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[Krejlooc]

To expand upon my post about the setting, the first panzer dragoon basically sets up the world, describing the situation and universe the game is set up in, along with a reoccurring mystery that happens every several decades, but makes no attempt to explain anything.

Panzer Dragoon Zwei is actually a prequel to Panzer Dragoon, taking place hundreds of years in the past, and explains how the dragon itself came to be and how it operates. But it doesn't explain why anything happens, or even what happened.

Panzer Dragoon Saga takes place hundreds of years after Panzer Dragoon, and being an RPG, it fully fleshes out everything, explaining what exactly has gone on and why it happens, along with wrapping up the story and all plot ends.

 

[Krejlooc]

Definitely start with Panzer Dragoon Orta for the original Xbox. That is playable on the 360 and you can even unlock the first game. If you want to play the other two, Panzer Dragoon Zwei is the next logical choice. PD Saga is the last one and if you have $400-500 to spare, you can buy it. It's only available on Saturn and there were very limited quantities since it came out very late in the Saturn's life.

Playing Orta first would essentially ruin the story of the original trilogy, especially if you dive into Pandora's box.

 

[Mdk7]

You just reminded me i bought Saga last year and i STILL have to play it for the first time (mainly due to the fact i don't have a proper monitor to play it on).

 

[Krejlooc]

You just reminded me i bought Saga last year and i STILL have to play it for the first time (mainly due to the fact i don't have a proper monitor to play it on).

I say play it on a CRT television if at all possible. The game is chock full of special effects that don't work on modern displays or when run at a high resolution. Thats what makes the game look so distinctive when running on native hardware - you get all sorts of bizarre effects you don't see elsewhere. There are moments when the game uses full screen white dithering patterns to produce a transparent rainbow banding effect over the field (during a magic called rainbow, in fact), or will fake transparency or luminosity effects in a variety of ways. If you play this game with pixel perfect clarity, a lot of these effects look weird and incorrect. I very much enjoyed playing the game on a CRT televsion.

The most classic example of what I'm talking about:

vs

I know someone else mentioned using a framemeister and presumably RGB Scart output, but I just really never agree with that. Games like these were designed explicitly to exploit the inaccuracies of an NTSC CRT television. I know it's a preference thing, but sharp, clear pixels is not always the best choice, imo. The Genesis and Saturn very heavily rely on CRT television tricks. If you are dying for an attractive way to play those types of games on a modern television, emulation is honestly the way to go. A 1-pixel blur for Genesis emulation will make some of the CRT effects I described appear (although the rainbow banding doesn't occur) and SSF has an option to turn faked transparency into true transparency within the emulator (one of the few image enhancement quirks about it - the Saturn had calls to automatically dither sprites to fake transparency, and SSF can intercept them and render them as truly transparent).

You can play actual genesis carts in an emulator using a Retrode, and you can just pop your saturn discs into any PC disc drive.

 

[SpotAnime]

Saga is the best, but OP I understand your situation. $400 to try a game is pretty steep for most folks (although, let's be honest, this game is worth $400 for the experience, let alone the bragging rights of owning a copy).

For everyone else, go for Zwei, then Orta.

 

[JonathanNemo]

Playing Orta first would essentially ruin the story of the original trilogy, especially if you dive into Pandora's box.

Having played Orta first, I disagree a bit. The mysteries of Saga are mostly left intact unless you do some serious Wikipedia diving.

Or, yes, look at the encyclopedia entries in Pandora's Box. Similar ends.

In a perfect world, the Saturn trilogy would be an affordable, downloadable collection on GoG with Chocolate Doom like 3D; big and chunky pixels, no hires blurry stuff. But we do not live in perfect, and for that there is Walgreen's. And reasonably priced preowned copies of Orta. And Japanese PD Zwei.

Actually Japanese PD Zwei might be the best, affordable intro to the Saturn games. PD1 does feel dated compared to Starfox 64 and later 3D shooters of that generation.

