you. You do an overhead squat with bad form.. Did Crossfit do the overhead squat with bad form? No, you did. You are kipping 60 pullups with disengaged shoulders and no strength to actually do a pullup so you tear a rotator cuff. Did Crossfit tear your rotator cuff? No, YOU tore your rotator cuff "Bu bu but Crossfit PROMOTES you to do this stuff." Yes, and gun training courses promote people to commit crimes, and driver's ed courses promote drunk driving. We'll go into in a second what crossfit "promotes" but at No. Time. Ever. does Crossfit (either the site, the instructors or the boxes) ever promote ANYTHING above form.

A quick example. This morning was 12 minutes as many rounds, and one of the triplet was 10 Overhead Squats. Rx was 135#. What was the first thing to coach did. Go over EVERYthing for overhead squats. Locked out arms. Engaged shoulders. Contracted core throughout the movement. Bar path through the movement. THEN the coach goes on to say "If you don't have your OHS, do back squats. If you do have your OHS, I'll be walking around. If I see form issues, I'll tell you once. If I see you not correcting it, you're doing back squats." Guess what people, this is what EVERY Crossfit gym I've been to (4 in the country) have been like.

"Crossfit promotes competition above form"
This is wrong and twisting of words on what crossfit truly does (as well as.. umm.. like eVERY other workout program). Crossfit promotes competition... with yourself. Plain and simple. It is THE PRIMARY reason you keep times/score. So that if you finished Fran at 8:04, when you do Fran again and finish it in 7:56 you have a measurement. Do people really fucking believe we keep score so that that guy that's like 4 minutes ahead of me pushes me to push harder, sloppy up my form, all so he finishes only 3:55 ahead of me? Come the fuck on people. Crossfit promotes improvement. And because much of what they do is metcons, it measures METCON improvements in time. And measures strength improvements in weights or reps. Or might measure endurance improvements in rounds, or whatever.

But again, some personal fucking accountability. If you are doing a front squat workout without breaking parallel, is it crossfit doing that to you? If you are doing deadlifts and not loading your back on each pull, is that crossfit doing it to you? Lower your fucking weight and/or slow the fuck down... because YOU will hurt yourself. And you see SMART people in the gym all the time. A guy doing a workout with 60 deadlifts and he has like 110 on the bar. Good for him, seriously. He knows at that volume that's what he can do safely. Yet a guy who is frankly probably not too much more advanced right next to him with 185lb... Well clearly "Crossfit" didn't do it to THAT moron, because the other guy is at the same Crossfit gym and doing it safely and properly.

Bottom line. I can pull videos from all over youtube on bad squats, bad deadlifts, bad cleans, bad everything.. Crossfit, Gold's, Planet Fitness, etc. They all have people that are going to fucking hurt themselves.. And it sucks.. But those same people are going to hurt themselves no matter where the fuck they go. And honestly.. those same people I GUARANTEE have coaches/trainers telling them "You need to do this or that and clean up your form" and it's like talking to a wall. Crossfit is the furthest thing from those people's problem...

"Kipping [blank] doesn't really do anything. There are much better exercises."
Hey big man.. You have your strict pullup? Sweet! How about your strict chest-to-bar pullup? You have that also? Not bad. How about your strict bar muscle-up? Ok, ok, not bad. So then how about your strict ring muscle up without a false grip? Whoa.. Pretty sweet. So now get on the floor, back on the ground, and kip to your feet. Ok, now do a salmon ladder without kipping.

If you can answer all of those except for the salmon ladder in the affirmative... Honestly I bow down to you. However if you can answer all of those in the affirmative you also probably know how stupid the assertion is that kipping is worthless or that there are "other ways" to exercise those muscles better. (if you said yes to the salmon ladder, you're a fucking liar)

First some disclaimers (aka stuff I agree with). If you can't do a pullup strict... you shouldn't be doing kipping pullups. Period. You should be using resistance bands lowered and lowered until you can finally do a strict pullup. I DID see a guy at the gym this morning who did the warm up (10 pullups) kipping, and then went to do the strength (3x10 pullups strict) and he used a band. I didn't say something. I'm not a coach. No coach saw him and said something, but the coaches reiterate to us just what I said. If you don't have your strict pullup, you should be using a band for ALL pullups.

