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#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
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Garcia
Member
Yep, from beginning to end actually.
I'll just share some examples of how those technical problems got in the way and how they negatively affected my experience:
Input lag:
I'm in the middle of a boss fight. My main weapon breaks and I didn't equip a secondary weapon because of the tight equipment load I'm dealing with. The only option is to lock-on, circle around while I browse my inventory in order to quickly switch swords. "I'm sorry, were you in a hurry? (says game)", you have to wait 4 seconds before the inventory decides to show up.
This is something that happened to me a lot of times, both during solo and co-op runs.
Audio lag:
One of the most exciting battles for me was the
Executioner's Chariot
(I'm an audio guy, so the constant out of syncing felt like the game showing the middle finger every time).
Gameplay lag.
Excruciatingly long battle against
The Lost Sinner
Menu Lag + Loading times:
Always, constantly getting in the way whenever you want to level up (SL 145 here). Imagine the fun!
To me, having to play through the disc version was a test of patience. I sincerely can't remember any other game that put through such an ordeal. Very unfortunate because I had a blast during Co-op.
knerlington
Banned
Dark souls is linear. While you can move between certain areas freely the areas are very restricted in the way you move through them. You do know that while you're not watching at a certain direction in Dark Souls (and pretty much every other game where you can control the camera freely) most of that particular area is not rendered. Just like God of War where only things that are or are about to be visible for the player is. So yeah it is a fair comparison. Only difference here is that it's easier to make sure that there is no texture glitches with just one viewpoint.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
By people that have no idea of graphics technology. Kameo had thousands of particles on screen, geometry instancing, interactive water, day and night cycle, parallax mapping...
What does DS2 have? One shadow casting light and the framerate suffers. Amazing.
You can list buzz words all day mate, the game still looked like garbage.
DSII, despite occasional hiccups, looks pretty good. Not Naugty Dog good, but pretty darn good nonetheless.
Of course how good DSII looks is not the issue, and you're distracting from your own cause with that baseless complaint.
But the shaders in Kameo are considerably more simple though, plus you also have to consider the complexity of lighting too (not saying Dark Souls is great here but compared to Kameo, it appears more complex). And there's the animation as well.
Kameo was essentially an Xbox game that got treated with some modern features when they decided to make it for 360 instead. It is why you saw parallax mapping in early 360 games and object motion blur in Perfect Dark Zero, and then these just disappeared for the next few years from games, the games released at start were not complex enough especially in terms of lighting and animations so they had the liberty of being generous with regards to adding some features.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Art vs tech. You confuse aesthetics with technology. And it is part of my argument. People claiming that PS3 and XB360 can't handle the TGS demos and therefor cuts had to be made are proven wrong by showing that even a 2005 game had more advanced technology and ran better.
On the contrary. DS2 shaders are simpler than Kameo's. Sometimes the game almost look fullbright due to that. The lighting i DS2 is much simpler. Less light sources and it's mainly static unlike Kameo's that had a full day and night dynamic cycle. Animation in DS2 is badly implemented and its shown by all the sliding a simple running animation displays.
So I said this in the first page, and it still stands - it's exactly the answer they gave. What were you expecting?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
edit:dp
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
#YOULIED is much more approriate now given all he evidence and From statements. Even the back of box contains their lies.
Come on.
VS
Even with the worst screenshot of Kameo you can find we can see it has more advanced surface shaders than DS2.
Wait, you're fighting this hard to play down the scandal, but you say to "pick your battles" and "be less vitriolic"? You're in here saying people essentially can't have such a strong reaction to the downgrade. People feel wronged, but you go "no, you don't", and you're basically saying FROM get's a free pass because "well, technically, it said 'this product is subject to change', so therefore everything is as it should be.
But thanks again for the laugh at you saying one should pick ones battles, when you're the one fighting hardest against the fact that FROM did something wrong.
DrROBschiz
Member
Whatever man
All the evidence I am seeing from the Beta and all the 2014 previews are showing the retial version on broad daylight
The so called TGS smoking gun is starting to look more and more like a pre built demo showcasing the PC version. Maybe there was a mistake somewhere along the line but we had plenty of opportunities to see the console version in action before buying.
All the Media previews leading up to the console release look the damn same to me. The includes the Network Test
MMaRsu
Banned
Lalalandia
Member
Your positions have shifted all over the map in this thread and now you've landed on 'they showed these downgraded graphics before release, we all just somehow didn't notice' which has to be the least convincing argument yet. You don't see an issue fine but trying to pretend that those who are somehow deluded is doing you no favours.
Lalalandia
Member
GTFO with that weaksauce picture.
Come on.
