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[Huggers]

The thread title says it all. I'm looking for an old school telly (4:3, CRT) for my old consoles. What are some good options? I'm considering a Bang & Olufsen or perhaps a Trinitron but is there a particularly good choice for games? I want excellent picture and sound quality. Thanks in advance for any replies

 

[Lambtron]

A Sony PVM/BVM or similar. You're not going to get great sound out of it (it's mono, buy some external speakers), but the picture is wonderful.

 

[sixteen-bit]

NEC XM29

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

The 27" Sharp TV that weighs 500 lbs. I keep in my spare room seems to do the job.

 

[Huggers]

NEC XM29

Just watched a review of one on youtube by a gamer. Looks incredible. Not available in the UK it seems though sadly

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Relevant thread.

But here's a brief checklist of what to look for in a consumer set:

- At least one each of all the relevant inputs, depending on where you live: composite, s-video, component (if US), SCART (if Europe)

- Standard definition (480i/576i). 480p sets are somewhat desirable if PS2 is a major concern of yours (PS2 probably has the most even split of 480i and 480p games of any mainstream console). I'd avoid HD CRTs.

- Good working condition. Test out any set before you buy. Look for bad geometry (wavy or distorted image when it should be straight), bad colors, bad overscan, etc. See if you can correct any potential issues by messing around with the service menu, which you'd have to Google to learn how to access for each specific model. If you want some examples of problems to look for and an easy way to test for them, look up the info on the "240p Test Suite" posted in the thread linked above.

If you really want to go all out, you can seek out professional studio monitors as suggested above.

 

[Yes Boss!]

One of those flatscreen 27" Sony Wegas. Off the shelf connections so you don't have to worry about all the extra cables. Be sure to get one with component-in and one that can squeeze to 16:9 so you are set up good for the late retro sytems like PS2, Gamecube, Wii.

 

[Huggers]

Relevant thread.

But here's a brief checklist of what to look for in a consumer set:

- At least one each of all the relevant inputs, depending on where you live: composite, s-video, component (if US), SCART (if Europe)

- Standard definition (480i/576i). 480p sets are somewhat desirable if PS2 is a major concern of yours (PS2 probably has the most even split of 480i and 480p games of any mainstream console). I'd avoid HD CRTs.

- Good working condition. Test out any set before you buy. Look for bad geometry (wavy or distorted image when it should be straight), bad colors, bad overscan, etc. See if you can correct any potential issues by messing around with the service menu, which you'd have to Google to learn how to access for each specific model. If you want some examples of problems to look for and an easy way to test for them, look up the info on the "240p Test Suite" posted in the thread linked above.

If you really want to go all out, you can seek out professional studio monitors as suggested above.

Super helpful thread/post, thanks

 

[HappehLemons]

Go with the Trinitron. I regularly play retro games and have went thru tons of CRT tvs. They have never broke and always had great pictures. Do not get an HD CRT though, they don't look good for anything under 480p.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Go for an HD CRT - one capable of 480p and 1080i. Progressive Scan PS2, Gamecube and Wii games look SOOO much better on an HD CRT than on a flat screen, and 1080i will allow you to play certain original XBox games (720p would be better, but there were only a couple of consumer CRT's that did 720p). Plus true HDTV's were designed to look as great as possible since they were high end, so even for lesser systems you'll have better color and contrast. Also then you are guaranteed to have support for component on the TV, so you'll be set for the best quality color even for non-480p systems.

Do not get an HD CRT though, they don't look good for anything under 480p.

TOTALLY disagree, I had an HD CRT, my SNES, NES and even Atari games looked great. Maybe you are thinking of fixed-pixel displays, like modern LCDs or older DLP or Plasmas, yes on those any resolution other than the TV's native resolution could look like utter crap. But a CRT is able to change its native resolution based on the source, so game consoles displaying less than 480p, will still be showing at less than 480p on a CRT, regardless if the CRT is capable of showing 480p or 1080i or not.