Ok, with that out of the way.. kipping is not about pullups, or toes to bars, or muscle ups, or kip ups.. Well, it isn't about any of those and is about all of those. Kipping is about engaging your core and your hips in an explosive movement which can then be propelled through either upper body or lower body strength.

One of the core tenants of Crossfit is FUNCTIONAL movements. And in terms of kipping and pullups, nothing more accentuates this functional movement that the salmon ladder. But even beyond that.. just pulling yourself up on the side of a ledge.. or on a tree branch. I can't think of a single real world instance of pulling myself up where I wouldn't give some sort of a kick/kip to pull myself up. I mean why would you? Especially if my desired net result was to press through to a muscle up or something to actually get all the way up.

So just like class this morning.. There is a place for kipping, and a place for strict. If you feel there isn't a place for kipping pullups, then go try a muscle up, bar muscle up, or salmon ladder and tell me how it went.

"Crossfit is about killing yourself and just doing lots of stuff incredibly hard til burning yourself out."

Most boxes have a metcon at the end. I admit that. Metcons are great.. It's right in the full name. Metabolic conditioning. Different than strength condition. Different than endurance, etc. Is there an over emphasis on them? Yeah, I think so.(this is one of the things I would have had a different answer for years ago) Is that bad? Not really.. Most of the gyms will also in the same session incorporate strength, mobility/flexibility, and then have stuff like endurance or plyo metrics/explosiveness, etc throughout the session. It's just preference, that's all.

All of the gyms I have been to program metcons for usually <15 minutes. A long metcon will be rare (not even once a week) and might go for 20-30 minutes. But really.. we are talking MAYBE 1-2 a month. MAYBE. Of course during open gym there are those who are doing like 45+ minute hero WODs every weekend.. But guess what.. those people are trained to the point of expecting that kind of volume on those days..

So really.. 15 minutes max.. like 3-5 days a week. That's shorter than a 5K. Harder than a 5K? Yeah (unless the workout is ACTUALLY a 5K like what's on the official site today). But can you, with good form and at a PROPER weight easily get through 15 minutes of work? Of course you can. Too easy? Add a little more weight or go a little faster next time. Too hard? Maybe you should strip some weight off that bar before you hurt yourself.

"[bunch of anti-crossfit stuff] No thanks I am going to stick with my 3 sets of 10."
And here we are at another answer that is different now than 3 years ago. Three years ago I would have said "hahahaha you fool. You are doing your isolation work, only hitting strength, only......" STFU three year younger borghe. Stop being a little bitch.

Crossfit isn't for you? You like your current routine. Honestly, that's great. The biggest fucking problem in this country is that people DON'T FUCKING GET ACTIVE. If you are active and enjoy the activity, keep. it. the. fuck. up. Seriously, kudos bro.

But... I hope you look through this, and some links below.. And understand that, Crossfit isn't unsafe. It's not about being crazy. It's not about abuse. It's about the same thing your routine is about. Getting stronger, building and improving the fundamentals, and being better tomorrow than you were today. The morons in crossfit (trainers and members) are the same morons that are at Gold's, YMCA, Planet Fitness, 24 Hour Fitness, Bally's, or one of the THOUSANDS of other gyms out there. Are there bad Crossfit gyms? I've never been to one but I have to believe there are. The same way there are god fucking awful personal trainers as well. And idiots at the gym doing deadlifts with rounded backs or doing "back squats" that are really quarter squats because their form can't handle doing even half of that weight all the way to the floor. Doing Crossfit right is incredible. Better than [insert program here]? That's for each person to decide.

I should point out one last thing. I am forever grateful to a friend for introducing me to crossfit and glad I at least started it on my own... BUT, the one thing I would ABSOLUTELY suggest against is you, as newb weight dude who has never done an olympic lift in his life, from trying it on your own. And no, watching videos doesn't cut it. I was very very very fortunate in that the big box globo gym I was at had a trainer who, even though I wasn't paying him or taking classes from him, for some reason took an interest in me (or at least what I was doing). I swear for the first 3-6 months it would be him coming in, yelling at me for doing EVERYTHING wrong, and me working like crazy to fix it. And I did fix it. And he would come in a time later and say "omg.. remember when you were bringing up cleans almost completely with your arms? I thought for certain I would be calling EMT's before I had a chance to say anything." Yeah people.. don't be me... Go to a Crossfit gym (if you want to do crossfit) and most have an onramp class where at the very least they will go over deadlifts, back squats and front squats. Get a foundation before doing this shit or you WILL hurt yourself.

