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[Joqu]

So, after having played the game for about 10 hours now, I am pretty sure the TGS demo and the final game are the same as far as lighting goes. The lighting changes drastically when you light a torch. Everything outside the light radius gets darker and the torch light (and certain other light sources such as bonfires) still casts dynamic shadows. The place shown in the gifs basically looks like the TGS demo when you go down there with a lit torch.

So at least there's that. But of course it's still a far cry from the first demos.

Would've made sense but that's not the case. Notice how the darkness is already there before the torch gets lit in the TGS demo.

 

[zephervack]

What is the torch mechanic that no longer works?

Were you supposed to light your way forward?

From the very beginning of the game, there are sconces throughout the map that you are supposed to light up in kind of a network.

Now you dont need the torch at all in those areas.

Someone posted a spoiler in the other thread regarding another mechanic that would have been tremendously rewarding but now its rendered meaningless since you can see everything without the torch anyways.

 

[marrec]

gfycat is amazing. Wish more people would use it, and yeah that is pretty striking.

Hmm, looking at this version... I really wish they would have been using the same equipment as the 'reveal' GIF. The lighting is clearly different... but I'm not so sure about the textures. The dragon looks washed out and lit poorly, but without a proper comparison it's hard to tell if the texture is completely different.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

because a lot of us know it's just another "super important" neogaf controversy that'll be forgotten in a week. except by the craziest loons who will be in the DLC thread trying to remind people about the massive deception that took place and saying we should all boycott, all because Namco never apologized.

Or, you know - not everyone is as jaded as you and some people actually believe that they should get what they believed they were paying for.

 

[Deified Data]

Don't understand why the people who are playing and enjoying this game are threatened by this kind of discussion. Clearly something happened to the lighting of the game between then and now - enough to make an entire gameplay system superfluous when it was originally being billed as a selling point. Does it warrant #YOLOHASHTAGWARZ? I don't know. What could it hurt? Worst case scenario nothing happens, best case scenario From patches the game to be as dark as it was originally meant to be.

I mean I'm loving the game so far but I can still admit From fucked up here. It hasn't effected my enjoyment of the game but at the same time I can say it's not living up to its potential.

 

[cascardian]

I'm thinking this might be at least some part of the reason. They might have realized people might not have liked an entire game revolving around the Tomb of the Giants mechanic.

Indeed! People in here defending this seem to assume that this campaign won't get anything accomplished and that we're stupid and should just swallow it, because it was obviously done for performance reasons anyway, so what could it possibly be that we're trying to accomplish, right?

In fact, this short little campaign has already managed to get Namco's attention and we're now awaiting what will come of it. I personally don't really care if it's an answer involving a late, QA-tested fundamental design decision such as the above or for performance reasons. Of course, it'll be nice hearing it from them, but I do care more that companies realise that fans won't stand for dishonesty of any kind, even if it turns out to be non-intentional and not actually malicious. They're selling a product (one we find generally good), for heaven's sake, and we should hold them up to standards. Even if mere awareness were the only substantial thing to come of this campaign, I'd still consider it successful.

If you deem such a cause unworthy for an enthusiast forum, then I don't know what to tell you.

As consumers, it is not our responsibility to ensure this doesn't become a slippery slope where companies only come to care about graphics because of a few hardcore fans protesting very clearly about false advertising. That's a ludicrous argument, anyway. If that were indeed what companies' community and PR people take away from this campaign, then they'd have to have people working for them who fail at basic reading comprehension skills. I simply refuse to believe that is the case.

 

[Bedlam]

Would've made sense but that's not the case. Notice how the darkness is already there before the torch gets lit in the TGS demo.

You can't really tell for sure. The offscreen footage looks darker and more contrast-y in general.

 

[kick51]

Or, you know - not everyone is as jaded as you and some people actually believe that they should get what they believed they were paying for.

actually, i didn't look at any pre-release stuff because the hype cycle is filled with spoilers and bullshit for every game since the beginning of time. i'll be extremely happy with what ever they put out when I decide to play it and having a better time with it than people who have dedicated their lives to a video game's hype cycle.

but sure keep touching stoves and getting burned, one day it won't be hot i'm sure

 

[Havel]

because a lot of us know it's just another "super important" neogaf controversy that'll be forgotten in a week. except by the craziest loons who will be in the DLC thread trying to remind people about the massive deception that took place and saying we should all boycott, all because Namco never apologized.

