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CrowbCat: Dead Rising 4 is not Dead Rising

Spot on and I'm glad CrowbCat addressed this. The way they have removed all the elements that made this series unique and watered it down into a 'wacky dynasty warriors' has been very sad to watch. When people say DR1 had survival elements they were right. It might not have looked like a Silent Hill or RE game like what people think when they hear that word, but there was a huge element of scrounging supplies and weapons and trying to save everyone from an actual dangerous enemy (zombies, before they were a complete pushover due to overpowered weapons and abilities) while also fighting against time. If you wanted to save a survivor you had to look at what you would give up to do it. Everything was a tradeoff. Want to go get some more health supplies and weapons to beef up for a boss fight? Well you may just have to let that one survivor die because of it. Stuff like that is what made the game special.
 
Yesssss. CrowbCat is the best. So disappointed in Dead Rising 4 and what's been shown so far. Identity of the series has been scrapped to appeal to the lowest common denominator ("Herp derp I hate timers, herp derp I just wanna kill zombies, herp derp Dead Rising was always as crazy as Saints Row").

This is a quality piece of comment garbage.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
The final part of the video is what really drives it home.
I still plan to play DR4 at some point. But so much has been lost from what I originally liked. Which is odd considering where I stand as a RE fan, but regardless of that. It's still really jarring to see with dead rising. Since it doesn't feel like the evolution RE had into where I got.

You didn't have the classic style gameplay toned down and changed so much. Rather you had the entire formula changed and reworked while keeping some in tact with RE4. Which then started its own thing. With DR4 it's keeping the original formula and just destroying the uniqueness it had to stand out from other titles.

I think a lot of people wouldn't be so mad as the video pointed out. If there wasn't a lot of the whole "this is for the fans we love Dead Rising 1" and they show this.

Would be like capcom going "RE6 is a true return to form, we love the earlier games and really took inspiration from it. Sell your game as what it is. Don't try to hide behind something that obviously isn't true.
 
Maniacs?

These developers are calling it 'my world' when they don't understand anything about what made the original so great?

What a big fat mess.
 

Anung

Un Rama
Playing the original again only reminded me how much I dislike the way things have gone. I didn't even like 2 that much tbh.

The series might as well be Saints Row now.
 

xabbott

Member
They removed all the stuff that kept away from the series. I'll still wait for reviews but now I'll actually pay attention to the game.
 

SkyOdin

Member
I have no issue with people liking different things. But given we're on a discussion forum, at least come up with a better reason for why the timer should stay outside "difficulty and tension".

Because you know, apparently those things can't exist in games without a timer now?



This is basically the only post I've seen make a compelling argument for keeping the timer.
At its core, Dead Rising isn't a series about fighting zombies. The zombies are a core part of the experience, but killing them isn't the games goal. The zombies respawn infinitely, so you can never wipe them out. At the same time, you can just walk past them without too much difficulty. The zombies are a stage hazard, not an antagonist.

The main challenge, the primary goal of the gameplay in the first and second games, was two-fold: rescuing survivors and reaching objectives on time. As an aggressive stage hazard, the zombies functioned perfectly as a foil to those two goals. While the zombies pose little threat to the player, they do pose a threat to survivors and impede the player's progress. So, the threat posed by the zombies changes dramatically by introducing survivor escort missions and having to worry about the clock.

At their core, Dead Rising 1 and 2 are similar to Demon/Dark Souls in that the most important skill the player has to learn is "knowing where everything is". What are the safe routes, where you can find healing items, which are the best weapons for various scenarios, and who you can save at which time. Dead Rising is a game you are not meant to clear on your first try, but on your second try you are armed with more knowledge.

Without timers, without survivors to rescue, without the chance of messing up, what is the gameplay about? Killing zombies for its own sake gets stale after the first thousand, and zombie stories are not the most riveting or deep. What is added to replace the timer?
 

Deadbeat

Banned
This is going to turn into a DmC situation where the fans reject the direction the series has gone and then they are accused of being 'entitled'.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
If I could only change two things my biggest requests would be.

-Tone down the goofiness.
DR2 is about the extent the series should go I feel. Seeing Exo suits and tornado weapons is just wrong. RE might jump the shark in some eyes, but at least most of the stuff fits better. You don't see chris getting into a mech to fight giant BOWs Godzilla style or something.
-Change Frank West.
You can keep him there. But there needs to be work done. The original VA could do a older voice, let him do it. Also for being older, frank looks younger than he did in DR2. This frank is frank in name only it seems, which is not what the fans were asking for in Gus return.

