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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
Those beta screenshots are interesting now that the game is out.
Especially more than the leaking sun (that I assume is just the same as the eclipse in the final version) the one with the cloudy sky and full of wyverns.
I know they are now the Butterflies but being more like Dragons would probably have more effect with the lore
Yo the Dancer is an NPC? Makes sense but yooooo
also those are just early models of the pilgrim butterflies. Pretty clearly that.
nah, i think they're actually holding up an axe handle/sword handle.
it fits in with the weird tyrannical theme of the rest of the place's statues. also, they're definitely statues.
incoming image dump:
also another cute detail: the alive gargoyles in profaned capitol actually are headless and tailless:
Ghostmaster
Member
I mean they could be, but why would it have a dragon's head at the (presumably) bottom of it with a seeming hole in it?
i was seeing that as a pommel more than anything, haha
i wish i were in the yhorm assist range- i'd try and get a shot of his sword to see if it has a similar handle. i bet it totally does since they love that kinda callback
it's real weird that they're pointed that way if it's a handle though.
Maybe he didn't. Remember that beyond Oceiros room are the Untended Graves and the dark Firelink Shrine, they may just have re-used the geometry
Naw man
talking about theeeeeese crows
Ha. Well I guess they didn't want to add too much fanservice
I thought it was the handle added to Yhorm's Machete. Looks fairly similar.
Yhorm's Great Machete said:
I like the imagery of humans carrying his throne and the braziers. Seems like a metaphor for humans being slaves to the Lords' wish for keeping the Flame going.
It's been brought up. Some insiders have said the CG appearance was unintentionally similar to a DS2 giant.
I refuse to believe there were higher ups that looked at it and thought "yah that's good that's not misleading at all"
Unless it's Miyazaki trolling again.
My personal theory is that originally it was intended to evoke the image of a DS2 giant, but the changed it somewhere in development.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Naw man
talking about theeeeeese crows
I was really, really hoping for Ornifex to show up again. Ornifex, Shalquoir, Benhart, Agadayne, Tark. All those great DS2 npcs and the only two who show up in DS3 are Creighton and fucking Gilligan.
Fucking. Gilligan. And he's already dead to boot! C'mon FROM, don't do me like this.
I'm kind of with you, but I generally think less of the series lore is planned and intended than most people seem to.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Well, there is also Alva.
The entire Vendrick "Royal Family" lore is one of my favorite bits. Vendrick, Aldia, Raime, Velstadt, Nashandra, and the Giants/Golems is one of the most coherent and explained plots of the Dark Souls mythology. I also really like the Child of the Dark stuff that extends through the DLC.
It kind of drops off rapidly outside of that, though.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
With the nature of the setting it doesn't have to be planned out very far, is the thing. Miyazaki is free to say "well, and then everything was this way because reality is unstable and fragmented".
And that's fine. In fact, I like it because it allows everyone endlessly imagine how the universe fits together, and there's a bit of truth in most theories. It's probably frustrating though, for those who want a single timeline and conventional cause and effect between events.
Went into the game now and sadly couldn't find this place again. Anyone stumble upon it? Googling gave me nothing.
EDIT: welp, it's the place with the marriage. A questline I completely missed in my playthrough.
I really wish we had gotten that area where the sun was leaking a black goop. It seems like at some point the game had more emphasis on the black goop that burst from some of the hollows. It looked really cool.
The area you're describing sounds like where Gwyndolin was in Dark Souls 1. There is an item in the room, hidden in a tight spot. It's a ring Gwyndolin used, and it changes your animations to the opposite gender.
The area you're describing sounds like where Gwyndolin was in Dark Souls 1. There is an item in the room, hidden in a tight spot. It's a ring Gwyndolin used, and it changes your animations to the opposite gender.
Ghostmaster
Member
There is one item there though even without the questline. The reversal ring.
Ah yes, picked this one in my playthrough actually. Didn't think much of it so I promptly forgot it.