Anyway.. here's some good retorts to the stupid fucking piece in the OP

http://www.deucegym.com/crossfits-dirty-little-secret-a-rebuttal/

https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/6d606a0b7d31

 

[borghe]

oh, AND to those mocking, ridiculing or otherwise criticizing those girls doing crossfit while pregnant, umm.. what. the. fuck!?!

Pregnancy isn't a disease. It's not an injury. Almost EVERY doctor in existence will absolutely recommend activity while pregnant. IF (as gone into in depth above) the woman is doing movements safely, and at a weight and speed that she can SAFELY handle, why wouldn't she do (in the case of the picture) an overhead squat?

Now obviously common sense should kick in (which clearly it hasn't with some of you). Box jumps? Yeah, probably a pretty bad idea (though step up step down is perfectly fine)... Pullups? Eh, if the chick can do like 25lb+ weighted pullups, more power to her.. cleans and snatches? I HAVE seen pregnant women do them fine, but most will immediately admit it gets really tough once you start getting bigger.

With all fitness and working out, it just takes an iota of common sense. If someone can do something safely and correctly, then it doesn't matter if they are pregnant, 13 years old, 80 years old, one legged, one armed, or honestly even injured (depending on injury and mobility) This thought that "You shouldn't be physically active because [blank]" is just condescending bullshit. Yes there are times when you should rest and refrain from or reduce activity. And your body will let you know those times as clear as the nose on your face. But if you are able to do this stuff (crossfit or ANY activity) and do it safely and properly, and feel good while doing it.. why wouldn't you? Even if some self-righteous know it all internet assholes criticize and laugh about you doing it?

Certainly healthier to see a pregnant girl doing overhead squats than a pregnant girl sitting on the couch eating from the time she gets home til the time she goes to sleep (bed rest an obvious exception). About the worst I could imagine being pregnant and exercising (aside from the obvious massive discomfort) would be that you probably never stop eating. Shit I already feel like I am eating all the time, but to support your body's nutrition while pregnant and exercising? Damn..

 

[SeanR1221]

Nothing wrong with a pregnant woman exercising. But doing compound barbell movements? Come on.

 

[reaver18]

I don't see what's so bad about this. Her form isn't that bad. Not bad enough to make fun of especially considering it looks like a max effort lift. I'mo she should pull with the bar closer..touching her legs but that's about it.

Yeah her form isn't that bad, but she should not be lifting that much weight. There is no point in lifting that much weight. All it does is cause long term damage to joints, ligaments, bones, etc.

 

[MjFrancis]

Yeah her form isn't that bad, but she should not be lifting that much weight. There is no point in lifting that much weight. All it does is cause long term damage to joints, ligaments, bones, etc.

That one-rep max attempt was probably the most satisfying moment of her week. I'd wager that lift is among the things she considers that make life worth living.

If anything I hope there's a gif of her out there where she's lifting more weight with better form. More power to her.

Also, why does lifting heavy things damage joints and ligaments? At what weight or percentage of weight moved does this damage occur?

 

[captmorgan]

Yeah her form isn't that bad, but she should not be lifting that much weight. There is no point in lifting that much weight. All it does is cause long term damage to joints, ligaments, bones, etc.

Honest question, do you lift weights?

Because the first time I benched 305 was fucking incredible, was my form perfect? probably to defiantly not. But that moment made all the hours in the gym come together and was almost indescribable.

 

[Petrie]

Yeah her form isn't that bad, but she should not be lifting that much weight. There is no point in lifting that much weight. All it does is cause long term damage to joints, ligaments, bones, etc.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Heavy lifting helps to strengthen those things.

 

[borghe]

Nothing wrong with a pregnant woman exercising. But doing compound barbell movements? Come on.