The timer I miss, but I can understand why that's out. DR3 was kinda the final nail in the coffin. Psychopaths are a big miss as well, but then again, they've been very hit & miss after the 1st game.

This is going to turn into a DmC situation where the fans reject the direction the series has gone and then they are accused of being 'entitled'.

More than likely. I even like DmC. But I totally understand where DMC fans come from when talking about it. There might be some extreme hyperbole, but a lot of their points still stand.
It's indeed gonna be the same case here. I'm sure the game for what it is, isn't even gonna be all that bad. But the video shows why a group of fans aren't gonna be on board with it.
 
The game looks all right, perhaps it'll be fun. I'm just having a hard time digesting the team's decisions on axing certain gameplay elements that were previously pretty vital to the series' overall motif. It sounds like this one maybe went a bit overboard on the focus-testing.
 

ant_

not characteristic of ants at all
DR1 and DR2 are amazing games. I lost interest at Dead Rising 3.

No more psychopaths in this game...? I understand they are trying to appeal to a wider audience but it feels like the game has lost its soul.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Neither was DR3 but I still enjoyed it for what it is

DR3 wouldn't have been bad if Nightmare Mode (with a slightly less fast countdown. It felt faster than DR1-2's) was the normal mode in addition to better zombie batting away/a little less crowded.

Which I know sounds insane given DR1-2/OTR were known for pushing zombie numbers last gen. But 3 felt a little too "Dynasty Warriors" for me. The BEST way of getting around was using the cars (even with all the fucking stupid roadblocks). So dumb.

Deadbeat said:
This is going to turn into a DmC situation where the fans reject the direction the series has gone and then they are accused of being 'entitled'.

Sad, but true. Capcom needs to learn to listen to fans. It's clear they gave Vancouver carte blanche to do whatever they wanted after 3 and fans are balking.

The CGI trailer was fun and funny with the holiday theme and "GOING BACK TO WILLAMETTE!" BUT, everything they've shown off since has just been... bad. It's DR3-2, and I don't want that. I want DR1 in 4K, basically. I want Frank to spout meme-quality lines "I'VE COVERED WARS, YA KNOW!?" but at the same time, I don't need him to be an ass.

I also want him to look like Frank. FFS, this "Frank" they're pushing looks even younger than the DR1 one. WTF?
 

Kalentan

Member
It was a selectively edited attack ad with him cherry picking vidocs and pressing them against footage of 343 at cons and such to paint of picture of humble and cool vs loud and dudebro.

And in the middle of all that he got so into his feelings he just edited in someone shouting "Black Ops 3"

Yeah no, fuck his "not muh" videos.

Yeah and people eat it up. It was the very definition of appealing to what people think rather than what is the reality.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
Dead Rising at its core is a game about time management. Removing the timer removes what makes dead Rising unique and interesting.

To folks who hate the timer, the solution is to not play Dead Rising and not celebrate the gutting of what made the game cool.

It'd be like asking for Call of Duty to be a racing game instead of a shooter because you don't like shooters. Would it not be better to just go play a racing game?
 
lol as fun as the game looked in some of the gameplay vids i saw, yikes this has changed so damn much.

What a shame for a franchise to lose its identity so damn much
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I mean frank west kills the shadow of his former self (dr1 frank) in the prologue dream he has, ofc it's not dr

I think it's playing up the "Off the Record"/Hero of Willamette angle. Which is fine, in itself. But man... they kinda have fucked up his characterization.

Which reminds me, what the fuck did they do with Isabella in 3!?
She starts the LA--er--Los Pallides or whatever it's called outbreak to find the "Time Bomb" of Carlito's that is a kid that was made by a US soldier impregnating a Santa Cabeza woman and sending them to the US for outbreaks later on. This "Time Bomb" is Nick who is apparently immune and able to survive the Zombie Outbreak. She does this solely so she can find Nick and the cure and "be a hero like that damn Frank West and Chuck Greene. Fuck them both."
What the fuck!?

Negative to you, positive for me. I don't think this game without a timer matches Dying Light, they would still be clearly different in just mechanics alone.

I don't mind tense gaming, but I don't want it implemented with a timer.