So I spent some collecting my thoughts on the status of the Undead Curse by the time of Dark Souls 3 and I think I got it. Also, some of the things I wrote were partially inspired by some of your posts, so thank you.
Let me know what you think.
On Hollowing, Embers, and how Unkindled are not regular Undead
(This post is, of course, purely speculation on my part, but I think I might be onto something here.)
One of the main differences between Dark Souls 3 and the previous games, is that our character does not become Hollow upon death. We keep our normal appearance at all times, and the only way to actually become Hollow is by accepting the Dark Sigil from Yoel of Londor. To me, this is because an Unkindled is not quite the same thing as an Undead.
On the original Dark Souls we use Humanity to revive, an item that looks like a tiny black sprite. By the end of the game we find out that what we call Humanity are actually small pieces of the Dark Soul, and that this Dark Soul is inherently linked to mankind thanks to the Furtive Pygmy, while the Lords linked their souls to the First Flame instead, starting the Age of Fire. It makes sense: when we offer our Humanity to the bonfire were actually becoming less human in order to revert the hollowing.
Enter Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin. Aldia spent his life trying to escape the cycle of Fire and Dark. From what he says to us in Dark Souls 2, Hollows are actually the true shape of man, with mankind being just a fleeting form we took thanks to the Age of Fire. The Undead Curse is just man reverting to their original form due to the Flame dying out. At the end of Dark Souls 2, Aldia asks the Bearer of the Curse whether he will choose between Light (linking the flame, once again ending the curse temporarily,) Dark (let the Flame fade out, allowing mankind to return to its original form,) or something else entirely. Well, Dark Souls 3 leads me to believe Aldia ended up convincing mankind of taking that third option.
Our DS3 character (the Unkindled) is an Undead who apparently doesnt have a fire of its own, but can gain the power of a Lord of Cinder by consuming an Ember, which actually looks like a Dark Souls 1 Humanity but made of fire instead of a Dark Soul fragment. My theory on this is that Aldia, along with someone at Drangleic (who might or might not have been the Bearer of the Curse) somehow were able to sever the link between mankind and the Dark Soul, by replacing it with the Flame.
The description of the Drang Set (which is just Dark Souls 2s Llewellyn Set) says it originates in the land where the Legend of the Linking of the Fire came from. It makes sense: At the end of Dark Souls, everyone who knows about the Flame is either dead or keeping it a secret (Frampt,) and we can also walk away from the Kiln at the end, in which case there is no Linking. Either way, no one knows about it. By the time of Dark Souls 2, Vendrick is protecting the Kiln under Drangleic Castle and Aldia is actively trying to escape the cycle, which means that at some point between 1 and 2 mankind was made aware of the nature of the Flame and the cycle.
Also, take a look at Aldia when we meet him: the guy literally is connected to the fire at all times. He appears only in the bonfires. He is immortal (he continues to talk to us after we kill it at the end of the game.) He clearly found a way to escape the Undead Curse through the use of the Flame. It was probably soon after discovering this that some rules were set in place in case the Flame started fading again. Thats how the legend of Linking the Fire came to be, and these safety measures were created. Hence the bell ringing in DS3, the Lords of Cinder and Unkindled rising from their graves, etc. The Unkindled being special undead who dont have a soul of their own (and if they do, its not linked to the Dark Soul, not anymore) and thats why they dont go Hollow and can use the power of the Lords of Cinder: because they can link themselves to the power of the Flame instead.
Going back to Dark Souls 1, Kaathe tried to convince the Chosen Undead of letting the First Flame die and let darkness take over, since the Age of Dark is the Age of Man due to our link to the Dark Soul. Its only logical that by the time of Dark Souls 3 only Kaathes followers willingly kept their connection to the Dark Soul, the original Humanity. Thats why Yoel of Londor gives us the Dark Sigil: hes restoring our link to Humanity, because being Hollow is the only way to be a whole, true human again, and only a true Human can be a Dark Lord.
tl;dr: At some point between DS2 and DS3 mankind got rid of the curse by severing their link to the Dark Soul, most likely with help from Aldia, which also gave Undead the ability to use Fire instead. Only Kaathes followers, still waiting for a Dark Lord, chose to keep the link.