Anyone who claims we should boycott the game are in fact loons, I agree.

 

[marrec]

Or, you know - not everyone is as jaded as you and some people actually believe that they should get what they believed they were paying for.

I think that most people paid for Dark Souls II based on word of mouth or what they played of Dark Souls I and aren't aware of any possible downgrades... I mean, you have every right to be upset based on what I've seen, but what are the majority of consumers who were blissfully ignorant of these promises owed?

 

[Omegasquash]

I didn't expect it to look as good as it did in the reveal, so I'm not disappointed. It could look better in some spots, honestly, but whatever. Bring on the glorious PC release and the eventual improvement mods.

 

[Havel]

http://gfycat.com/CarefreeNewHornet = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJlmYh27MHg#t=2m11s

http://gfycat.com/FatalWhirlwindKissingbug = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w-58hQ9dLk

 

[nynt9]

Don't understand why the people who are playing and enjoying this game are threatened by this kind of discussion. Clearly something happened to the lighting of the game between then and now - enough to make an entire gameplay system superfluous when it was originally being billed as a selling point. Does it warrant #YOLOHASHTAGWARZ? I don't know. What could it hurt? Worst case scenario nothing happens, best case scenario From patches the game to be as dark as it was originally meant to be.

I mean I'm loving the game so far but I can still admit From fucked up here. It hasn't effected my enjoyment of the game but at the same time I can say it's not living up to its potential.

Because, personally, I think the game is already plenty dark and the original lighting system looked ugly and the torch mechanic isn't great and I'm glad that we don't have to deal with that the entire game. Dual wield builds, bow builds and two hand builds would be invalidated by a stupid mechanic that doesn't really have a place in a Souls game. So I'm glad it was taken out from the final version.

Edit: In fact, I'm fairly certain that From probably realized that the torch mechanic invalidates several builds as well which is probably why they toned it down.

 

[Sephzilla]

Indeed! People in here defending this seem to assume that this campaign won't get anything accomplished and that we're stupid and should just swallow it, because it was obviously done for performance reasons anyway, so what could it possibly be that we're trying to accomplish, right?

In fact, this short little campaign has already managed to get Namco's attention and we're now awaiting what will come of it. I personally don't really care if it's an answer involving a late, QA-tested fundamental design decision such as the above or for performance reasons. Of course, it'll be nice hearing it from them, but I do care more that companies realise that fans won't stand for dishonesty of any kind, even if it turns out to be non-intentional and not actually malicious. They're selling a product (one we find generally good), for heaven's sake, and we should hold them up to standards. Even if mere awareness were the only substantial thing to come of this campaign, I'd still consider it successful.

If you deem such a cause unworthy for an enthusiast forum, then I don't know what to tell you.

As consumers, it is not our responsibility to ensure this doesn't become a slippery slope where companies only come to care about graphics because of a few hardcore fans protesting very clearly about false advertising. That's a ludicrous argument, anyway. If that were indeed what companies' community and PR people take away from this campaign, then they'd have to have people working for them who fail at basic reading comprehension skills. I simply refuse to believe that is the case.

I more or less just want to know what From Soft's explanation is

 

[Kinsei]

Anyone who claims we should boycott the game are in fact loons, I agree.

Guess I'm a loon. I won't be buying the game unless they apologize and promise not to do it ever again. Granted I don't expect anyone else to boycott the game so I won't be going into other DS2 threads screaming my head off trying to get other people to boycott it as well.

 

[elyetis]

than people who have dedicated their lives to a video game's hype cycle.

You mean people who looked at video/pictures present on the game amazon/steam page when they brought/preordered the game ?