If nothing else I'm way more interested in Kameo than I was before I came here, actually looks really nice. When it came out I was 600 in the PS3 hole and it was impossible to find after that near me but I might have to look again as I've developed a love for the 7/10 game with strong art direction of late
Hydranockz
Member
But all the review videos are the final build and they would have only come out in the few weeks before release.
DrROBschiz
Member
Why wouldn't my position shift as i sift through the evidence?
Plus the argument that all the media has been based on the PC version up until the Network test and 2014 Media Previews is looking more and more like the truth...
Not surprising given thats where the game was developed from the beginning.
And whether Namco was SPECIFIC about platforms during these demos of the prettiest version or guaranteed these visuals on anything outside of PC is still being debated though I think they should have clarified more from the get go....
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
That the excuse "PS3/XB360 couldn't handle the TGS demo" is bullshit.
DrROBschiz
Member
Maybe they could handle a tailored demo but not the full game
I dunno. Im not sure if the Demo was every fully detailed from a technical standpoint or specified in one way or the other.
Maybe they took a snippet from a PC build, made it run on PS3, and was just showcasing it.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
There are many games that look better than the TGS demo. Maybe FROM couldn't handle the task but that's a whole different reason.
The jury is still out on the PC version but considering the mix of pre and post downgrade pictures on the Steam page, the best prediction is that the PC version looks the same as in consoles, just with higher-res textures and a better framerate.
The menu lag doesn't happen to me (on PS3).
I mean, from time to time the item icons don't appear instantly, but it is only for a second. Never 4 seconds, that's crazy.
DrROBschiz
Member
And how are you qualified to say that, exactly?
http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/d...rk_souls_2_graphics_downgrade_complaints.html
What a joke.
"Resource management"
Is what they call it.
What a joke.
"Resource management"
Is what they call it.
I need like, a copy of Dave Lang's laugh concerning this matter, specifically to reply to ridiculous posts like this.
zephervack
Member
Cool that they linked to the PSN Access video saying that it doesnt explain that change.
No comment on the PC version either. : /
Hydranockz
Member
At what point does/should preview footage become 'locked in'? Software development is a pretty hectic enviornment with crunch happening a lot closer to launch than people probably think. What they showed off at TGS might have been a perfectly reachable goal in their plan until something happened that prevented them from running it in a stable manner. Is their biggest crime that they thought they could ship it with the lighting engine still in tact?
They pretty much came out and said that there are parts of the game that had to be dialled back so as to end up with a shippable product. Just about every dev in the world can empathise there. Sometimes things just don't work as a whole and features get cut or reduced. Perhaps the most poignant thing about all of this is that only a few years ago, this dialogue between consumers and devs wouldn't exist in such an instant manner so we would never have known what changes, if any, had to be made and just how quickly they can be made.
I'm not saying the game hasn't been downgraded because everyone can see that things got cut. I simply don't believe it was in any way malicious. Anyone who puts time and effort into a game or any software product for so long isn't going to make drastic changes to it right before launch unless they have to. I have worked in quality assurance. Sometimes you have to just have to roll back to a far safer build because the current build is too unstable.
I can understand the disappointment because I'm sure it's a shared feeling amongst us and the devs. I just don't see the need for the hate.
They pretty much came out and said that there are parts of the game that had to be dialled back so as to end up with a shippable product. Just about every dev in the world can empathise there. Sometimes things just don't work as a whole and features get cut or reduced. Perhaps the most poignant thing about all of this is that only a few years ago, this dialogue between consumers and devs wouldn't exist in such an instant manner so we would never have known what changes, if any, had to be made and just how quickly they can be made.
I'm not saying the game hasn't been downgraded because everyone can see that things got cut. I simply don't believe it was in any way malicious. Anyone who puts time and effort into a game or any software product for so long isn't going to make drastic changes to it right before launch unless they have to. I have worked in quality assurance. Sometimes you have to just have to roll back to a far safer build because the current build is too unstable.
I can understand the disappointment because I'm sure it's a shared feeling amongst us and the devs. I just don't see the need for the hate.
The hate, iif you want to call it that, comes from the fact that usually, you're made away of last minute changes.
The issue is, reviewers got copies with the debug build. The build with these lightings, and better textures. Most reviewers videos look like the footage we were expecting, and the reviews were MADE off these versions.
Then, non-press people got their versions, with unstable frame-rates, graphics looking NOTHING like what they had been shown.
So obviously people are going "Huh, what?"
I mean, this isn't a trailer from last year. We have reviews done weeks before release, based on graphics far superior.
http://youtu.be/A3MdOBH-jDc
The issue is, reviewers got copies with the debug build. The build with these lightings, and better textures. Most reviewers videos look like the footage we were expecting, and the reviews were MADE off these versions.