Let me know what you think.
On Hollowing, Embers, and how Unkindled are not regular Undead
(This post is, of course, purely speculation on my part, but I think I might be onto something here.)
One of the main differences between Dark Souls 3 and the previous games, is that our character does not become Hollow upon death. We keep our normal appearance at all times, and the only way to actually become Hollow is by accepting the Dark Sigil from Yoel of Londor. To me, this is because an Unkindled is not quite the same thing as an Undead.
On the original Dark Souls we use Humanity to revive, an item that looks like a tiny black sprite. By the end of the game we find out that what we call Humanity are actually small pieces of the Dark Soul, and that this Dark Soul is inherently linked to mankind thanks to the Furtive Pygmy, while the Lords linked their souls to the First Flame instead, starting the Age of Fire. It makes sense: when we offer our Humanity to the bonfire were actually becoming less human in order to revert the hollowing.
Enter Aldia, Scholar of the First Sin. Aldia spent his life trying to escape the cycle of Fire and Dark. From what he says to us in Dark Souls 2, Hollows are actually the true shape of man, with mankind being just a fleeting form we took thanks to the Age of Fire. The Undead Curse is just man reverting to their original form due to the Flame dying out. At the end of Dark Souls 2, Aldia asks the Bearer of the Curse whether he will choose between Light (linking the flame, once again ending the curse temporarily,) Dark (let the Flame fade out, allowing mankind to return to its original form,) or something else entirely. Well, Dark Souls 3 leads me to believe Aldia ended up convincing mankind of taking that third option.
Our DS3 character (the Unkindled) is an Undead who apparently doesnt have a fire of its own, but can gain the power of a Lord of Cinder by consuming an Ember, which actually looks like a Dark Souls 1 Humanity but made of fire instead of a Dark Soul fragment. My theory on this is that Aldia, along with someone at Drangleic (who might or might not have been the Bearer of the Curse) somehow were able to sever the link between mankind and the Dark Soul, by replacing it with the Flame.
The description of the Drang Set (which is just Dark Souls 2s Llewellyn Set) says it originates in the land where the Legend of the Linking of the Fire came from. It makes sense: At the end of Dark Souls, everyone who knows about the Flame is either dead or keeping it a secret (Frampt,) and we can also walk away from the Kiln at the end, in which case there is no Linking. Either way, no one knows about it. By the time of Dark Souls 2, Vendrick is protecting the Kiln under Drangleic Castle and Aldia is actively trying to escape the cycle, which means that at some point between 1 and 2 mankind was made aware of the nature of the Flame and the cycle.
Also, take a look at Aldia when we meet him: the guy literally is connected to the fire at all times. He appears only in the bonfires. He is immortal (he continues to talk to us after we kill it at the end of the game.) He clearly found a way to escape the Undead Curse through the use of the Flame. It was probably soon after discovering this that some rules were set in place in case the Flame started fading again. Thats how the legend of Linking the Fire came to be, and these safety measures were created. Hence the bell ringing in DS3, the Lords of Cinder and Unkindled rising from their graves, etc. The Unkindled being special undead who dont have a soul of their own (and if they do, its not linked to the Dark Soul, not anymore) and thats why they dont go Hollow and can use the power of the Lords of Cinder: because they can link themselves to the power of the Flame instead.
Going back to Dark Souls 1, Kaathe tried to convince the Chosen Undead of letting the First Flame die and let darkness take over, since the Age of Dark is the Age of Man due to our link to the Dark Soul. Its only logical that by the time of Dark Souls 3 only Kaathes followers willingly kept their connection to the Dark Soul, the original Humanity. Thats why Yoel of Londor gives us the Dark Sigil: hes restoring our link to Humanity, because being Hollow is the only way to be a whole, true human again, and only a true Human can be a Dark Lord.
tl;dr: At some point between DS2 and DS3 mankind got rid of the curse by severing their link to the Dark Soul, most likely with help from Aldia, which also gave Undead the ability to use Fire instead. Only Kaathes followers, still waiting for a Dark Lord, chose to keep the link.
