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[mxgt]

Heavy Rain has been sitting on my shelf for over a year now. Played through it once, will never play it again. I should really sell it or trade it in but the PAL limited edition has a sexy box.

 

[M°°nblade]

How can you bond and take seriously a (supposedly realistic) story, when shit like this happens?

The same way I bond with an opera play. I can look beyond visual representations that are limited because of the medium.

 

[KarmaCow]

Half the game? Whats the other half?

It's more than a script.

And 93% of all percentages are made up.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

If you crutch on storytelling more, expect it to come under greater scrutiny. Simple as that. Since there nothing to be confused with deep gameplay or puzzles to test your brain going on in HR, the experience lives and dies by the storytelling. There are some well-executed sequences, but that, IMO, doesn't buoy the entire product if you cannot buy into the story and characters they've made the central attraction of the title.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The same way I bond with an opera play. I can look beyond visual representations that are limited because of the medium.

no. no, you didn't.


no you didn't

 

[Treefingers]

The same way I bond with an opera play. I can look beyond visual representations that are limited because of the medium.

Nothing about the medium limits David Cage from writing a good story.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

hah the haters are getting ridiculous. "fails at being Saw"? ... umm ok. there's maybe 1-3 scenes in the entire game that might resemble something from Saw, doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, I honestly don't get the Saw thing. Maybe when there's a Heavy Rain 2/3/4/5/6 that reveals that the Origami is still alive and kidnapping kids and then you play through practically the same exact story only with a different dad.

why are people so incredibly critical of the game's faults? if you think the story sucked, try comparing it to almost any other game... yeah. most games have complete childish tripe as stories or none at all. at least this game tried.

I doubt most games try to have trite, senseless bullshit for stories. The difference between those and this is 1) how much heavy rain got hyped for its story and 2) the insistence by every other game journalist that it's moving game narratives forward.

if you think a person has to have bad taste to enjoy this game and even its story, you're a massive egotistical prick.

also, i feel like many are hating just because they don't like David Cage's personality. who gives a fuck? he's a nobody and i don't care if he drowns kittens, his personality has nothing to do with the game's overall quality.

[hypocrite]People should stop generalizing those who like heavy rain. *btw I think people who dislike heavy rain secretly don't have any real reason to, they're just jerks*.[/hypocrite]

David Cage isn't the reason people dislike Heavy Rain, but it sure is the reason they're so vocal.

YES there were red herrings that didn't make sense etc, but you don't have to let them ruin the whole game for you. it's called suspension of disbelief, try it. i could enjoy the game purely for the atmosphere, visuals and music.

Suspension of disbelief doesn't apply to plotholes and lack of internal consistency.

If a fantasy setting has magic and you can accept that, that is suspension.

If the rules of magic do not follow any laws that might have been established earlier, that is a plot hole.

The same way I bond with an opera play. I can look beyond visual representations that are limited because of the medium.

But the game isn't limited by it's medium. It's limited because Cage needed a way for Ethan to escape and decided to do it by making the cops morons.

 

[RedSwirl]

I'm pretty sure Cage actually admitted somewhere that not using American voice actors in an American setting was a mistake. Also, I feel like we could see great things if Quantic Dream did a collab with better writers.

Heavy Rain may not have succeeded in everything it attempted, but it did at least cause me to buy into the storyline, which is something I can't say for probably 95% of the video games I've played over the last 20 years. That's an achievement.

That said, I do wish HR would have been a bit less ambitious and just been a straight adventure game (or even Visual Novel) with current-gen graphics and production values. That's what I really wanna see one day.

 

[bender]

The voice acting and story aren't really defensible but I really want to see more adventure games structured like Heavy Rain. Something about performing mundane tasks in the first few hours really drew me into its world. It's too bad the story unfolded like it did. Though, I can't say I'm surprised after suffering through the later sections of Indigo Prophecy.

 

[M°°nblade]

Nothing about the medium limits David Cage from writing a good story.

True, which is what I criticized in my first post. But I was talking about the clumsy looking action scenes.

But the game isn't limited by it's medium. It's limited because Cage needed a way for Ethan to escape and decided to do it by making the cops morons.

The cops aren't morons. It's just a case of limited visual representation of an escape.

 

[RedSwirl]

The voice acting and story aren't really defensible but I really want to see more adventure games structured like Heavy Rain. Something about performing mundane tasks in the first few hours really drew me into the the its world. It's too bad the story unfolded like it did. Though, I can't say I'm surprised after suffering through the later sections of Indigo Prophecy.