 

[Havel]

Because, personally, I think the game is already plenty dark and the original lighting system looked ugly and the torch mechanic isn't great and I'm glad that we don't have to deal with that the entire game. Dual wield builds, bow builds and two hand builds would be invalidated by a stupid mechanic that doesn't really have a place in a Souls game. So I'm glad it was taken out from the final version.

Edit: In fact, I'm fairly certain that From probably realized that the torch mechanic invalidates several builds as well which is probably why they toned it down.

Off topic but where is your avatar from? I've seen that so many times.

 

[zephervack]

At best this campaign might make them reconsider putting the lightning in the PC version, I really hope so.

All they have to say is "Sorry we couldnt get it running like the reveal on PS3 and testing showed that the we couldnt mantain the lightning of the TGS and January Demos on the retail release because of performance issues, the reveal was running on PC like we said in the IGN reveal, so the PC version will look like that on release"

The end

Would everyone find that answer acceptable?

 

[Joqu]

You can't really tell for sure. The offscreen footage looks darker and more contrast-y in general.

Well not that contrast-y though, it's completely different. I'm also not basing this on just that gif comparison by the way. Watching a video of the TGS demo should make the differences more apparent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v-xM2tzljA

 

[GooeyHeat]

Before anyone attacks me, I want to make it clear I loved Dark Souls and will be buying DS2 the day it comes out on PC.

But

FROM could probably promise people the game would jack them off every time they hit a button and people would insist it was a totally valid and likely thing that could happen because FROM said it up until the moment it becomes clear it won't happen.

The sheer number of people who swore up and down that the PC delay was so they could do the best possible job and not marketing bullshit is fucking crazy. There was so much "But they said it was so they could make it the best version!" Developers deliver on that all the time without half the bullshit that was hung around DS2 PC's neck. People gave them the benefit of the doubt because they were so bad at it last time.

You know why this game was downgraded? Because they can say and show whatever they want and people will be happy to fall on any grenade for it. It is probably a great, amazing game that I am putting down $50 for, but let's not act like they didn't know they'd be insulated from any and all criticism.

ShockingAlberto, where did your old tag go? You really are too reasonable for this forum.

Good grief. I guess I understand the feeling of having been misled, but every game changes throughout development. The reveal was eye-catching in a high-contrast kind of way, but it would likely have been unplayable.

It wasn't unplayable, because people were playing it. They were playing it on PS3 at prerelease events, and if I understand properly, they were playing it on their PS3's at home during the beta.

More like it'll confirm those were bullshit and that game never existed.

It existed on people's PS3 consoles during the beta.

Why do people keep saying "THEY HAD TO CUT THIS STUFF FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS."

People have PLAYED those better looking versions at trade shows. They have literally stood in front of a PS3 running the game and it ran just as good as the now gutted, awful looking version they released to retail.

This truly is a mystery, and an absolutely horrible showing of bad faith in FROM. Deception up until release day. Hell the Amazon DS 2 product still has the better looking screenshots. Blatant false advertising.

Exactly. We really can't just dismiss this as "bullshots on PC/next-gen lol" when people were playing a game that looked like that on PS3.

 

[Stone Ocean]

What is the torch mechanic that no longer works?

Were you supposed to light your way forward?

Yes, and the level design clearly reflects it.

Now there's like 2 areas where torches are actually needed. Otherwise the areas just have this dull gray lighting that gives the area the mood of a PS1 game.

 

[marrec]

Guess I'm a loon. I won't be buying the game unless they apologize and promise not to do it ever again. Granted I don't expect anyone else to boycott the game so I won't be going into other DS2 threads screaming my head off trying to get other people to boycott it as well.

You shouldn't expect a promise from them, that's pretty ridiculous as a consumer of Video Games to expect them to never change a game post reveal. A less ridiculous and childish demand is more transparency post release.

 

[Incendiary]

I know my two cents probably doesn't matter, but I'm playing the game on 360 and I think it still looks great. Could the lighting have been better? Absolutely, especially in comparison to trailers and such. But as a person who didn't play the beta and the only trailer/media I watched was the reveal trailer in 2012, the graphics are Souls-ian and I'm not disappointed at all.

