I'm gonna have to ignore that proof in favour of what I suggested as it sounds cooler.
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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
I'm gonna have to ignore that proof in favour of what I suggested as it sounds cooler.
Outright Villainy
Member
The thing that interests me the most right now lore wise is the time travel aspects of the game, which is even murkier than anything previously done with oolacile or the giant's memories. What confuses me most is that you visit the Untended graves by walking straight from Lothric castle, yet here the sky is completely black. However, firelink shrine isn't connnected by any sort of straight path to any area, you have to warp, yet ostensibly it's in the same time frame given the NPCs coming and going, unless they're just connecting to your presence by stopping over in Firelink.
However, even though the graves are physically connected to Lothric castle, I think the placement of the Way of the dragon pose in the room before is no coincidence. In this game, the WoD use meditation as a way of connecting to other realms. Arch dragon peak is visible from lothric, but not directly connected and I believe whether the fire gets linked or not, will always exist unchanging outside the cycle. I think the untended graves use a similar sort of weird magic on its path, bringing you to a specific snapshot in time of when a champion failed to link the fire, or failed to appear at all. Here, finding the hidden corpse of the Firekeeper, we learn the true secret of linking the flame; it isn't necessary. Once our firekeeper takes the soul she says she sees vision of flickers of flame emerging from the darkness of letting the fire die, suggesting if the world forgoes restarting the cycle and doing everything again in a similar way, new life will start.
However, even though the graves are physically connected to Lothric castle, I think the placement of the Way of the dragon pose in the room before is no coincidence. In this game, the WoD use meditation as a way of connecting to other realms. Arch dragon peak is visible from lothric, but not directly connected and I believe whether the fire gets linked or not, will always exist unchanging outside the cycle. I think the untended graves use a similar sort of weird magic on its path, bringing you to a specific snapshot in time of when a champion failed to link the fire, or failed to appear at all. Here, finding the hidden corpse of the Firekeeper, we learn the true secret of linking the flame; it isn't necessary. Once our firekeeper takes the soul she says she sees vision of flickers of flame emerging from the darkness of letting the fire die, suggesting if the world forgoes restarting the cycle and doing everything again in a similar way, new life will start.
They are the lords' souls.
Seath's soul was Gwyn's soul like the four kings, so it is only 1/5 of a soul we are missing.
But yeah, it is a glaring omission, the way the flames near the door are positioned uneven also looks like a 4th is missing, but that's maybe OCD talking.
That area is such a pain to go through, let alone explore, I wonder if there is a reference to Seath somewhere.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Can you take a pic of what you mean by this?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Reading at some descriptions Gwynevere married Oceiros, but she leaved after Ocelotte was born. I wonder why? Any other items mentions anything?
Also is mentioned that she was the mother of many, like the dancer and others mentioned, but she only had one son with Oceiros? But maybe is meant as a "spiritual mother"?.
Gwynevere actions are still a mistery to me lol.
She refers to Gwyn as Father too, is confusing, but my guess is that Gwyndolin hide her real fathers, she's clearly Priscilla daughter.
Also is mentioned that she was the mother of many, like the dancer and others mentioned, but she only had one son with Oceiros? But maybe is meant as a "spiritual mother"?.
Gwynevere actions are still a mistery to me lol.
She refers to Gwyn as Father too, is confusing, but my guess is that Gwyndolin hide her real fathers, she's clearly Priscilla daughter.
I am almost there on my current playthrough, so sure.
But what I mean is something like this.
Flame door flame
Flame
I remember that the first time I passed through there, I was like "man, that should have been an isosceles triangle, lol.
Banana Aeon
Member
I think it's less of a stretch for Yorshka to be Ocelotte than her to be Priscilla's daughter.
Could just be in a religious sense.
Yeah I agree. She just was taken away from Oceiros, hidden (locked up in that tower) and her name changed.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
So something was bugging me earlier,and i think ive "figured out" something major, gonna post screens in asecond
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Oceiros refers to Ocelotte as a he, not a she.
Well... It wouldn't be the first time the leader of the Darkmoon is ambiguous about their gender
If we're just gonna throw lore out as "From's bein dum" then why even have the conversation at all?
DS2 happening on another continent that stole the lordvessel is fine to me. People went way overboard with lore scraping at the time (which ended up being for naught, as SotFS changed alot anyways) but now it feels like a complete backslide of "lore never really matters except a few super explicit parts". I just don't get this attitude anymore.
I'm really curious what DeS links there are. The Storm Ruler hinting that the other storm ruler made it's way to the land of Boletaria is awesome to me. I like the idea that there are other continents with other things going on on them.