That's what I'm sayin' man! It gave gravity to the rest of the shit in the game. Other games have done this and succeeded too.

As for Indigo/Fahrenheit, to Cage's defense, he didn't really get to finish that game. It was gonna be some kind of episodic series but due to constraints he was forced to bolt the end of the whole series onto the end of the first chapter.

 

[To Far Away Times]

As if that means anything.

Most of the negative uservotes are from Xbox 360 fanboys.

LittleBigPlanet:

Critic rating: 95
User rating: 65

Do you really believe LittleBigPlanet is a bad game?

Same for the 360 side

Halo Reach:

Critic rating: 91
User rating: 74


For the record, I liked Heavy Rain, I give it a 8/10.

Little Big Planet should probably be somewhere around the mid to high 80's. Its a wonderfully charming game but the controls/physics aren't quite up to par with some of the classic platformers of yesteryear.

The Halo Reach user rating is spot on.

 

[Kusagari]

As if that means anything.

Most of the negative uservotes are from Xbox 360 fanboys.

LittleBigPlanet:

Critic rating: 95
User rating: 65

Do you really believe LittleBigPlanet is a bad game?

Yes. Media Molecule was too busy making a bunch of level options to focus on the 'game' part which frankly is mediocre at best. I agree with the user ratings.

 

[Riposte]

Fun fact: Fictional stories in general are "trite". The reason people like fictional novels and movies is because of HOW they are told. That is what stimulates them the most. You can have the same story and depending on the director these two movies can be radically different in value. Same applies to videogame stories, except how you play them is much more dominating and how you tell a story must be rearranged around that. Get too ambitious and you get an abomination. Moreover if you are also late to the party of visual novels, adventure games, and what not, you get Heavy Rain.

EDIT: So the horribly-told story isn't the worst thing about Heavy Rain. Not by a long shot. However, it makes for perfect ammo against the pretentious.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

The voice acting and story aren't really defensible but I really want to see more adventure games structured like Heavy Rain. Something about performing mundane tasks in the first few hours really drew me into its world. It's too bad the story unfolded like it did. Though, I can't say I'm surprised after suffering through the later sections of Indigo Prophecy.

If they wanted to make the mundane stuff more meaningful they could have devoted more of it to Ethan interacting with his family. Like the stuff with him playing with his kids in their backyard.

Oh and I don't even think we got to see Jason's party, just the prep for it.

 

[M°°nblade]

if you think a person has to have bad taste to enjoy this game and even its story, you're a massive egotistical prick.

I liked heavy rain. But hey, gaf told me that just because I'm either 13 or need help. Also I'm ignorant.

Awesome.




Still like Heavy rain though.

 

[Prince of Space]

why are people so incredibly critical of the game's faults? if you think the story sucked, try comparing it to almost any other game... yeah.

Because Heavy Rain's #1 selling point is its story, and just about every aspect of that story is woefully bad.

David Cage reminds me of Dennis Dyack. The success which they achieve is primarily a function of the ignorance of the people they exploit. Dyack has convinced the Canadian business community that Silicon Knights should keep getting propped up by grants because the games industry is now worth billions, but if the people he was approaching had any context about the industry they would realise that while that may be true, his studio is hardly a part of that success.

In much the same way, Cage has convinced gamers with no context of what literature and storytelling are about that he's a master of it, and convinced non-gamers with no context of what games are about that he's a master of game design too. It's pretty sad but it says more about the desperate desire for validation of their hobby as "adult" that so many gamers line up to defend the stream of literary-faeces which he pours into their waiting mouths.

Spot on.

 

[Riposte]

I liked heavy rain. But hey, gaf told me that just because I'm either 13 or need help. Also I'm ignorant.

Awesome.




Still like Heavy rain though.

You don't need bad taste to be completely swayed by novelty. Simply a lack of introspection.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The cops aren't morons. It's just a case of limited visual representation of an escape.

So when they had a helicopter and then it disappeared while Ethan hijacking a taxi, that wasn't moronic?

Or when they let Madison walk into an abandoned building where a suspected serial killer was, and never bothered to cover the back door at all? Or when they ran into a subway (a closed transportation system with a map of all possible exits), and the cops apparently had no idea how to put out a PSA about a bleeding man being dragged around by a woman?

 

[The Librarian]

Well, I guess this proves David Cage is full of himself.