And do you have anything else besides "Come on."? I mean I'm not trying to be a dick, really. If there is some reason she shouldn't be I'm all ears. If it's just because it seems weird to you, well shit every single participant in every single marathon out there seems 1,000,000 times more weird to me than a pregnant woman doing an overhead squat.

 

[poisonelf]

I generally respect dedication and passion, but your tone here, and most of your arguments, reinforce the whole 'cult' mentality for me if anything. Sorry, I'm just saying what I feel after reading all this.

"Crossfit does this to you. Or makes you do that. Or provides a mentality of blah. Crossfit hurts people. Crossfit promotes bad form."
Take some personal fucking accountability people. For fuck's sake. Crossfit doesn't hurt you. Just like running, soccer, iron man's etc. don't "hurt you". YOU hurt you. You do an overhead squat with bad form.. Did Crossfit do the overhead squat with bad form? No, you did. You are kipping 60 pullups with disengaged shoulders and no strength to actually do a pullup so you tear a rotator cuff. Did Crossfit tear your rotator cuff? No, YOU tore your rotator cuff "Bu bu but Crossfit PROMOTES you to do this stuff." Yes, and gun training courses promote people to commit crimes, and driver's ed courses promote drunk driving. We'll go into in a second what crossfit "promotes" but at No. Time. Ever. does Crossfit (either the site, the instructors or the boxes) ever promote ANYTHING above form.

Really? It's not "Crossfit's" (meaning the on site trainer's) responsibility to spot bad form? To stop it and try to fix it? To certainly not teach it (like many videos show)?

This reminds me my first grappling gym many years ago, where the trainer would have us slam one another around, and when injuries would occur he would say that "it's your fault, that's not what I showed, you should be better trained and more careful".

WELL NO SHIT. It IS my fault for not being a professional wrestler I guess, and not having the perfect form and flexibility which you didn't teach me or let me develop, and attempting advanced techniques which you asked of me, right?

The current gym where I train and the instructors are local or international champions at wrestling or boxing, wouldn't even let us lightly grapple before months of learning how to properly fall for example.

If half of the rumors about the majority of crossfit "boxes" being taught by clueless instructors who just underwent a few weeks or months of seminars are true, the it IS crossfit's problem.

"Crossfit promotes competition above form"

But again, some personal fucking accountability. If you are doing a front squat workout without breaking parallel, is it crossfit doing that to you? If you are doing deadlifts and not loading your back on each pull, is that crossfit doing it to you? Lower your fucking weight and/or slow the fuck down... because YOU will hurt yourself. And you see SMART people in the gym all the time. A guy doing a workout with 60 deadlifts and he has like 110 on the bar. Good for him, seriously. He knows at that volume that's what he can do safely. Yet a guy who is frankly probably not too much more advanced right next to him with 185lb... Well clearly "Crossfit" didn't do it to THAT moron, because the other guy is at the same Crossfit gym and doing it safely and properly.

So the examples mentioned in this thread about trainers putting buckets around for people to puke in, because that's what a good workout should result in, and other similar cases, are all lies, or still not crossfit's problem since the trainee should 'take accountability' and disregard the idiot trainer whom he paid to train him?

From what I understand from the rest of your post, the vast majority of gyms you've been to are great and professional. But that would make you the exception, or most other cases being presented here coincidental piling up of constant 'exceptions'.
Not to mention that you seem to accept any injury or mistaken form as being the student's fault.

Anyway, since you've had great results and you love it, obviously good for you. But you can't just discount all these anecdotal or recorded accounts and videos of destructive form, injury-inviting moves, and crazy, clueless instructors. They can't all be rare exceptions.

Lastly, exercising while pregnant is one thing (walking, running, swimming, some aerobics), and lifting heavy weights is completely different. I have trouble believing most doctors would recommend that.

 

[demon]

Honest question, do you lift weights?

Because the first time I benched 305 was fucking incredible, was my form perfect? probably to defiantly not. But that moment made all the hours in the gym come together and was almost indescribable.

Defiant in your form? Sounds like crossfit.