Ordinaryundone
Member
Your character still has a Dark Sign, though. And Anri is an Unkindled but still goes Hollow at the end of their questline.
Not saying you are completely wrong though, there is definitely something that seperates a normal Undead from an Unkindled.
Ha. Well I guess they didn't want to add too much fanservice
True, I can't go against my own words really
was mostly facetious tho.I am really curious about what the DLC will bring tho because DLCs so far have always been pretty good in elevating the lore or tying up loose ends.
I know our character still has the Dark Sign, but apparently you still need the Dark Sigil to go hollow. Maybe all Undead still have the Dark Sign and severing the link to the Dark Soul doesn't remove it, just the ability to go hollow?
Anri going hollow is a bit weird though. Maybe she got the Dark Sigil at some point.
FF Seraphim
Member
She has the dark Sigil since you get 3 from her.
Nice. My post still makes sense. I spent waaay too long writing it, lol
Isn't the whole marriage storyline the greatest love story?
Person just like you is adventuring with his trusted companion and you need her as a spouse because fuck it, that's what lords do.
So you kill the best friend (he attacked first!), lie to your future spouse's face about it, have your thug manipulate him/her into going hollow and then perform a ritual sacrifice by sticking a sword into his/her face.
And they say romance is dead.
Person just like you is adventuring with his trusted companion and you need her as a spouse because fuck it, that's what lords do.
So you kill the best friend (he attacked first!), lie to your future spouse's face about it, have your thug manipulate him/her into going hollow and then perform a ritual sacrifice by sticking a sword into his/her face.
And they say romance is dead.
MarcoZombieCannon
Member
To be fair I killed Horace after she was asking about him! And Lady Anri at least totally starts having the hots for the MC in her Yorshka Church dialog.
Still a better love story than Twilight.
FF Seraphim
Member
She was already hollow though...
Man I knew what was going to happen and felt bad when she was talking about how much she admired you
AWizardDidIt
Member
I really hope at least one of the DS3 dlcs deals with the movers and shakers of that world. The Primordial Serpents and Aldia seem like they should be so important to the status quo but besides barely a reference to Kaathe and some strange statuary in Lothric Castle, they're entirely absent.
i also feel like hollows aren't actually natural entities anymore but for a real dumb reason. if you look at all the people who hang out at firelink and their ultimate fate, not a single one of them hollows out besides anri/horace, who explicitly have the dark sigil.
this is like a total turnaround for ds1 where every single dude's quest ends in hollowing and death to some degree- that separation being so explicit is real interesting
i'm actually curious on how many enemies you fight are actually hollow- it seems like only the lothric soldiers and recently risen undead are real hollows while the rest clearly have a logical reason to be kicking your ass on site
this is like a total turnaround for ds1 where every single dude's quest ends in hollowing and death to some degree- that separation being so explicit is real interesting
i'm actually curious on how many enemies you fight are actually hollow- it seems like only the lothric soldiers and recently risen undead are real hollows while the rest clearly have a logical reason to be kicking your ass on site
Dwight Schrute
Member
Maybe there is an easy explanation already given in the game, but :
Why do some enemies "stay" in the world and ragdoll while some other "fade away" with the that "swooosh" noise ?
Why do some enemies "stay" in the world and ragdoll while some other "fade away" with the that "swooosh" noise ?
WhateverItTakes
Banned
The game was great, one fundamental story part I'm having trouble wrapping my head around though.
So the Lords of Cinder are those who linked the first flame, and they get resurrected so the next champion can go and do the same, right? But then, why the 5 we had in the game? Surely there's like a whole pool of beings that linked the first fire if the cycle has been going on for so long. Did all the lords go through the same journey we did or am I taking things the wrong way?