 

[Krejlooc]

Having played Orta first, I disagree a bit. The mysteries of Saga are mostly left intact unless you do some serious Wikipedia diving.

Or, yes, look at the encyclopedia entries in Pandora's Box. Similar ends.

In a perfect world, the Saturn trilogy would be an affordable, downloadable collection on GoG with Chocolate Doom like 3D; big and chunky pixels, no hires blurry stuff. But we do not live in perfect, and for that there is Walgreen's. And reasonably priced preowned copies of Orta. And Japanese PD Zwei.

Actually Japanese PD Zwei might be the best, affordable intro to the Saturn games. PD1 does feel dated compared to Starfox 64 and later 3D shooters of that generation.

You really only need Saga in english, because Zwei only has very little text (all narration) and the animation alone explains what's going on (well, to the degree that anything is explained in that game).

It's weird that the US version of Zwei has gone up in price. That used to routinely be one of the most common and affordable saturn games.

PD1 does indeed feel dated compared to Star Fox 64 (where I'm of the opinion that both Zwei and Orta are better than it), but that's because Panzer Dragoon 1 is pretty ancient. It was one of the original Sega Saturn tech demos, back when it was called Dragon. It's more fair to actually compare it to Star Fox on the SNES, as it's development was closer to that than Star Fox 64.

I'm a huge fan of this genre, however, and really love just about everything in it, so I still like Panzer Dragoon (and Star Fox on the SNES) very much. I would say if someone can get into the SNES version of Star Fox, they'd likely find some fun in Panzer Dragoon. It has a brutal difficulty so it definitely lasts a while.

 

[Krejlooc]

If you really want to go all out with Panzer Dragoon Zwei, it's the only game on the entire system that supports dual analog control. It's actually a hidden and unadvertised feature. You need to own two Sega Saturn flight sticks and combine them into one unit in order to unlock it.

The Sega Saturn flight stick was modular, with a base that housed the 6 action buttons. On either side of this base was a connector that you could slot the actual analog stick into. So if you had two flight sticks, you could plug analog sticks into both sides. This created something that looked like the Virtua On sticks, but were true analog.

One stick controls your dragon, and the other controls your aiming target. This lets you independently control your aim from your dragon and you can supposedly rack up enormous scores doing this. It's a bit much for me and I usually prefer to play with one stick, but it's really neat to try every now and then. It certainly has that "arcade at home" feel that the Saturn has.

 

[G0523]

Playing Orta first would essentially ruin the story of the original trilogy, especially if you dive into Pandora's box.

Right, but it is the cheapest and easiest of them all to purchase.

 

[Krejlooc]

Right, but it is the cheapest and easiest of them all to purchase.

The JPN version of Panzer Dragoon Zwei is going for virtually the same price on ebay right now.

 

[gelf]

If you really want to go all out with Panzer Dragoon Zwei, it's the only game on the entire system that supports dual analog control. It's actually a hidden and unadvertised feature. You need to own two Sega Saturn flight sticks and combine them into one unit in order to unlock it.

The Sega Saturn flight stick was modular, with a base that housed the 6 action buttons. On either side of this base was a connector that you could slot the actual analog stick into. So if you had two flight sticks, you could plug analog sticks into both sides. This created something that looked like the Virtua On sticks, but were true analog.

One stick controls your dragon, and the other controls your aiming target. This lets you independently control your aim from your dragon and you can supposedly rack up enormous scores doing this. It's a bit much for me and I usually prefer to play with one stick, but it's really neat to try every now and then. It certainly has that "arcade at home" feel that the Saturn has.

Wow I wasn't aware of this, Zwei was crazy in the features it supported for the time. I wonder if you could recreate this on a standard modern gamepad using an emulator. I'd probably prefer the default controls anyway but it would be cool to try.

 

[Krejlooc]

Wow I wasn't aware of this, Zwei was crazy in the features it supported for the time. I wonder if you could recreate this on a standard modern gamepad using an emulator. I'd probably prefer the default controls anyway but it would be cool to try.