Then, non-press people got their versions, with unstable frame-rates, graphics looking NOTHING like what they had been shown.
So obviously people are going "Huh, what?"
I mean, this isn't a trailer from last year. We have reviews done weeks before release, based on graphics far superior.
http://youtu.be/A3MdOBH-jDc
?? This isn't true.
"realm of resource management"...
so then why coded a new engine and sink tons of money on a new lighting tech just to drop it.
actually why they hired Blur Studio to make a very expensive CG trailer?
yeah sound like they just keep throwing lies at us.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
1) It already ran perfectly fine on PS3s as demonstrated by the TGS demo.
2) Plenty of other games push those machines far more than what was shown.
"But while From's response may be true, it doesn't explain why publisher Namco Bandai continued to promote early footage of Dark Souls 2 as PS3 "gameplay" footage just six weeks before the game's release, or why the PS3 beta allegedly contained higher quality assets."
At least one site gets it.
Lalalandia
Member
Touché
Then they really have some explaining to do as they were pushing the 'running on a PS3' argument pretty hard at many previews with the better lighting what with having PS3s there, a 'faked' XMB (see Dark10x's post) and the DS3. Whether any of the demo/builds/slices were running on a PC is not the point though, at some point they had a build for 360/PS3 that did not have that lighting but they chose not to make that clear before release. In fact you can still see that footage at multiple places advertising the 360/PS3 and we only have a forlorn hope that the Steam page has representative media for the PC version.
I can think of a lot of reasons why this wasn't communicated but none of them reflect well on FROM soft or Namco Bandai.
Hydranockz
Member
The review footage I'm seen certainly seems to be of the same build that was released. IGN's review seems to have it. Brad from Giant Bomb said that they had the release build.
DrROBschiz
Member
Check this out
Two Previews, Both in January. I am assuming something went wrong. One Clearly looks like TGS and The other clearly looks like retail
IGN Gameplay Preview Jan 30th https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlPl6Cfe7c
Playstation Access Jan 29th https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3MdOBH-jDc
False advertising or preview mixup?
Reallink
Member
Come on.
That shot is from the open world over world designed to house large scale battles with hundreds if not thousands of trolls/goblins on screen at once. You literally could not have posted a more tilted example to suite your argument.
phantomspiker
Member
Clearly a mixup, but people are going to keep linking that Playstation Access video as proof of From/Namco's deception.
Keep pressuring these guys on Twitter, for some answers. I set up a new message for everyone to retweet, or create your own.
https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/446344154788806656
https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/446344154788806656
Still pretty pathetic that most of VG sites ignored this entire false marketing case and didn't cover it at all.
we -forums/twitter campaign- managed to get a comment from From (a useless one and they keep lying but still it count) yet these VG sites still putting their heads under the dirt and some even were defending it. VG sites and journalists should feel ashamed of themselves.
Garcia
Member
Keep pressuring these guys on Twitter, for some answers. I set up a new message for everyone to retweet, or create your own.
https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/446344154788806656
Done.
DrROBschiz
Member
Thats what I am saying
Its looking like there is a very clear distinction between the PC and Console versions
Outside of promotional mixups.... whether you believe they were intentional or not.
We knew the fidelity of the Console version as early as January (or earlier if you count the beta)
Polioliolio
Member
Okay. They openly acknowledge the downgrades and give a reason.. alright. That's cool I suppose, though utterly vague.
My problem is that they didn't just advertise a month or so ago a game that wasn't representative of the final product, but they continue to false advertise by coupling their product with screenshots from a game you aren't getting. That's not cool. The game as is doesn't look so bad, so could you please take some new screens and put those on the back of the game case instead?
My problem is that they didn't just advertise a month or so ago a game that wasn't representative of the final product, but they continue to false advertise by coupling their product with screenshots from a game you aren't getting. That's not cool. The game as is doesn't look so bad, so could you please take some new screens and put those on the back of the game case instead?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
The mixup isn't between PC and consoles, but between pre-downgrade and post-downgrade footage.
DrROBschiz
Member
But we haven't seen the PC version outside of some screenshots since TGS
When you've seen over 100 PS3 releases, I'd say you're qualified to form a valid opinion about what seems possible for a PS3 game to look like and what not.
Given the history of the developer (the PC version of Dark souls not supporting resolutions above 720p or framerate above 30fps) it's most likely lack of time for optimalisation and lack of technical know-how that forced these downgrades, not hardware capabilities.
It's pretty obvious that the question didn't even reach actual game developers.
As long the question can't even REACH them you can't expect an answer, even less an honest one.
That one we got is merely businessman/lawyer speech, of the kind they can produce without even looking into the issue. It's like a robot writing an automatic response, you've gotta get it for the garbage it is.
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