So don't do the cases, don't save survivors. BOOM, there is your 3 day sandbox mode. Why do they have to remove the timer for you when the timer works just fine as it was. Even Crowb mentions this in the last bit of the fucking video: Do whatever the hell you want while the timer ticks down. You kill Brad or forget the Cases? No big deal, you get a sandbox mode for the next 6 hours. If you don't want that, reload your save.

DR3 (and by proxy 2: Off the Record) just showed how boring the sandbox is when you don't have the timer to move things forward.
 

Neptonic

Member
This game feels like a dumbed down Saints Row version of DR1. I'm sure people will like it, but it's just a generic open world game to me now.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Game looks disappointing IMO. I knew DR3 took out some of the charm, but this seems even more tone deaf.

The timer is a core mechanic and the psychopaths were one of the best parts of the game. Removing the personality of the psychos seems like it'll make the fights uninteresting. Mixing foods together was one of my favorite ways to kill time, what's the point of completely cutting it out?

Which fans were asked about these changes? Seems more like people who didn't like Dead Rising were asked.
 

Coda

Member
Dead Rising has kind of been bad since DR2 to DR3. The first one just had charm and was somewhat impressive for the time. The other games never gave me the laughs and fun the first title gave me.
 

hawk2025

Member
Game looks disappointing IMO. I knew DR3 took out some of the charm, but this seems even more tone deaf.

The timer is a core mechanic and the psychopaths were one of the best parts of the game. Removing the personality of the psychos seems like it'll make the fights uninteresting. Mixing foods together was one of my favorite ways to kill time, what's the point of completely cutting it out?

Which fans were asked about these changes? Seems more like people who didn't like Dead Rising were asked.

But now you get all kinds of weapons and banana hammocks and chainsaws strapped to bottles strapped to teddy bears strapped to dildos, and then mechs and wings and flamethrowers strapped to rotating guns! So fun, so quirky!


Dead Rising has become the Geico ads of videogames.

Scratch that -- the Adam Sandler Netflix movies of videogames.
 

RPGam3r

Member
So don't do the cases, don't save survivors. BOOM, there is your 3 day sandbox mode. Why do they have to remove the timer for you when the timer works just fine as it was. Even Crowb mentions this in the last bit of the fucking video: Do whatever the hell you want while the timer ticks down. You kill Brad or forget the Cases? No big deal, you get a sandbox mode for the next 6 hours. If you don't want that, reload your save.

DR3 (and by proxy 2: Off the Record) just showed how boring the sandbox is when you don't have the timer to move things forward.

I don't like skipping content to buy time, why do you think people like me don't like the timer? It's not bc it is simply counting down, it's bc it inhibits exploration.

The timer doesn't work just fine for everyone, and they're not removing it for me, they're removing it bc they think it doesn't belong any longer. I just happen to like their decision.

If you think the games are boring simply bc an arbitrary timer wasn't nudging you forward, than maybe these games aren't for you any longer?
 
I like the new direction outlined by Dead Rising 4, and by and large I dislike Crowbcat's cats videos. I think they feed the hyperbolic melodrama that ends up wasting so much of our time on Neogaf.

I feel that while many of his videos exist for the sake of entertainment, intended merely as a bit of fun, placing intentional overemphasis on certain flaws in a video game, or certain sides of an argument, exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness for comic effect. Yet people on Neogaf, and other communities unfortunately take this a little more seriously than its intended, and use these videos to fuel their campaigns against certain games or ideas, or merely to validate their knee jerk opinions.

Despite the sense that Crowbcat himself intends most of his videos to be taken less seriously than they are, I don't think he expresses much awareness of the consequences of these videos, and it's not always clear what his videos are trying to say. For instance I almost feel like the Minecraft videos are intended to make fun of a certain group of people, but his intentions with those aren't made explicit.

Game design by focus group and headed by people that never produced a Dead Rising game...sad.

Even small independent studios often use 3rd party companies to help analyse and effectively contribute to their games design by conducting focus groups and whatnot. Collecting and analysing data isn't a negative thing, it's understanding the data you have and how you apply it to the games design that can be negative. Despite this, I think you would be thankful for the number of beneficial additions focus group and user experience testing have brought to many games that we play both from triple A studios, and smaller, independent companies.
 
Why? Things can change

Take stealth out of Metal Gear Solid and what you're left with isn't Metal Gear Solid.
Make the next Elder Scrolls a linear corridor FPS and it won't be an Elder Scrolls game.