Zwei would also instantly unlock pandora's box if it detected a save from Panzer Dragoon or Panzer Dragoon Saga on the Saturn.

Very smart uses of the system's capabilities.

I don't think any of the saturn emulators emulate the analog controllers for the Saturn, but I could be wrong. It's a shame, though, because there is actually quite a few saturn games with analog controls.

 

[VARIA]

Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2 are fun. Start there.

Saga is mixed for me (so far), it starts off pretty interesting and has a great atmosphere and unique battle system but the end of the second disc and the beginning of the third are just a slog to get through. You're basically running around a series of underground corridors trying to activate switches that activate stuff (usually just a door or an elevator) in other rooms, it's just mind numbingly boring. I'm going to finish this game but...yeah the pacing has come to a screeching halt in these sections. It's also possibly the ugliest 3D game of 1998 which when paired with shitty gameplay padding makes it seem even more archaic.

 

[Coda]

Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2 are fun. Start there.

Saga is mixed for me (so far), it starts off pretty interesting and has a great atmosphere and unique battle system but the end of the second disc and the beginning of the third are just a slog to get through. You're basically running around a series of underground corridors trying to activate switches that activate stuff (usually just a door or an elevator) in other rooms, it's just mind numbingly boring. I'm going to finish this game but...yeah the pacing has come to a screeching halt in these sections. It's also possibly the ugliest 3D game of 1998 which when paired with shitty gameplay padding makes it seem even more archaic.

I think that's why I generally just prefer Orta over the other games. I can't look at 3D graphics on the Saturn, it's just too ugly for words.

 

[Glowsquid]

I don't think any of the saturn emulators emulate the analog controllers for the Saturn, .

SSF has support for the mission stick and the 3D controller, though it doesn't support the special mode you described in your post. It doesn't support the Virtua On twinstick either.

 

[G0523]

The JPN version of Panzer Dragoon Zwei is going for virtually the same price on ebay right now.

But OP doesn't know Japanese. And, really, Zwei JPN is going for lower than $5-10? I doubt it.

With Orta, if you don't even want to be spoiled, you can leave the game on (on the main menu even) for five hours and the original game will unlock. You can then start the game from there.

 

[Krejlooc]

But OP doesn't know Japanese.

You really only need Saga in english, because Zwei only has very little text (all narration) and the animation alone explains what's going on (well, to the degree that anything is explained in that game).

And, really, Zwei JPN is going for lower than $5-10? I doubt it.

The average price of completed listings on ebay right now for Orta is about $13. There is a copy of Zwei going for $17 right now with free shipping. Zwei is not bank busting.

With Orta, if you don't even want to be spoiled, you can leave the game on (on the main menu even) for five hours and the original game will unlock. You can then start the game from there.

Or he could just play Zwei, like he asked about in the OP.

 

[Glowsquid]

But OP doesn't know Japanese.

Zwei doesn't have much text, though : p. He could watch the NA opening and ending cutscenes on youtube if it really comes down to it

not that I agree with the statement Orta spoils the plot of the series. well, as long as you don't look at pandoras box.

 

[Cynn]

I'm not counting in terms of potential purchases. I can afford it, but I doubt it's worth it's asking price. Besides, that less money for other games!

To a collector, PDS is a good investment. The print run was around 5-7,000 and the source code was lost by Sega so there will never be a digital version. If you are just a player though I'd suggest chipping a Saturn and playing a rip. You have no other option if you want to play and it's worth the effort.

 

[Justinh]

going to shamefully suggest that if you end up liking the series to check out crimson dragon if there's ever a good deal on it D:

I actually liked Crimson Dragon a lot, but it's nothing like the other Panzer Dragoon games that I've played so I wouldn't recommend it to someone looking for Panzer Dragoon. Maybe if it ever goes back on GwG give it a shot. I still hope they get another chance to make another one, though. From what I remember, dude said the sequel would be more like Saga.

From what I remember Orta's unlockable of the first game doesn't work on the 360's back compatibility.