Spoiler

j/k

 

[FallingEdge]

Yeah her form isn't that bad, but she should not be lifting that much weight. There is no point in lifting that much weight. All it does is cause long term damage to joints, ligaments, bones, etc.

lol what?

no no no. That isn't true at all.

 

[OldRoutes]

It's also one of the easiest ways to injure your shoulder and elbow joints.
And it's drastically less effective at actually working the muscles vs a proper pull up.

Can you support your first point? It seems like a lot of bro-science bullshit, no offense. There's a form for kipping, and of course you could teach bad form. But kipping has been around for years, and it's been used in gymnastics, mainly.

I'm pretty sure any badly done shoulders exercises would injure you quite as much.

What are "the muscles"? What group of muscles are you talking about? Are you implying that a bent over row doesn't work "the muscles" as much as a pull-up? What about a chin up? They're different exercise with different muscles groups involved.

Really? It's not "Crossfit's" (meaning the on site trainer's) responsibility to spot bad form? To stop it and try to fix it? To certainly not teach it (like many videos show)?

It is. If you pay him. But what's the point of saying that? Is your gym responsible because you're a shitty Sunday athlete and you just go around doing every machine in the room? No.

 

[captmorgan]

Defiant in your form? Sounds like crossfit.

Spoiler

j/k

lol Dont worry my form got better, when I did it for 3.

 

[poisonelf]

It is. If you pay him. But what's the point of saying that? Is your gym responsible because you're a shitty Sunday athlete and you just go around doing every machine in the room? No.

From the one crossfit workout I've watched (didn't actually train there myself), and from the videos here, I'm under the impression that crossfit is more like an MMA workout, with a trainer present who instructs and corrects as the training takes place.

Not like a cheap weight lifting gym where you can just go alone and start doing whatever comes to mind with the single trainer present being stuck at the reception.

 

[OldRoutes]

From the one crossfit workout I've watched (didn't actually train there myself), and from the videos here, I'm under the impression that crossfit is more like an MMA workout, with a trainer present who instructs and corrects as the training takes place.

Not like a cheap weight lifting gym where you can just go alone and start doing whatever comes to mind with the single trainer present being stuck at the reception.

What's the difference in putting Crossfit gym in the same basket then? Why don't you go around saying "Gym sucks because when I went the guy was stuck at the reception"?

Crossfit does not advocate bad form, that is a mad misconception. Why would they? What would they gain in making people injure themselves?

Then, there's the point of regular, out of shape people joining Crossfit gym and injuring themselves. Yeah, that happens in regular gym too. Out of shape people are out of shape people.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

The idea that crossfit is aimed at functional strength is absolutely bullshit.

If you do basic compound lifts slowly, and progressively increase the weights, then you'll increase your body's entire muscular capacity. The only thing you might be doing in crossfit is conditioning yourself and even then I don't know how many people flip tires and perform kipping pullups on a regular basis.

 

[SeanR1221]

And do you have anything else besides "Come on."? I mean I'm not trying to be a dick, really. If there is some reason she shouldn't be I'm all ears. If it's just because it seems weird to you, well shit every single participant in every single marathon out there seems 1,000,000 times more weird to me than a pregnant woman doing an overhead squat.

Because you have a greater risk of injury doing those movements. Not worth the risk when pregnant, even if it's easy and you know you have good form.

 

[h_a_t]

**mic drop**

Well said and saved me time on writing a similar posts.
That said, everyone's encounter with crossfit is different.
I'm fortunate enough that the box I go to have coaches who were collegiate level athletes, olympic weightlifting competitors, and Regional and Games competitors.
Not only that, but they're very cautious with progressing people to different movements and weights. On top of that, there's a month long intro that is mandatory for anyone new.
We will get checked...you can't clean and jerk 185, down to 135 you go.
You can't deadlift 225 for reps, down to 185 you go.

I know this is not the case as I've been to boxes that my friends go to, as well as boxes when I'm traveling, and it's down right ugly some of the time and many of the comments in this thread making fun of crossfit would be justified.


And everything you say about crossfit can be applied to many other disciplines.
I've trained with supposed champion thai fighters, BJJ Brown belts, golden glove boxers, and it's been a mixed bag of everything from legit to "seriously...who did you fight and train with?"
Personal trainers at traditional gyms that have no right teaching anything dealing with fitness, much less barbell complexes.