I like that Dark Souls 2 was a story of a king that crossed the sea and stole the flame and the lordvessel from lordran, and that the ds2 great ones aren't actually just reincarnations, but are corrupted beings that covet the 4 lord souls. That's interesting to me. DS1 talked about other kingdoms in other parts of the world and the idea that DeS and DS2 are actually about other kingdoms in Lordran's world is something i like.
Yorshka's connection to the gods of Anor Londo is through Gwyndolin, one way or another.
Yorshka's Chime description: A sacred chime belonging to Yorshka. Her brother, the former knight captain, presented her with this medium together with another gift: her name. The ringing of the chime must have done much to soothe her loneliness.
The former knight captain it's referring to is pretty much certainly Gwyndolin; he's the former captain of the Blades of the Darkmoon. He also named her, which implies some things with regards to their relationship. In one of her dialogues (which I didn't screencap at the time, so I'm paraphrasing here) she refers to him by name and says she'd like you to meet him.
Which you do, but not in the way she envisioned. Probably best to just keep that li'l incident a secret.
Both Storm Rulers are accounted for in Dark Souls 3, though. Siegward's got his, and then there's the one that's sitting at the foot of Yhorm's throne. Complete Siegward's quest and he'll give you his, leaving you with both in your inventory.
Yorshka's Chime description: A sacred chime belonging to Yorshka. Her brother, the former knight captain, presented her with this medium together with another gift: her name. The ringing of the chime must have done much to soothe her loneliness.
The former knight captain it's referring to is pretty much certainly Gwyndolin; he's the former captain of the Blades of the Darkmoon. He also named her, which implies some things with regards to their relationship. In one of her dialogues (which I didn't screencap at the time, so I'm paraphrasing here) she refers to him by name and says she'd like you to meet him.
Which you do, but not in the way she envisioned. Probably best to just keep that li'l incident a secret.
Both Storm Rulers are accounted for in Dark Souls 3, though. Siegward's got his, and then there's the one that's sitting at the foot of Yhorm's throne. Complete Siegward's quest and he'll give you his, leaving you with both in your inventory.
So this has probably been discussed, but could Rosaria actually be a cursed/disfigured Gwynevere? There are a few things that might support this:
Seems like a lot of oblique references and similarities between the two. Maybe Rosaria is just another child of the royal family of Lothric, but I think maybe it's more than that.
- The queen of Lothric (kingdom) is said to have been a goddess of fertility, which is probably a reference to Gwynevere
- The queen is said to have disappeared "quietly" after the birth of her youngest child, Ocelotte
- Rosaria is mute, having had her tongue cut out by her firstborn (possibly Lorian, who is said to have embraced his brother's curse?)
- Rosaria's soul can be transposed into Bountiful Sunlight, a miracle of Gwynevere (not just Gwynevere's maidens, but Gwynevere herself)
- Rosaria's chamber has obvious similarities to Gwynevere's room in Anor Londo
- When Leonhard steals Rosaria's soul, he takes it to Gwynevere's room in Anor Londo
Seems like a lot of oblique references and similarities between the two. Maybe Rosaria is just another child of the royal family of Lothric, but I think maybe it's more than that.
it all makes a lot of sense really
but what happened to the boobs man
EXPLAIN THE BOOBS
you can't go from D-cups to flat, especially after giving birth to a few children......unless that is their curse
or her curse rather
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Divine blessing also refers the Gwynvere/QoL as goddess of rebirth.
So yea anyway, PS has wings right? Well maybe not
Considering pilgrims and pilgrims butterflys, this is real interesting if those are branches
I generally agree with this (think I posted it earlier) which is why I usually dismiss it when some try to use it as justification because it's so convoluted. Also there's just a section of things in the souls which you know (and From/miyazaki even admits at time) are only/mostly there for the game convenience aspect (such as the Andre statues having no significance at all in Souls 1 for instance)
Although convergence does feel pretty easy. It's cool and it could make for interesting stories but I don't think it's super well utilized. It's mostly used as a narrative tool to close up varying unrelated places and bosses but the people don't seem to phased and the plot itself uses it very little past the premise
Divine blessing also refers the Gwynvere/QoL as goddess of rebirth.
So yea anyway, PS has wings right? Well maybe not
Considering pilgrims and pilgrims butterflys, this is real interesting if those are branches
I've mentioned that about three times
Guys I went down the rabbit hole.
Marvelous Chester:
Oh, for Juniper's sake. Put some spring into your step!
The given name Juniper is either in reference to the English common name for the juniper tree or berry, or in reference to a derivation of the Welsh name Guinevere.