 

[MrBenchmark]

If you in the us check goodwill stores I got a really nice 21 inch Trinitron for .49 cents. They always have TVs between .49 to .99 tops

 

[pete_clarf]

One of those flatscreen 27" Sony Wegas. Off the shelf connections so you don't have to worry about all the extra cables. Be sure to get one with component-in and one that can squeeze to 16:9 so you are set up good for the late retro sytems like PS2, Gamecube, Wii.

I second this!

 

[YuriLowell]

I have the 34" Flatscreen Wega.

Its great.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Go with the Trinitron. I regularly play retro games and have went thru tons of CRT tvs. They have never broke and always had great pictures. Do not get an HD CRT though, they don't look good for anything under 480p.

I used to rummage through a local thrift shop at my old residence in the hopes of finding a Trinitron in good condition, but I never came back satisfied. They always had somewhat blurry or distorted pictures and didn't come remotely close to the VGA monitor that I'm currently using for my retro setup.

Sony Trinitrons are great, but I think it's more important to just test thoroughly for defects than to shop for specific brands at this point. These things are old as dirt now and you need to make sure that everything's in working order. (Which reminds me: Thoroughly test all of the inputs on any used TV to make sure that they all actually work. Those RCA style jacks on a lot of sets can be loosened and eventually dislodged from regular use.)

TOTALLY disagree, I had an HD CRT, my SNES, NES and even Atari games looked great.

Scanlines can look weird and wrong on HD CRTs, and there are concerns that some of them actually do have problematic post-processing that you can't disable. This actually came up as an issue at the first fighting game tournament I attended (Seasons Beatings V, fall 2010). The organizers used an HD CRT for the main stage under the assumption that it would be the best option because CRTs don't lag, only to find out once everything was under way that that particular set actually did lag for some reason. Even though there theoretically shouldn't have been any scaling lag, something else with the set was causing problems.

Not saying that this would be a problem with every HD CRT, but it would make sense that older SD sets (that definitely don't have any post-processing at all) wouldn't even have a chance of causing the same issues.

 

[inner-G]

I have a 27" Trinitron WEGA flat tube that I swear by for SD games (kv-27 fs100). Tons of inputs, s-video and composite inputs and speakers that are as good as some modern sound bars imo.

Trinitons have a service menu that let's you fine-tune the geometry too.

 

[Dr. Black Jack]

Go for an HD CRT - one capable of 480p and 1080i. Progressive Scan PS2, Gamecube and Wii games look SOOO much better on an HD CRT than on a flat screen, and 1080i will allow you to play certain original XBox games (720p would be better, but there were only a couple of consumer CRT's that did 720p). Plus true HDTV's were designed to look as great as possible since they were high end, so even for lesser systems you'll have better color and contrast. Also then you are guaranteed to have support for component on the TV, so you'll be set for the best quality color even for non-480p systems.


TOTALLY disagree, I had an HD CRT, my SNES, NES and even Atari games looked great. Maybe you are thinking of fixed-pixel displays, like modern LCDs or older DLP or Plasmas, yes on those any resolution other than the TV's native resolution could look like utter crap. But a CRT is able to change its native resolution based on the source, so game consoles displaying less than 480p, will still be showing at less than 480p on a CRT, regardless if the CRT is capable of showing 480p or 1080i or not.

That's not correct in the least, especially for 16:9 HD CRTs. Retro systems look like ass on my Sony 34XBR960 because the TV just duplicates scanlines to fill in the extra resolution, making games look blurry/chunky. Plus the HD capable CRTs refresh at a higher rate (100hz IIRC), making lightgun games incompatible.

OP, if you're looking for the best picture quality period, get a PVM/BVM monitor. If you want a bigger screen size or don't want to shell out for cables and whatnot, get a non-HD Sony Trinitron with s-video. You can get them cheap/free from online classifieds; just be sure you have the means to transport it back home.