 

[borghe]

Really? It's not "Crossfit's" (meaning the on site trainer's) responsibility to spot bad form? To stop it and try to fix it? To certainly not teach it (like many videos show)?

But where did I contradict any of that? It is EVERY trainer's job to do those things. Crossfit, sports, whatever! And nothing I said implies otherwise. However a trainer can coach and coach and coach but if a member chooses to actively or passively disregard all of it... I have seen trainers force members to strip weight, to your point. But they are coaches, not babysitters. I mean what then, kick them out of the gym? Revoke their membership? There has to be a common ground between what I'm saying and where you are going. It is absolutely about personal accountability while at the same time trainers making sure their clients have the tools and knowledge to be safe. "Crossfit" doesn't spit in the face of any of that, nor do many of the gyms licensed under it.

lots if assumptions and generalizations about crossfit

The problem with assumptions and generalizations is that at some point they always end up wrong. Some Crossfit gyms are hazardous shit holes, some produce some of the fittest people on the planet.

From what I understand from the rest of your post, the vast majority of gyms you've been to are great and professional. But that would make you the exception, or most other cases being presented here coincidental piling up of constant 'exceptions'.
Not to mention that you seem to accept any injury or mistaken form as being the student's fault.

There is a serious disconnect between your and my posts. There is a fine line between bad teaching and bad execution. My defense of crossfit from a stand point of personal accountability was as a brand. The coaches themselves absolutely have a responsibility to teach properly, build up skills properly, etc. That is absolutely on them. But you can have the greatest trainer in the world and still have someone get hurt under him because they didn't use what they learned. That separation has to be recognized. It seems to you I'm putting it all on the individual and I'm not. I'm going on the basis that they've been doing this for long enough that their coaches have them all of the instruction. If the coaches didn't, that's on the gym/coach. If the individual simply disregards it, that's on the individual.

Anyway, since you've had great results and you love it, obviously good for you. But you can't just discount all these anecdotal or recorded accounts and videos of destructive form, injury-inviting moves, and crazy, clueless instructors. They can't all be rare exceptions.

It's stupid for either of us to declare or insist frequency. What, there are like 5,000 CF gyms world wide or something? And we even have examples that are "crossfit" with no attribution beyond just calling it that. Does this shit happen? Of course. Frequently? Who knows. In three years I haven't seen much stupidity.

Lastly, exercising while pregnant is one thing (walking, running, swimming, some aerobics), and lifting heavy weights is completely different. I have trouble believing most doctors would recommend that.

And again, why? Do you have a reason, or is it just because pregnant women are delicate and fragile?

Because you have a greater risk of injury doing those movements. Not worth the risk when pregnant, even if it's easy and you know you have good form.

I actually don't disagree with your concerns. With that being said we don't know the story. Maybe it was a training bar with 10s on it. Maybe it was like 40% of her 1RM. If she was taking unnecessary risk you are absolutely right. If it was an easy weight for her to get some compound movement work in, why not?

 

[IceCold]

What's the difference in putting Crossfit gym in the same basket then? Why don't you go around saying "Gym sucks because when I went the guy was stuck at the reception"?

Crossfit does not advocate bad form, that is a mad misconception. Why would they? What would they gain in making people injure themselves?

Then, there's the point of regular, out of shape people joining Crossfit gym and injuring themselves. Yeah, that happens in regular gym too. Out of shape people are out of shape people.

I've said this before but the actual premise of cross fit is flawed. You should never do compound lifts using a stop timer. You should never use speed as a measure for progress. So the idea of good or bad boxes is moot. Since if they are doing crossfit they are doing that. Otherwise they are simply using the brand name to gain exposure.

 

[borghe]

I've said this before but the actual premise of cross fit is flawed. You should never do compound lifts using a stop timer. You should never use speed as a measure for progress. So the idea of good or bad boxes is moot. Since if they are doing crossfit they are doing that. Otherwise they are simply using the brand name to gain exposure.

Umm. Wow. You are just... Wrong. Tempo lifts? Row/run times? Measure of of intensity over power output? This is shit that has been around for centuries. The only attribution to Crossfit is putting a mainstream light on them.