I still really want to snag a copy of Saga. I'll probably get a copy if I can find a good one after I get a new laptop.

If you really want to go all out with Panzer Dragoon Zwei, it's the only game on the entire system that supports dual analog control. It's actually a hidden and unadvertised feature. You need to own two Sega Saturn flight sticks and combine them into one unit in order to unlock it.

http://i.imgur.com/wmKehL2.jpeg

The Sega Saturn flight stick was modular, with a base that housed the 6 action buttons. On either side of this base was a connector that you could slot the actual analog stick into. So if you had two flight sticks, you could plug analog sticks into both sides. This created something that looked like the Virtua On sticks, but were true analog.

One stick controls your dragon, and the other controls your aiming target. This lets you independently control your aim from your dragon and you can supposedly rack up enormous scores doing this. It's a bit much for me and I usually prefer to play with one stick, but it's really neat to try every now and then. It certainly has that "arcade at home" feel that the Saturn has.

Man, I really wanted one of these. I ordered a grey one but it never came, even the replacement that they said they sent. Sigh...
Didn't know you could Frankenstein two together like that.

 

[G0523]

The average price of completed listings on ebay right now for Orta is about $13. There is a copy of Zwei going for $17 right now with free shipping. Zwei is not bank busting.

Oh. I was going off of Amazon prices. My bad. Yeah, the JPN version of Zwei still goes for a bit more on Amazon too. Well, it's up to the OP on which version of Zwei they want. I was just suggesting Orta for the convenience factor.

 

[Krejlooc]

and the source code was lost by Sega so there will never be a digital version

The source code being lost is meaningless. A bunch of SH2 asm source is absolutely useless today, the source code being lost doesn't matter at all. You wouldn't need the source code to get the game running on modern PCs.

in fact, it already does. There is already a digital version of the game. PCs have been able to emulate Saga for a good decade now.

 

[Justinh]

The source code being lost is meaningless. A bunch of SH2 asm source is absolutely useless today, the source code being lost doesn't matter at all. You wouldn't need the source code to get the game running on modern PCs.

in fact, it already does. There is already a digital version of the game. PCs have been able to emulate Saga for a good decade now.

I thought Saturn emulation is still wonky. Am I wrong on that? Can I just put my disc in and run it with an emulator, or would I have to do some ripping using the console or something?

 

[Krejlooc]

I thought Saturn emulation is still wonky. Am I wrong on that? Can I just put my disc in and run it with an emulator, or would I have to do some ripping using the console or something?

it's not wonky, you can pop in a disc and play but you'll need a way to get the bios image on your PC.

 

[Laevateinn]

If you really want to go all out with Panzer Dragoon Zwei, it's the only game on the entire system that supports dual analog control. It's actually a hidden and unadvertised feature. You need to own two Sega Saturn flight sticks and combine them into one unit in order to unlock it.

The Sega Saturn flight stick was modular, with a base that housed the 6 action buttons. On either side of this base was a connector that you could slot the actual analog stick into. So if you had two flight sticks, you could plug analog sticks into both sides. This created something that looked like the Virtua On sticks, but were true analog.

One stick controls your dragon, and the other controls your aiming target. This lets you independently control your aim from your dragon and you can supposedly rack up enormous scores doing this. It's a bit much for me and I usually prefer to play with one stick, but it's really neat to try every now and then. It certainly has that "arcade at home" feel that the Saturn has.

Oh god. Now I need this.

 

[JonathanNemo]

I thought Saturn emulation is still wonky. Am I wrong on that? Can I just put my disc in and run it like that, or would I have to do some rip using the console or something like that?

Yes, Saga is quite playable through emulation.

Probably not GiriGiri, the emulator that Sega purchased long ago for a long-defunct digital download service, but SSF seems to handle it pretty well.

 

[Dizzy-4U]

Give Gamera 2000 a shot sometime if you can.

I'm not joking. It's a great legit Panzer Dragoon.