If the lighting had to be sacrificed to put together a damn good game, I'm okay with it. Do I think a new-gen Souls game could do ridiculous things with lighting on a new engine? Yup and I'll be there day one to purchase it. But I'm completely satisfied with the current game too.

 

[Sephzilla]

I know my two cents probably doesn't matter, but I'm playing the game on 360 and I think it still looks great. Could the lighting have been better? Absolutely, especially in comparison to trailers and such. But as a person who didn't play the beta and the only trailer/media I watched was the reveal trailer in 2012, the graphics are Souls-ian and I'm not disappointed at all.

If the lighting had to be sacrificed to put together a damn good game, I'm okay with it. Do I think a new-gen Souls game could do ridiculous things with lighting on a new engine? Yup and I'll be there day one to purchase it. But I'm completely satisfied with the current game too.

I'm kind of on board with this guy. Honestly, I think the game still looks better than the previous two games even without some of the missing stuff. Would it have been nice to have the fancier stuff? Of course yes

 

[marrec]

Exactly. We really can't just dismiss this as "bullshots on PC/next-gen lol" when people were playing a game that looked like that on PS3.

Are these builds still in the wild? Were they ever in the wild?

 

[Kinsei]

You shouldn't expect a promise from them, that's pretty ridiculous as a consumer of Video Games to expect them to never change a game post reveal. A less ridiculous and childish demand is more transparency post release.

A promise to let people know when a game changes doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not asking them to always reach what they set out to do, but to let people know that they haven't reached it. I would have had no problems with the downgrade had they let people know about it pre-release.

I guess I should have clarified that in my post.

 

[Takamura-San]

Are these builds still in the wild? Were they ever in the wild?

I think they are talking about the beta.

 

[Vinterbird]

Are these builds still in the wild? Were they ever in the wild?

I played one of those builds at an press event on a standard debug PS3 unit.

 

[Havel]

I think they are talking about the beta.

They were also given out to the press until the end of Jan-start of Feb.

 

[zephervack]

Are these builds still in the wild? Were they ever in the wild?

I played one of those builds at an press event on a standard debug PS3 unit.

They were also given out to the press until the end of Jan-start of Feb.

Its important to note and someone correct me if im wrong, that the Reveal footage, the one with the amazing geometry was never public, as far as I know It was only shown to IGN through a video full of cuts.

So that version must likely is a tech demo and could have been easily been pre rendered to look like actual gameplay.

What people played at thread shows was the TGS-January demo seen in the OP, still had the lightning but the complex geometry, normal mapping and super detailed textures were gone.

 

[Joqu]

At best this campaign might make them reconsider putting the lightning in the PC version, I really hope so.

All they have to say is "Sorry we couldnt get it running like the reveal on PS3 and testing showed that the we couldnt mantain the lightning of the TGS and January Demos on the retail release because of performance issues, the reveal was running on PC like we said in the IGN reveal, so the PC version will look like that on release"

The end

Would everyone find that answer acceptable?

I know I would. This wouldn't have been nearly as much of a big deal to me if they had been transparent about this. That is, if the PC version remains unaffected by the downgrades. I wouldn't be able to run it at this very moment but knowing that a complete version of the game exists out there would at least give me something to look forward to.

Are these builds still in the wild? Were they ever in the wild?

I don't know if that build is still in the wild through other means but yes, people could register for the beta and that build did have the lightning intact.

 

[marrec]

A promise to let people know when a game changes doesn't seem unreasonable. I'm not asking them to always reach what they set out to do, but to let people know that they haven't reached it. I would have had no problems with the downgrade had they let people know about it pre-release.

I guess I should have clarified that in my post.

This has never been expected of developers in the past though... Dark Souls 2 may be the most recent extreme example of this that we have, but last minute graphical changes happen and are almost never communicated to the enthusiast press. It doesn't make much sense for From to keep everyone abreast of every graphical change that the game goes through because it's the most superficial change that can be made.

Now if they made some drastic mechanical change that'd be a bit different, but a press release two weeks from release saying "We shitted up the graphics a bit, HOPE YOU LIKE IT!" is never, ever, going to happen and is unreasonable to expect I believe; mostly because 90% of people buying it would never read that press release anyway.