Same applies to Dead Rising. They've stripped away or watered down nearly everything that made Dead Rising unique. Now it's just a generic open-world zombie game.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I don't like skipping content to buy time, why do you think people like me don't like the timer? It's not bc it is simply counting down, it's bc it inhibits exploration.

So here's what you do:

Playthrough 1: Save the survivors! YAY! You did that.
Playthrough 2: Explore the mall! Yay! You did that.
Playthrough 3: Do the cases because you'll be overpowered as hell. Even by this point, you can then save all the survivors.

People were able to do Saint AND the cases AND do Overtime once leveled to 50. Why couldn't you? That's literally all the "content" in the game for you right there. What you're asking is like asking Game Freak (or whoever is in charge now) of Pokemon to remove all the ... what is it now... 757? Pokemon and only having Pikachu there to catch and explore with. Yay! You complete the game and got all the content!
 

Cleve

Member
I haven't seen this much angst about DR since, well, the last one was shown.

That turned out okay to me, so I'm happy to see how this turns out before I freak out.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
Man, this video demonstrates how in the modern age, it has never been easier to see how a development studio can have such a huge disconnect from what made a series great.

Still hoping the "It was all a film" plot line turns out to be real and this Frank is just an actor.

Only way to salvage this!
 
While I never got into the original DR, largely because of the timer, I always considered it a huge part of that game's charm, even though it turns a lot of people off. I liken it to the permadeath in a roguelike, or the "you die you lose all your progress (souls)" system of the Dark Souls series, which 10 years ago would probably have been considered too "hardcore" for the casual audience, yet From stuck with it, refined it, and turned Souls/Borne into a fairly mainstream series. I wonder if the same could have been done with DR instead of just ditching the system entirely. There's a million games nowadays where you kill zombies by the hundreds, at least, for good or bad, you could have given it something to stand out.
 

RPGam3r

Member
So here's what you do:

Playthrough 1: Save the survivors! YAY! You did that.
Playthrough 2: Explore the mall! Yay! You did that.
Playthrough 3: Do the cases because you'll be overpowered as hell. Even by this point, you can then save all the survivors.

People were able to do Saint AND the cases AND do Overtime once leveled to 50. Why couldn't you?

Why are you leaping to massive conclusions about how I played the past entries of this series just bc I'm saying I don't like a aspect of the design that they are deciding to get rid of?

I love Persona despite hating the calendar system (notice a theme?), are you going to lay into me on how to play those too?
 

zokie

Gold Member
honestly i do not like the "time" system as i really wanted to save people from the zombie outbreak , but i do not mind the humour of "saving" in toliets
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I love Persona despite hating the calendar system (notice a theme?), are you going to lay into me on how to play those too?

Sure.

Playthrough 1: Play however the fuck you want while the timer continues.
Playthrough 2: Do the S-link maxing run that nearly everyone and their mother does since they know what days and options are available.

SURPRISE! The timers actually make you decide on what you want to do. Don't like it? Tough shit. They're there to spur you forward and have consequences for your actions.

Also Persona is a horrible example to compare with Dead Rising because that timer isn't ticking down. You want to explore the city on 5/30? You can do that. The only thing that moves you forward is certain actions. Same with the dungeons. Dead Rising has the timer continuously tick down once you are back in the safe room from the opening. Your choices don't matter in that.
 
I only bothered with half the video, but CrowbCat didn't make any especially strong arguments in it. The developers are actually giving reasonable arguments, like there's no timer now because there's so much optional side content, which doesn't inherently mean it's going to suddenly be a bad Dead Rising game. Sequels change things all of the time, and often major changes are well received by fans.

A video like this would make more sense after people have actually played the thing.
 

SkyOdin

Member
Why are you leaping to massive conclusions about how I played the past entries of this series just bc I'm saying I don't like a aspect of the design that they are deciding to get rid of?

I love Persona despite hating the calendar system (notice a theme?), are you going to lay into me on how to play those too?
Persona 3 and 4 are built around the calender system though. That time management is the core of the experience. You might be consistant in your preferences, but that doesn't make me inclined to agree with them. I'm consistant in my preferences too: I love the original Dead Rising, Persona's calender system, Harvest Moon games, and Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter. If you had your way, many of my favorite game experiences of all time wouldn't exist.
 
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