 

[ApharmdX]

Definitely start with Panzer Dragoon Orta for the original Xbox. That is playable on the 360 and you can even unlock the first game. If you want to play the other two, Panzer Dragoon Zwei is the next logical choice. PD Saga is the last one and if you have $400-500 to spare, you can buy it. It's only available on Saturn and there were very limited quantities since it came out very late in the Saturn's life.

The problem with Orta is the pacing. I loved the game at release. I was a huge Smilebit fan. GUNVALKYRIE is one of the all-time underrated games. JSRF, amazing. Orta is not as good as Zwei. It takes the amazing technical prowess, at the time, of Smilebit on Xbox, and delivers about 50% of what should have been. Zwei is a more relentless, more frantic shooter. This should not be.

Orta does have some amazing moments. Eternal Glacies, the fight against the mother monster, was well-done. I just wish it had been more consistent.

 

[Revas]

I never paid much attention to PDS, but this thread motivated me to watch some youtube videos and I'm playing this game for sure. Are there any hopes for a modern game?

 

[Shion]

The world in Orta feels more... organic? Alive? Which I guess makes sense given the ending to Saga, but I loved the vast barren sun-scorched landscapes of the original trilogy. They seemed so haunting.

Yes, YES.

I like Orta a lot, it's a great shooter with a world that's very beautiful in its own right, but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't disappointed by what felt like a shift in tone. The aesthetics of the original trilogy create a world that feels haunting and melancholic. There's a somberness to it, similar to what we see in Ueda's works, that was kinda lost in Orta.

I guess Futatsugi's departure played its part here, given how the world in Phantom Dust had a similar vibe to that of the original PD trilogy.

The Panzer Dragoon world in Sonic All-stars racing transformed is so good. While my favorite level is the after burner one (that fucking remix of The Final Takeoff), the Panzer Dragoon Level is my second favorite.

I love both, but nothing tops the Burning Rangers level for me

 

[JonathanNemo]

Are there any hopes for a modern game?

Over the last decade and a half, Yukio Futatsugi has expressed interest in a new Panzer Dragoon, in interviews. Futatsugi was the original PD Saturn trilogy writer and the director of PD1 and Saga, directed Phantom Dust and Crimson Dragon, and currently remains as a co-founder of Grounding, Inc. During that time, he has talked about a Panzer Dragoon Saga remake, but every time the subject is brought up the cost is apparently too much of a barrier to make it happen.

One time he mentioned the possibility of remaking Panzer Dragoon Saga as a rail shooter to keep costs down. I don't think that was ever going to happen; one of Sega's former employees used to say that the next Panzer Dragoon after Orta absolutely cannot be a rail shooter.

Most recently, Futatsugi mentioned the possibility of a Crimson Dragon RPG. The barrier to that being sales of Crimson Dragon. Crimson Dragon didn't sell well, so this too seems unlikely.


The Orta team has also been keen to work on a Panzer Dragoon RPG. But that's been over a decade ago.

Takayuki Kawagoe was the GM and producer behind Orta. The last he's said is that they "haven't decided on not making a sequel [to Panzer Dragoon Orta]." He's risen up the ranks at Sega-Sammy so take that for what it's worth.

Akihiko Mukaiyama was the director behind Orta and the very clever battle system behind Saga. He's at Grounding, too, credited with the game design of Crimson Dragon. I haven't heard much from him at all since Orta's release, but I assume he's still working with Futatsugi on future projects.


So the long and short of it? Past a Shenmue 3 style revival, this series is in for a long hibernation, at best.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

No, not really. It doesn't feel like a horror game, it shares a meloncholy atmosphere more like Ico or Ecco the Dolphin, really. And I don't mean the commonly repeated "Ecco the Dolphin is a horror game because the ocean is scary" trope. There isn't a lot going on in the world of Panzer Dragoon. To set up the series, the world basically ended eons ago, and the few surviving humans in the world have lost basically their history. They don't know what happened, only that at one point there was an ancient empire and then a global geological disaster essentially wiped out almost all life, including plants and animals. So the planet is barren and scarred, save for pockets of nomadic humans that live like cavemen and monsters that roam the world (but are treated essentially like livestock).