That's really the amazing part here. Crossfit didn't "invent" any of this shit. This is all eastern compound periodization that has been recorded as early as mid 19th century. Shit that is the biggest LEGIT complaint about Crossfit... That it really didn't do anything but apply a branding to centuries old knowledge.

 

[andycapps]

Layne Norton did a good video on the subject in the OP. I'm sure someone else has posted it over the previous pages, if not, look it up. Basically, he thinks Crossfit can get a really bad rap, but that rhabdomyolysis is pretty rare and only occurs in inexperienced lifters that try to do way too much work. Several hours of ultra intense workouts, and then their kidneys start shutting down because they can't keep up with things so they start shutting down.

Honestly, I could see that being a problem for new people going to certain Crossfit gyms and feeling pressured to go balls to the wall for hours while they were still new to it. Could be a problem in any workout scenario, but a system that pushes intensity and time would seem to have more risk.

 

[SeanR1221]

And again, why? Do you have a reason, or is it just because pregnant women are delicate and fragile?

I actually don't disagree with your concerns. With that being said we don't know the story. Maybe it was a training bar with 10s on it. Maybe it was like 40% of her 1RM. If she was taking unnecessary risk you are absolutely right. If it was an easy weight for her to get some compound movement work in, why not?

Accidents are accidents because they are unpredictable. You still risk injury at 40% of your 1rm. Now for your normal person that shouldn't matter because every sport and activity comes with a risk of injury. When you're pregnant it's different. What if the bar was accidentally dropped and it hits her stomach?

 

[OldRoutes]

I've said this before but the actual premise of cross fit is flawed. You should never do compound lifts using a stop timer. You should never use speed as a measure for progress. So the idea of good or bad boxes is moot. Since if they are doing crossfit they are doing that. Otherwise they are simply using the brand name to gain exposure.

I agree 100% with that. The whole "do it as fast as possible with a lot of weights" is really, really bad practice.

However, this has nothing to do with ; kipping pull ups, crossfit being responsible for bad forms and pregnant women working out.

You could probably link them all together and still find valuable reasons to hate Crossfit, but I'm just saying that there's a nuance to all that hate.

 

[APF]

Kipping is about engaging your core and your hips in an explosive movement which can then be propelled through either upper body or lower body strength.

Congratulations, you've created a worse clean.

 

[Draft]

Crossfit is dumb. Even the world's greatest athletes don't do Crossfit. They do strength training, then they do interval training, and everyone once in a while they do a Fran.

Oly lifts for time is dumb, deadlifts for time is dumb, squats for time is not as dumb but still kind of dumb, box jumps for reps combined with any of the above is dumb, an exercise program comprised of whatever rando movements home office puts on the main site is dumb, girls in xfit gear is NOT dumb, guys in xfit gear are dumb, zone is dumb, paleo is pretty dumb and kinesio tape is dumb.

Crossfit was the dumb womb from which a very cool movement of oly lifts, strength training and serious cardio was born. Those that remain in the womb are dumb.

 

[borghe]

Congratulations, you've created a worse clean.

congratulations, you've just compared a clean to a kip in some horrific attempt to make... I would guess a point, but I can't find it.

Show me how to do a salmon ladder without kipping. Or a kip up without kipping.

Kipping is a movement.. A gymnastics movement (and later adopted by martial arts).

 

[OldRoutes]

Crossfit is dumb. Even the world's greatest athletes don't do Crossfit. They do strength training, then they do interval training, and everyone once in a while they do a Fran.

Wait, what? "World's greatest athletes" don't do Crossfit? What does that even mean or prove?

A lot of athletes are doing Crossfits : swimmers, rowers, water polo players, etc. Some have been at the Olympics.

Some of the "world's greatest athletes" are also wearing stupid energy bands and sponsor dubious things like "coconut water", do you also support those? Or do you cherry pick?

 

[APF]

Kipping is a movement.. A gymnastics movement (and later adopted by martial arts).

No shit? Congratulations, you discovered a movement. But your point appeared to be describing the purpose of doing that movement as an exercise. Now you're saying it's a transitional skill you must lean in order to do eg salmon ladders. Eg not an exercise in an of itself. Eg there's no point in doing them if you're not learning how to do salmon ladders. Thanks for validating everyone else's point.