... ok
The Welsh form Gwenhwyfar, which seems to be cognate with the Irish name Findabair, can be translated as "The White Enchantress" or "The White Fay/Ghost"
...o...ok...
Findabair or Finnabair (modern Irish Fionnabhair [ˈfʲɪn̪əuɾʲ]) was a daughter of Ailill and Queen Medb of Connacht in Irish mythology. The meaning of her name is not known for certain, but could be "white phantom" (in which case it is etymologically cognate with Gwenhwyfar, the original Welsh form of Guinevere).
I... huh.
Helm of Lautrec the Embraced, representing the goddess Fina's love.
What the fuck is going on? White Ghost/Phantom/Enchantress? Priscilla? I can't even.
Marvelous Chester:
Oh, for Juniper's sake. Put some spring into your step!
The given name Juniper is either in reference to the English common name for the juniper tree or berry, or in reference to a derivation of the Welsh name Guinevere.
... ok
The Welsh form Gwenhwyfar, which seems to be cognate with the Irish name Findabair, can be translated as "The White Enchantress" or "The White Fay/Ghost"
...o...ok...
Findabair or Finnabair (modern Irish Fionnabhair [ˈfʲɪn̪əuɾʲ]) was a daughter of Ailill and Queen Medb of Connacht in Irish mythology. The meaning of her name is not known for certain, but could be "white phantom" (in which case it is etymologically cognate with Gwenhwyfar, the original Welsh form of Guinevere).
I... huh.
Helm of Lautrec the Embraced, representing the goddess Fina's love.
What the fuck is going on? White Ghost/Phantom/Enchantress? Priscilla? I can't even.
Killer Queen
Banned
There are so many parodies in this thread I can't even tell if you're being serious or not.
No, I'm not kidding. These three names are equivalent. And they're relevant to 2 shifty dudes who pretend to be bros and trying to fuck with you. Both of them from Carim, no less. That seems like an awful lot of coincidences.
What's the deal with random enemies having red eyes? They're generally tougher than most mobs. Is it just a stylistic choice? Why would the one random Silver Knight in Anor Londor have them and not the others? Finito confirmed? We need justice for Aldia. I can't believe they didn't do anything with him.
It was the same with Knights in Demon's Souls. Probably just a small reference to that.
FF Seraphim
Member
I am assuming this was brought up... but Ornstein... the one you fight in DS1 was fake? So was the one in DS2?
The armor you find in DS3 is the real thing? Did his mentor/nameless king kill him? WTF so many questions
The armor you find in DS3 is the real thing? Did his mentor/nameless king kill him? WTF so many questions
Killer Queen
Banned
He might've died of old age or something. I don't think it was ever mentioned how godlike the knights were so maybe they weren't immortal like the gods we know.
FF Seraphim
Member
Could he have become a dragon? If he followed his mentor...
Killer Queen
Banned
I guess you could believe that if you want but there isn't really anything to suggest that afaik it would also be odd going from Dragonslayer to Dragon. Protecting them is at least a little more logical.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The one is DS1 was most likely an illusion.
The one in DS2....let's forget about that nonsense.
What happened between NK and him is a mistery, they probably fought each other.
Pursuer also have red eyes in DS2, which also accompanied by a dark aura.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj6lSf9SbsE
(this version is also stronger than the pursuer boss, which don't have red eyes)
My guess is that the enemies with red eyes in DS3 are also touched by darkness (the big dark snakes that pops from certain hollows has also red eyes).
There's also the fact that one of the Abyss Watches has red eyes and turns against his comrades in which they retaliate. Also fits the narrative of the cutscene before that battle: Darkness is spreading among them, so they are purging themselves.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
DP
Think they've been tainted by the abyss. Pus of Man enemies, which are basically humanity gone out of control, have red eyes.
Edit: Holy fuck I should have read to the end of the thread :lol
I agree with Mr Muscle.
I mean, it was only "nonsense" because at the time it was pretty solidly thought that Ornstein was real/died at Anor Londo.
Now that's pretty much not the case and since optional bosses are potentially never killed (Gwyndolin), Old Dragonslayer from DS2 could very well be Ornstein. Who knows.
Empty Space
Member
It wouldn't make much sense for Old Dragonslayer to be real Ornstein though right? I mean that one uses dark magic and probably shouldn't be a thing Ornstein does.
Eeeeh. Timeline shit and Abyss corrupting everything.
To be clear, I never said it was Ornstein, just that it could definitely be (and even moreso now since there's strong evidence that Anor Londo Ornstein was a fake).