I'm not saying you should stop boycotting, mind you, just letting you know what I think of your expectations.

 

[RK9039]

Yeah the network test was completely different. It looked really good, and you had to use a torch at some parts like the

Spoiler

skeleton cave.

Not sure if that's still in the game, would be interesting to see how different it is now.

 

[marrec]

I think they are talking about the beta.

I played one of those builds at an press event on a standard debug PS3 unit.

They were also given out to the press until the end of Jan-start of Feb.

Is there a difference between the Beta build and the Press build as of Jan?

Sorry for the questions, I just want to understand the specifics of these builds that were played on the PS3 you're talking about.

 

[Durante]

Its important to note and someone correct me if im wrong, that the Reveal footage, the one with the amazing geometry was never public, as far as I know It was only shown to IGN through a video full of cuts.

So that version must likely is a tech demo and could have been easily been pre rendered to look like actual gameplay.

What people played at thread shows was the TGS-January demo seen in the OP, still had the lightning but the complex geometry, normal mapping and super detailed textures were gone.

I really don't think the initial footage was offline rendered, too many artifacts for that. It was clearly rendered in realtime (or at least some approximation of it), but also clearly not on a last-gen console.

 

[Kai Dracon]

What is the torch mechanic that no longer works?

Were you supposed to light your way forward?

It's actually rather involved. There are braziers strategically placed through the game zones. They stay permanently lit once ignited. You have a limited supply of torches. Torches can be lit at bonfires and lit braziers.

The idea is to gradually push forward and light braziers to make the game world safer over time - and to light key braziers that will allow you to light your torch in remote areas, either to see, fend off light-sensitive enemies, or make a run past danger to ignite another remotely placed brazier. For instance, a brazier might be temptingly placed past a tough enemy between the bonfire and brazier.

If you put away a lit torch to equip a shield, it goes out. So while exploring with a torch, trying to make it to the next brazier, you cannot block. This mechanic still works in some areas of the game! But it's heavily nerfed in others, made redundant or entirely useless. It was intended to be a core part of the game's mood - adding more of a survival horror element than Dark Souls already possessed.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Subscribed for the hashtags.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

This has never been expected of developers in the past though... Dark Souls 2 may be the most recent extreme example of this that we have, but last minute graphical changes happen and are almost never communicated to the enthusiast press. It doesn't make much sense for From to keep everyone abreast of every graphical change that the game goes through because it's the most superficial change that can be made.

Now if they made some drastic mechanical change that'd be a bit different, but a press release two weeks from release saying "We shitted up the graphics a bit, HOPE YOU LIKE IT!" is never, ever, going to happen and is unreasonable to expect I believe; mostly because 90% of people buying it would never read that press release anyway.

I'm not saying you should stop boycotting, mind you, just letting you know what I think of your expectations.

This wasn't a last minute change to save performance. You don't redo all your lighting, change textures, remove geometry and change shaders in the last month of development.

 

[Havel]

Is there a difference between the Beta build and the Press build as of Jan?

Sorry for the questions, I just want to understand the specifics of these builds that were played on the PS3 you're talking about.

From what I have seen, they are the same build.

 

[Bedlam]

Well not that contrast-y though, it's completely different. I'm also not basing this on just that gif comparison by the way. Watching a video of the TGS demo should make the differences more apparent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v-xM2tzljA

Well okay. I can't wait until I reach the network test area and see for myself if they brightened up the pitch black caves there as well. And if they did, that'd mean that the whole "brighten up" thing was a design decision, probably based on "too dark!" feedback from the network test. And therefore, it's likely going to be that way on PC as well.

I do hope that the PC version at least has dynamic shadows for all direct light sources. It's kind of weird to have them in some places but not in others. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[Narroo]

This.

Wait, have you seen the PC port of Dark Souls 1?

 

[marrec]

This wasn't a last minute change to save performance. You don't redo all your lighting, change textures, remove geometry and change shaders in the last month of development.