 

[borghe]

No shit? Congratulations, you discovered a movement. But your point appeared to be describing the purpose of doing that movement as an exercise. Now you're saying it's a transitional skill you must lean in order to do eg salmon ladders. Eg not an exercise in an of itself. Eg there's no point in doing them if you're not learning how to do salmon ladders. Thanks for validating everyone else's point.

"eg" means "as example", fyi. It makes no sense in the context of your post.

Wouldn't a pull up transition into a bar muscle up eventually? Or that someone would want it to? I know I did when learning bar muscle ups and ring muscle ups.

Or what if someone did want to train a salmon ladder?

Or what if someone was doing max effort strict pullups for strength, and then doing kips on the last few for additional work on negatives?

there is more to kipping and uses for it than just doing a pull up with a kip. e.g. transitioning to another skill that extends from the basic of a pull up or as strength work for strength beyond just the pull (see how you use eg?)

but hey bud.. however you want to approach fitness. I mean surely every time I kip to a movement it must be stupid because you say so. Hey, let's have a max MU contest some time and you can show me how stupid it is!

 

[Draft]

Wait, what? "World's greatest athletes" don't do Crossfit? What does that even mean or prove?

A lot of athletes are doing Crossfits : swimmers, rowers, water polo players, etc. Some have been at the Olympics.

Some of the "world's greatest athletes" are also wearing stupid energy bands and sponsor dubious things like "coconut water", do you also support those? Or do you cherry pick?

Crossfit labels the winners of the Xfit games the world's greatest athletes. The winners of the xfit games don't do xfit. They lift heavy, do intensity conditioning, and a fran every few months.

 

[Sarye]

And do you have anything else besides "Come on."? I mean I'm not trying to be a dick, really. If there is some reason she shouldn't be I'm all ears. If it's just because it seems weird to you, well shit every single participant in every single marathon out there seems 1,000,000 times more weird to me than a pregnant woman doing an overhead squat.

Pregnant woman shouldn't be lifting heavy because of the risk of injury to the baby. Dropping a bar on her belly can't be good. Plus studies have shown that frequent lifting (not necessarily weight lifting) causes higher chances of preterm delivery. Overall, why risk it?

Crossfit can be good, but my biggest problem with crossfit is that they start off newbies too fast. Sure, lots of pro athletes have used crossfit to supplement their routine but they are pros and they know their body limits. When I started weight lifting. I was told to use an empty bar and get used to the movement before I increased the weights. I was trained of the importance of form and that a rep with bad form does not count to dissuade trying to push for one more terribly.

Now crossfit is not against that. Officially they promote safe workouts. But because it is a community based thing that focuses more on speed and lifts over time, form is easily lost. It's their methodology that I have a problem with. The newbies are thrown in to the fire attempting to do these compound movements just set them up for injury.

Heck, their own official forums have a section dedicated to Injuries that consists of half of their largest section.

 

[APF]

Wouldn't a pull up transition into a bar muscle up eventually?

Only if the trainee wanted specifically to perform that skill.

Or that someone would want it to? I know I did when learning bar muscle ups and ring muscle ups.

Or what if someone did want to train a salmon ladder?

In both cases, the kip is a skill to be learned and not an exercise to be performed in and of itself.

Or what if someone was doing max effort strict pullups for strength, and then doing kips on the last few for additional work on negatives?

So again, something that might happen naturally every once in a while in very specific circumstances, but not as an exercise to be performed for its own sake.

(see how you use eg?)

Yes, apparently it stands for "douchey."

but hey bud.. however you want to approach fitness.

Fitness? I thought you were talking about learning skills.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

but hey bud.. however you want to approach fitness. I mean surely every time I kip to a movement it must be stupid because you say so. Hey, let's have a max MU contest some time and you can show me how stupid it is!

 

[OldRoutes]

Crossfit labels the winners of the Xfit games the world's greatest athletes. The winners of the xfit games don't do xfit. They lift heavy, do intensity conditioning, and a fran every few months.

What's the source of that? Where do you get that from?