 

[HappehLemons]

Go for an HD CRT - one capable of 480p and 1080i. Progressive Scan PS2, Gamecube and Wii games look SOOO much better on an HD CRT than on a flat screen, and 1080i will allow you to play certain original XBox games (720p would be better, but there were only a couple of consumer CRT's that did 720p). Plus true HDTV's were designed to look as great as possible since they were high end, so even for lesser systems you'll have better color and contrast. Also then you are guaranteed to have support for component on the TV, so you'll be set for the best quality color even for non-480p systems.


TOTALLY disagree, I had an HD CRT, my SNES, NES and even Atari games looked great. Maybe you are thinking of fixed-pixel displays, like modern LCDs or older DLP or Plasmas, yes on those any resolution other than the TV's native resolution could look like utter crap. But a CRT is able to change its native resolution based on the source, so game consoles displaying less than 480p, will still be showing at less than 480p on a CRT, regardless if the CRT is capable of showing 480p or 1080i or not.

I really stand by not getting a HD CRT for classic games. Maybe some people like the look of HD CRTs but if you're looking to get that retro classic look a HD CRT will not provide that. The one thing that sets them back is that HD CRTs no not have scanlines. Some people do like the look of retro content without them, but it's not "authentic"

Although this is negotiable for most oldschool gaming, this becomes a big problem when you start moving into N64/PSX content. I have used HD CRTs for low resolution 3d content and it looks terrible. It's important to keep in mind that this oldschool content was made with scanlines in mind, so games were artistically created around them.

Without scanlines

(This is a little exaggerated, but with the blurring a scanlines this is what the image will look close to, and what the developers intended)

I used to rummage through a local thrift shop at my old residence in the hopes of finding a Trinitron in good condition, but I never came back satisfied. They always had somewhat blurry or distorted pictures and didn't come remotely close to the VGA monitor that I'm currently using for my retro setup.

Sony Trinitrons are great, but I think it's more important to just test thoroughly for defects than to shop for specific brands at this point. These things are old as dirt now and you need to make sure that everything's in working order. (Which reminds me: Thoroughly test all of the inputs on any used TV to make sure that they all actually work. Those RCA style jacks on a lot of sets can be loosened and eventually dislodged from regular use.)

A lot of Trinitrons have been abused over the years. You're right when you say it might be hard to find a perfect one (I've found my fair share of duds) but every working one I've brought home I've never had an issue with! Still using one a got over 5 years ago and craigslist today.

 

[Dreamwriter]

That's not correct in the least, especially for 16:9 HD CRTs. Retro systems look like ass on my Sony 34XBR960 because the TV just duplicates scanlines to fill in the extra resolution, making games look blurry/chunky. Plus the HD capable CRTs refresh at a higher rate (100hz IIRC), making lightgun games incompatible..

Has nothing to do with being an HDTV, and everything to do with one feature on your specific TV. And CRT's only refresh at a higher rate if the source video is doing so - CRT's are not like modern flat panels, they don't have a standard refresh, just like they don't have a standard resolution. The source device basically tells the TV's scanline exactly what to do - how fast to scan across the screen, how often to change colors, how long to wait before moving down to the next line, etc. Your specific TV intercepts that signal on SD sources and tries to figure out how it should look, and tries to upscale it - but you should be able to disable that.

Digital Reality Creation MultiFunction V1 Circuitry raises standard definition signals to HD quality via a digital bit mapping process, which is user adjustable

 

[Dreamwriter]

I really stand by not getting a HD CRT for classic games. Maybe some people like the look of HD CRTs but if you're looking to get that retro classic look a HD CRT will not provide that. The one thing that sets them back is that HD CRTs no not have scanlines. Some people do like the look of retro content without them, but it's not "authentic"

That really sounds like you are talking about LCD, DLP or Plasma, because HD CRT's have scanlines, they *have* to or they wouldn't function, it's how a CRT works. My old 36" Panasonic HDTV definitely had scanlines (and weighed 300 pounds, the downside to HD CRTs...)

 

[nictron]

 

[Tain]

I really stand by not getting a HD CRT for classic games.

Amen.