I never thought it was Ornstein at the time but, again, who knows.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
The latest ENB episode kinda blew my mind, can't believe i missed Elizabeth(?) on the spot you find the Golden Scroll and Dusk's clothes
FF Seraphim
Member
this is all i will ever think of when i think of old dragonslayer
i just figure its like all the havel appearances, just some dude wearin' the same armor and doing close enough shit because why not
Smough's armor tells you that he was the last one to defend the cathedral, the Dragonslayer Armor says:
" Golden (piece name) associated with Dragonslayer Ornstein, from the age of gods, and imbued with the strength of lightning.
In the dragonless age, this knight, who long guarded the ruined cathedral, left the land in search of their nameless king."
So either he found him and died in his service or was changed into a dragon or something...
Empty Space
Member
Right, but he could have made a stop during his search. I mean there was some weird dragon stuff going on in Drangleic and if nothing else plenty of Wyverns to hunt. I'm not sure what the actual deal with the Old Dragonslayer is and I'm okay with the idea that is Ornstein. There is that inconsistency of the dark magic though and I can't really hand wave it with abyss corruption.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Well, no doubt that the decision of give Ornstein this new background was to fix DS2 mess regarding this character, but it still leaves a lot of questions.
I mean, it makes sense that Ornstein did leave his duty as a guardian of anor londo to search for his lord.
Dosn't make sense that Ornstein is guarding some stupid empty cathedral that houses some stupid covenant. Or why he uses dark magic, when his soul dosn't look tainted by the abyss....
They're in the Zone.
It's a stylistic choice indicating they're tougher than usual. I don't think it means anything besides that.
Associated is an important word here, if it was flat out Ornstein, surely it would have said "worn by Dragonslayer Ornstein". It never specifies it as being Ornstein, just *a* Dragonslayer who guarded the Cathedral and left, so it doesn't really mess with the canon of us killing Ornstein in 1.
FF Seraphim
Member
The 2nd line is the important part. We know Ornstein leaves his position to find his mentor.
I guess you can read it in two ways
"Golden (piece name) associated with Dragonslayer Ornstein, from the age of gods, and imbued with the strength of lightning.
In the dragonless age, this knight, who long guarded the ruined cathedral, left the land in search of the nameless king."
So either read it as Ornstein being "this" knight. Or "This Knight" is the owner of the armour set, a set merely associated with Ornstein. We know there are multiple Dragonslayers, we have Ornstein, the guy in Dark Souls 2 and the Dragonslayer Armour boss itself implies as much
SoulUnison
Banned
You make it sound like this is your personal thread and you're Discussion King.
StrawberryKikwi
Member
What I don't understand is why in Dark Souls 3 Smough is called the last knight to guard the cathedral, while in Dark Souls 1 it says that him eating the bones of his own victims ruined his chances of being ranked with the Four Knights. I always took that to mean that he could never be considered a knight and was merely an executioner, but now I'm taking it to mean that he was in fact a knight, just not as prestigious a knight as the Four Knights.
Does GAF feel the same?
Does GAF feel the same?
funkystudent
Member
OK I have lore questions!
Is the Smouldering Lake Lost Izalith after the Lava cooled?
And after 5 Souls games was there ever a lore reason for illusionary walls?
Is the Smouldering Lake Lost Izalith after the Lava cooled?
And after 5 Souls games was there ever a lore reason for illusionary walls?
I really doubt it's a purely stylistic choice. I mean isn't it suspect that red eyed abyss watchers would fight regular ones if it were purely stylistic?
I like to think the lava just leaked over into Ash Lake, so now it's Smouldering instead.
The description for Smough's Hammer is Dark souls is:
Great Hammer from the soul of executioner Smough, who guards the cathedral in the forsaken city of Anor Londo.
Smough loved his work, and ground the bones of his victims into his own feed, ruining his hopes of being ranked with the Four Knights
It doesn't imply that he wasn't a knight, merely that his penchant for grinding bones to make his bread ruined his hopes of being ranked alongside Ornstein, Artorias, Gough, and Ciaran. There are plenty of other knights in Anor Londo besides the big four, even as of the time of Dark Souls.
Smough's presence as a guard of the cathedral seemed to me like a way to communicate how far Anor Londo had fallen: the most important place in the city is guarded by the last of the Four Knights and Smashy the Cannibal.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the implication that Ornstein bailed and the Ornstein of Dark Souls was an illusion. I liked the idea of him being the only one of the surviving three who stayed loyal through everything even if it meant spending his days with nobody but Amazing Chesty the Illusion and the villain from Jack and the Beanstalk for company. Smough's actually such poor company that Frampt only gives you a single soul in return if you feed him Smough's Soul. That's what he gives you for feeding him Rubbish. It's basically Dark Souls canon that Smough is literally garbage.