So the Lords of Cinder are those who linked the first flame, and they get resurrected so the next champion can go and do the same, right? But then, why the 5 we had in the game? Surely there's like a whole pool of beings that linked the first fire if the cycle has been going on for so long. Did all the lords go through the same journey we did or am I taking things the wrong way?
Ordinaryundone
Member
It's weird, some of the Lords definitely linked the Fire, others it seem did not, at least not of their own will. Ludleth and Yhorm did it but Aldritch was "made" into a Lord of Cinder (whatever that means) after he became a man eating blob. And the Super Lothric Bros. adamantly didn't link the Fire and were actively against it, unless I misinterpreted something.
I've gone over this before, but pretty much everything in the game suggests that to be called a lord of cinder, you have to have somehow linked the flame. That's how you get the title. Like you said though, it may not have been by choice, and I always took Aldritch being "made" to become a LoC meaning he was forced/made to link it somehow. Prince Lothric is an interesting case, but even if he's the exception, I think he'd be the *only* exception and will likely be fleshed out more in the DLC. However, I still think we don't have enough info to suggest he didn't link the fire once before, since based on what we know from the game itself, there is no other reason why he would be called a lord of cinder unless he is somehow connected to the linking of the fire. (A possible (and heavily speculative) theory could be that he's related to Gwyn, but we can't know that yet and it's kind of useless to base theories on something like that)
Aren't most of the regular humanoid enemies you fight just straight up hollows?
Also, I'm starting to get worried with all the baseless speculation going on, ignoring stuff said explicitly in the game, people seeming to forget key lore points from DS1, and people trying to force certain elements of DS2 to fit when it seems like the game isn't trying to connect to them. I feel like we're never going to move forward at this rate.
The hand on their head is almost a carbon copy of Manus's, so they are presumably related to the Abyss in some fashion or another.
Manus:
Hand Monster:
The hand on their head is almost a carbon copy of Manus's, so they are presumably related to the Abyss in some fashion or another.
Hand Monster:
WTF, why I never saw that hand monstrosity? Guess I missed something.
tamaster92
Member
Probably already known but whilst searching round the environments I noticed that the coiled sword in the vessel at the high wall of lothric (where you first spawn, behind you) is chipped and broken at the end. Makes me think even more it's the one from the coiled sword fragment
They are in the Profaned Capital past the toxic swamp.
Killing them nets you a unique great axe called Eleonora.
Description said:
I'm curious who the 'certain oracle' is that the description mentions. The only oracle I can think of is Alsanna in Elyeum Loyce.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
Well I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. Also doesn't make too much sense why Lothric had the biggest throne in the shrine. Last hope of is holy line is dramatic sure, but all the Lords of Cinder should pretty much be on level pegging shouldn't they? Then again I guess Yhorm wasn't even the right size for his throne so maybe I'm reading too much into it.
borborygmus
Member
Lothric is the last hope because he's supposed to link the flame, but has instead completely bailed out on doing so. He's also the most important because it seems like he rules over the vast majority of the malformed, intertwined mess of a realm.
edit: Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know anymore. I was under the impression he hadn't yet become a "full" Lord of Cinder, and was next in line to link the fire, with the other 5 having to sacrifice themselves in order to do make that happen.
They are in the Profaned Capital past the toxic swamp.
Killing them nets you a unique great axe called Eleonora.
.
Thanks! Weird, I remember that swamp with the spider thingys but never saw those. Time to explore!
Jathaine
Member
The areas fit together too well for it not to be. Especially with you getting SO MANY Darkroot/Oolacile related items in Farron Keep and with the Abyss Watchers having come into being after the first Abyss Watcher (who was clearly Artorias). It honestly wouldn't make much sense for that to be some different place.
Other similar areas tend to have a lot of items from the DkS1 equivalent area as well. I don't know why they would do this if only to then say "Oh, but its totally not the same place even though we give you all these hints and it also fits geographically"