That really sounds like you are talking about LCD, DLP or Plasma, because HD CRT's have scanlines, they *have* to or they wouldn't function, it's how a CRT works. My old 36" Panasonic HDTV definitely had scanlines (and weighed 300 pounds, the downside to HD CRTs...)

They do, but all of the HD CRTs I've seen won't display a 240p signal at its native resolution anyway. I've never seen an HD CRT treat a low resolution signal without processing, leading to an image that is not at all similar to an SDTV's.

 

[HappehLemons]

That really sounds like you are talking about LCD, DLP or Plasma, because HD CRT's have scanlines, they *have* to or they wouldn't function, it's how a CRT works. My old 36" Panasonic HDTV definitely had scanlines (and weighed 300 pounds, the downside to HD CRTs...)

I'm not sure you're right on this one. It's been discussed here before and I had a HD CRT that had no visible scanlines on it (I might be able to get a picture). VGA monitors use the same technology and they don't have visible scanlines either.

 

[Dreamwriter]

They do, but all of the HD CRTs I've seen won't display a 240p signal at its native resolution anyway. I've never seen an HD CRT treat a low resolution signal without processing, leading to an image that is not at all similar to an SDTV's.

They function exactly the same. When it comes to a CRT, HD signals are drawn the exact same way SD signals are drawn. The scanning frequency is higher, that's the only difference. Maybe everyone had TV's like Dr. Black Jack, that had built-in upconverting circuits, and didn't know how to disable it in the TV menus?

 

[Peltz]

I really stand by not getting a HD CRT for classic games. Maybe some people like the look of HD CRTs but if you're looking to get that retro classic look a HD CRT will not provide that. The one thing that sets them back is that HD CRTs no not have scanlines. Some people do like the look of retro content without them, but it's not "authentic"

Although this is negotiable for most oldschool gaming, this becomes a big problem when you start moving into N64/PSX content. I have used HD CRTs for low resolution 3d content and it looks terrible. It's important to keep in mind that this oldschool content was made with scanlines in mind, so games were artistically created around them.

Without scanlines

(This is a little exaggerated, but with the blurring a scanlines this is what the image will look close to, and what the developers intended)

A lot of Trinitrons have been abused over the year. You're right when you say it might be hard to find a perfect one (I've found my fair share of duds) but every working one I've brought home I've never had an issue with! Still using one a got over 5 years ago and craigslist today.

Every time these pictures are posted I'll be there watching and waiting to mention my disdain for them. I really hate both of those pictures.... The bottom one looks just as wrong as the top one. It's missing....

...scannnnlines.




Basically, at this point in the game, I'd only go for the RGB Studio monitors by searching craigslist and forget anything consumer focused. Many people, myself included, have scored some high quality RGB-capable sets for under $100. I wouldn't go for anything else unless you live in a rural area where such things are difficult to come by. And now is really the time to grab one because most production companies are dumping them these days and pretty soon they'll all be in the hands of gamers.

Definitely test out everything before buying and try to get local pickup because you don't really want to have a CRT delivered to you in this day and age - it's likely to get damaged.

Here's also a great link about one of the best retro-gaming CRTs.

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/456719-best-crt-retro-games/

Also, the linked thread Sixfortyfive's post is like the NeoGAF holy grail on this topic. He wrote most of the OP of that thread and since discovering it, my appreciation for my own collection has been irreparably enhanced.

Spoiler

I'm even willing to overlook his opinion that scanlines aren't the motherfuckin bees' knees for 240p gaming.

Truth be told, without that thread, I probably wouldn't even be here at NeoGAF.

And finally, check out the scanline screenshots thread. Many people there have amazing monitors and it will give you a better idea of what is possible on a classic CRT. Bancho's posts in particular are eye-opening as hell and a joy to just stare at. He has a few great CRT monitors and knows how to photograph them as you can see:

More images:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=921436

Seeing the real thing in person is even more glorious, I'm sure. But his monitors support a great argument for going with a studio RGB monitor rather than bother with any consumer grade stuff at this point.