I don't know what that has to do with an expectation of transparency at the level he was talking about. It's simply unprecedented.

From what I have seen, they are the same build.

That's interesting... so the pre-lighting downgrade build of the game could still be out in the wild then? It would be possible to have a direct feed comparison?

 

[aeolist]

i can get that people are totally happy with dark souls 2 as is, hell i'll probably buy the pc version at some point

but the idea that this sort of thing doesn't matter is ludicrous. they have screenshots on amazon that are not from the actual shipping retail product. they are advertising a game that doesn't exist.

how is that in any way OK?

 

[Kinsei]

This has never been expected of developers in the past though... Dark Souls 2 may be the most recent extreme example of this that we have, but last minute graphical changes happen and are almost never communicated to the enthusiast press. It doesn't make much sense for From to keep everyone abreast of every graphical change that the game goes through because it's the most superficial change that can be made.

Now if they made some drastic mechanical change that'd be a bit different, but a press release two weeks from release saying "We shitted up the graphics a bit, HOPE YOU LIKE IT!" is never, ever, going to happen and is unreasonable to expect I believe; mostly because 90% of people buying it would never read that press release anyway.

I'm not saying you should stop boycotting, mind you, just letting you know what I think of your expectations.

I'd say this was a pretty big mechanical change. I was personally really looking forward to the torch mechanic. Now I'm sure the game is still amazing and I'm glad that it seems as though everyone on gaf who bought the game is enjoying it, but I just feel like this was a really scummy thing to do.

I'm probably being really irrational but that's just the way I feel. Like I said before I don't expect anyone else to agree with me. Honestly I just want them to apologize so I can buy the game with a clean conscience.

 

[jacksepticeye]

i can get that people are totally happy with dark souls 2 as is, hell i'll probably buy the pc version at some point

but the idea that this sort of thing doesn't matter is ludicrous. they have screenshots on amazon that are not from the actual shipping retail product. they are advertising a game that doesn't exist.

how is that in any way OK?

That's what a lot of people aren't getting either. They think people are just complaining about graphics

 

[mclem]

If anyone wants to know why publishers/devs don't like showing off games early in development, see this thread.

Devs don't. Publishers do.

Devs don't because it's nice to have the capability to change things if necessary without a backlash (this is case in point!). Many devs - I certainly was one - also don't like the vertical slice approach because to do so requires making a lot of content extremely polished when the foundation and guarantees aren't there to ensure that it can remain intact in the long run; if you don't show it early, you can build up a much stronger foundation to build the game on - you won't have something that looks acceptable as rapidly, but when it *does* come together, it'll be a stronger product than the vertical sliced version.

Publishers do because a reveal is a useful tool; it can be used to generate hype and build interest. It can also be used to gauge interest, which is the sort of information used to determine marketing budgets and (if necessary) extra funding for extra features.

 

[Joqu]

I don't know what that has to do with an expectation of transparency at the level he was talking about. It's simply unprecedented.



That's interesting... so the pre-lighting downgrade build of the game could still be out in the wild then? It would be possible to have a direct feed comparison?

It was a network test so it probably wouldn't work anymore would it? I don't know much about PS3 homebrew to be fair but I doubt anyone thought about keeping the thing around, if that's even possible.

 

[NeededSleep]

I think im more upset at the new crappy combat/control mechanics than the downgrade in visuals

 

[Durante]

This wasn't a last minute change to save performance. You don't redo all your lighting, change textures, remove geometry and change shaders in the last month of development.

On the other hand, there are areas which clearly weren't completely redone, but are still designed for darkness and now uniformly illuminated by a strong (last minute?) ambient light term. You can tell that they were designed not to be as generally visible as they are in the final version both by the way they are textured and by how enemies spawn.

Wait, have you seen the PC port of Dark Souls 1?

This one?

 

[Dhuie]

Can't we let cheap pvp builds divide us not cheap dev techniques

I kid I kid


When did the lock on change back to red ? In the gifs its blue is that for a reason ?

The load screen on PS3 shows the blue lockon spinning but in game its red. Am i missing a reason for it ie, covenants, co op etc.