Really, as the series goes on, it goes more into scifi than horror. But I don't want to spoil anything. But no, the atmosphere is not like Parasite eve, although the battle system is roughly similar. Thats where I make the comparison. The concept of multiple ATB gauges to control your actions, the ability to move and dodge in 3D in real time, a single-party system with a highly customizable weapon instead of party management (your gun in Parasite Eve, your Dragon in Panzer Dragoon Saga). It's not a perfect comparison (Parasite eve places more emphasis on 3D dodging like an action game, where Panzer Dragoon is more about positioning and is rigid) but it's the closest I can come up with.

Sounds uplifiting

Still hoping for an HD remaster some day, even tho the source code is lost. They still have the code off the disc itself to work with, theoretically.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I want a new game but with Model 2 arcade like graphics

 

[MikeMyers]

People usually hold up NiGHTS or Virtua Fighter as the tent pole series of the Saturn, but to me, Panzer Dragoon is to the Saturn what Final Fantasy was to Sony and Zelda was to Nintendo. It's the reason you get a saturn these days.

I dunno, Fighters Megamix (technically a VF game) is still a solid reason to get the system.

 

[Krejlooc]

Sounds uplifiting

Still hoping for an HD remaster some day, even tho the source code is lost. They still have the code off the disc itself to work with, theoretically.

It's not bleak and depressing, it just has a very alien and haunting aesthetic. The mood of the series straddles a feeling of being free from the dregs of the dying earth now that you have a dragon, and rescuing and uplifting people who essentially worship you.

 

[Jaeger]

Zweii is amazing.

 

[Northeastmonk]

It arrived today. The disc(s) look great.

 

[Resilient]

It arrived today. The disc(s) look great.

amazing photos. though i wanna play it in Eng, price is just way too high. I'll get to Azel in time.

 

[Rezae]

I never did get the Saga hype. It was a fine game, but best RPG ever? Almost sounds like some people are trying to justify the rarity/price. Don't get me wrong it was one of the best Saturn games and I wish they could have expanded and refined the formula more in a sequel or two.

I can always go back and play Zwei - that game is timeless and definitely deserves to be in the conversation of best ever in its genre. I don't remember much about Orta but thought it was pretty good.

Love the overall setting in the series. That it kind of fizzled out and didn't get the exposure it deserved is a big loss for gaming.

 

[JonathanNemo]

It arrived today. The disc(s) look great.

Feel free to post your impressions in the Saturn community thread. If you want, y'know.

 

[Krejlooc]

It arrived today. The disc(s) look great.

impressions?

^He should rather post his impressions in the thread actually for the game, instead of a megathread

I never did get the Saga hype. It was a fine game, but best RPG ever? Almost sounds like some people are trying to justify the rarity/price. Don't get me wrong it was one of the best Saturn games and I wish they could have expanded and refined the formula more in a sequel or two.

A) I didn't pay an insane price for Panzer Dragoon Saga
B) Panzer Dragoon Saga is hardly the rarest or most expensive game I own. Even among Sega Saturn games, I own Shinrei Jusatsushi taromaru, The Shining Force III Platinum Disc, and Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition. Yet I don't go around calling those the greatest games ever.

 

[JonathanNemo]

impressions?

^He should rather post his impressions in the thread actually for the game, instead of a megathread

We do have an LTTP thread from earlier this year. That could be another worthwhile place.

 

[Schnauzer]

My ranking
1) Panzer Dragoon Zwei
2) Panzer Dragoon Saga
3) Panzer Dragoon Orta
4) Panzer Dragoon (Included in Orta)

That being said Otra is a great introduction.

 

[KAOS]

Crimson Dragon might be a departure from the Dragoon games but it's really not that bad. The controls might take some getting use to at the very least it offered co-op game play. If you have an X1 check it out!