Just my two cents though. None of it's gospel and any CRT you find which makes you happy is the "right" CRT.

 

[Dreamwriter]

I'm not sure you're right on this one. It's been discussed here before and I had a HD CRT that had no visible scanlines on it (I might be able to get a picture). VGA monitors use the same technology and they don't have visible scanlines either.

That thread has a lot of people recommending HD CRT displays. One even posted a screenshot showing scanlines:

"This is how 240p appears on HD-CRT Sony flat 16:9 BVM's":

 

[HappehLemons]

They function exactly the same. When it comes to a CRT, HD signals are drawn the exact same way SD signals are drawn. The scanning frequency is higher, that's the only difference. Maybe everyone had TV's like Dr. Black Jack, that had built-in upconverting circuits, and didn't know how to disable it in the TV menus?

I'm only speaking from personal experience. Whenever I have used a HD CRT I have never seen scan-lines on any of those displays.

When I google "HD CRT" and "Scanlines" almost every other result is sources saying there are not scanlines (Or at least visible scanlines) on HD CRTs.

Here are just a couple unofficial sources from the the first page of results from retro gaming forums. This really seems to be the general consensus/

An HD CRT is most likely not going to have scanlines. For one, the resolution is much higher - any scanline gap would be very tiny (if you see any at all). Second, even though it's a CRT - it's still a frame capture device like the LCD. It's not like an old SDTV where the analog signal is pretty much going straight to the screen. The HD CRT will most likely do one of two things; treat the signal of 240p as 480i and interpolate that to 480p (no scanlines), or correctly recognize the 240p and simple scanline double the output as 480p (no interpolation, block pixels like raw emulation without filters). A device that had a digital or analog knob to control the brightness of the duplicated/doubled scanlines would be great. Or at minimum a preset of 100%/75%/50%/25%/00% settings. Personally, pure black scanlines doesn't look natural to me. Usually 25% or so brightness looks good. Does the SLG3000 have any features like this?

Dithering and aliasing is going to be a lot more visible on that set than it would be on an SDTV. Also, light guns will not work. Also, as I understand it HD CRTs don't have any scanlines.

Other than the SDTV having scanlines, what other differences are there be between a SD CRT and HD CRT

 

[Peltz]

That thread has a lot of people recommending HD CRT displays. One even posted a screenshot showing scanlines:

"This is how 240p appears on HD-CRT Sony flat 16:9 BVM's":

My parents had an enourmous 1080i HD CRT that did scanlines that they acquired way back in the late 90s. The lines were so huge and black that I had no idea what I was even seeing because I never saw scanlines like that before.

Too bad my parents never let me use it for gaming because they were scared I would "break it" ... and it died last year :*(

I tried to talk them into repairing it but they got a stupid LCD screen instead. </3

Not sneaking in more gaming sessions on that thing or persuading them to let me use it for gaming is one of my biggest gaming regrets. Damn thing is gone now anyway and all I have to show for it is the smug satisfaction that I didn't break it when I was a kid (not really worth anything).

EDIT: despite my story, yes I agree with the others. Stay away from HD CRTs. Go with an RGB Monitor. Again, as I mentioned above, I remember the scanlines looking very weird so something might have been wrong with the image and there may have been some artifacts. It probably wouldn't have been a good retro-gaming setup but I didn't spend enough time with it to confirm either way.

 

[Ziffles]

Scanlines can look weird and wrong on HD CRTs, and there are concerns that some of them actually do have problematic post-processing that you can't disable. This actually came up as an issue at the first fighting game tournament I attended (Seasons Beatings V, fall 2010). The organizers used an HD CRT for the main stage under the assumption that it would be the best option because CRTs don't lag, only to find out once everything was under way that that particular set actually did lag for some reason. Even though there theoretically shouldn't have been any scaling lag, something else with the set was causing problems.

Not saying that this would be a problem with every HD CRT, but it would make sense that older SD sets (that definitely don't have any post-processing at all) wouldn't even have a chance of causing the same issues.

I had a Sony XBR970 34" HDCRT that, while fine for most things, would have graphics tearing on 240p signals from my Super NES.

Yep that's right, I said graphics tearing, and it wasn't from the SNES.

 

[Tain]

They function exactly the same. When it comes to a CRT, HD signals are drawn the exact same way SD signals are drawn. The scanning frequency is higher, that's the only difference. Maybe everyone had TV's like Dr. Black Jack, that had built-in upconverting circuits, and didn't know how to disable it in the TV menus?

On the ones I've used (mostly Toshiba), there was no way to get a native-resolution image. If you pull up the TV menu over a low-res signal, nothing changes. You see a 1080i menu on top of what is supposed to be a 240p image. The signal is being upscaled in one form or another.

 

[HappehLemons]

That thread has a lot of people recommending HD CRT displays. One even posted a screenshot showing scanlines:

"This is how 240p appears on HD-CRT Sony flat 16:9 BVM's":

From what I understand about sony BVMs is that they are not the same as a consumer grade HD CRTs. Those are complex smaller professional studio monitors that allow to user to fine tune almost every aspect of them in a way that normal TVs do not. If the OP expects to buy a HD CRT and have a picture that looks like that I can assure you it wont look anything like that.

Here is a screenshot from the same thread with a user playing battletoads in 480p on a HD CRT, with no visible scanlines. (This is what content would always look like on my HD-CRT when I tried playing retro systems

Overall my point is that you get a different image out of a HD-CRT in my experience (Any many other people on other retro gaming forums) HD-CRTs do not produce the visible scan-lines that a SDCRT does.

 

[baphomet]

Stay away from HD CRTs like most everyone has said. Get a Sony PVM/BVM if you can find one locally. If not get a Trinitron with component inputs.

 

[Huggers]

So these Sony PVMs/BVMs etc. How does input work. All my consoles are currently scart. What do I need to convert this? I'm looking at this one;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-PVM-...140122125356&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=221602874097&rt=nc

 

[loaf of bread]

Sony Trinitron, the GOAT. They may not be anymore but Sony was king when it came to CRT Tvs.

 

[HappehLemons]

So these Sony PVMs/BVMs etc. How does input work. All my consoles are currently scart. What do I need to convert this? I'm looking at this one;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sony-PVM-...140122125356&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=221602874097&rt=nc

If you're going to go with PVM/BVMs you'll need SCART-to-BNC cables I believe. You might just want to stick with normal consumer grade Trinitrons with Component/Scart input unless you're ready for a bit of a learning curve.

 

[Peltz]

If you're going to go with PVM/BVMs you'll need SCART-to-BNC cables I believe. You might just want to stick with normal consumer grade Trinitrons with Component/Scart input unless you're ready for a bit of a learning curve.

Learning curve?

Buy a scart cable for console + buy a scart to bnc adaptor cable = end of learning.

There's no leaning involved.

 

[HappehLemons]

Learning curve?

Buy a scart cable for console + buy a scart to bnc adaptor cable = end of learning.

There's no leaning involved.

Isn't there a bit a manually calibration that has to go these before getting them to display correctly?

Edit: Just to be clear I've never owned a PVM/BVM monitor so I don't know everything about them. Actually I've got a question about them, do they only accept RGB or will the also accept composite/s-video inputs? If they do how does the picture look on them without RGB?

 

[Huggers]

Learning curve?

Buy a scart cable for console + buy a scart to bnc adaptor cable = end of learning.

There's no leaning involved.

Thanks. Managed to find a site dedicated to retro gaming cables and they have just the thing

 

[Kilau]

I thought it would be the open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.

 

[Peltz]

Thanks. Managed to find a site dedicated to retro gaming cables and they have just the thing

FYI, this seller is generally known as the best for RGB cables for consoles:

http://www.ebay.com/usr/retro_console_accessories

Her items for sale have been temporarily removed, but apparently she does this when away for vacation.