 

[Peff]

Or when they let Madison walk into an abandoned building where a suspected serial killer was

Hey, maybe she lives there.

 

[bender]

That's what I'm sayin' man! It gave gravity to the rest of the shit in the game. Other games have done this and succeeded too.

As for Indigo/Fahrenheit, to Cage's defense, he didn't really get to finish that game. It was gonna be some kind of episodic series but due to constraints he was forced to bolt the end of the whole series onto the end of the first chapter.

Sorry, I butchered that sentence. Twas a long week.

What other games have done this? I'm genuinely curious.

Rushed or not for Indigo, I've got low expectations for whatever Quantic Dream produces from a narrative standpoint. I know that comes off really negative. I still enjoyed both games but I'm a sucker for the adventure genre.

If they wanted to make the mundane stuff more meaningful they could have devoted more of it to Ethan interacting with his family. Like the stuff with him playing with his kids in their backyard.

Oh and I don't even think we got to see Jason's party, just the prep for it.

They should have just stuck with that theme throughout the game. It seemed like as the game progressed, there were less and less activities to get distracted by.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

The cops aren't morons. It's just a case of limited visual representation of an escape.

You mean that if Cage had the technology he'd be able to have cops immediately catch Ethan after he jumps off the roof due to realizing that they should have surrounded the building instead of piling onto the roof?

Or that the street surrounding the motel probably should have been blockaded specifically so civilians that wouldn't get hurt/get their vehicle stolen by a possible suspect?

Or that the helicopter pilot would have attempted to track Ethan?


Man, I can't wait for next gen. We'll finally have logical characters.

 

[szaromir]

Little Big Planet should probably be somewhere around the mid to high 80's. Its a wonderfully charming game but the controls/physics aren't quite up to par with some of the classic platformers of yesteryear.

The Halo Reach user rating is spot on.

If the best shooter in the last few years deserves only 74 rating, I don't want to know what other games in the genre should get.

 

[Riposte]

I'm a sucker for the adventure genre.

Heavy Rain is a very bad adventure game to the point of almost not being one. How does it rank?

 

[M°°nblade]

So when they had a helicopter and then it disappeared while Ethan hijacking a taxi, that wasn't moronic?

Or when they let Madison walk into an abandoned building where a suspected serial killer was, and never bothered to cover the back door at all? Or when they ran into a subway (a closed transportation system with a map of all possible exits), and the cops apparently had no idea how to put out a PSA about a bleeding man being dragged around by a woman?

Actually, I didn't even notice the damn helicopter until now. Even though I had to do that escape scene multiple times to get all the different endings for my platinum trophy. But that's probably because I was too busy playing and enjoying the game instead of analysing and nitpicking every minute of heavy rain's 8 hour content.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Well, I guess this proves David Cage is full of himself.

Its posts like these that the OP wanted with his bullshit sensationalistic thread title and post contents. Read the damn quote and then make up your mind about what he's ACTUALLY talking about.

Them:"What’s next for you? Will you continue to try and push the barriers of interactive storytelling or build more bridges in other genres?"

Cage: "We want to build on what we have discovered with Heavy Rain.

"We created the genre. We own the genre, and we want to show that Heavy Rain was not a coincidence or a lucky shot - that it was really something that makes sense and that we can build on.

"But at the same time I didn’t want to make a sequel. I made that very clear before knowing whether the game would be a success or a failure, because I want to show that it’s really a genre. Which means that you can use a similar drama to tell any type of story in any genre and in any style.

"So, we are going to explore different directions. Still very dark, still for adults, but completely different from Heavy Rain. We want to satisfy our fans, but we want to surprise them too. That’s our challenge."

Tell me, does that sound like a man who's claiming ownership of the interactive entertainment GENRE, or of the methods and gameplay mechanics that were developed for Heavy Rain, and what Cage has said over and over in multiple interviews about how he believes that their gameplay framework could apply to a multitude of story genres.

It also sounds like he had a few drinks.

 

[RedSwirl]

Sorry, I butchered that sentence. Twas a long week.

What other games have done this? I'm genuinely curious.

Off the top of my head right now I can just say Persona 3 and Persona 4. In my mind those games are the perfect video game representation of those Saturday morning "high school student by day, super hero by night" shows, and they made the socialization at least as engaging as the combat. Furthermore, when serious shit did start going down in those games, I actually felt worried about what might happen because you actually got invested in the world.

 

[HK-47]

True, which is what I criticized in my first post. But I was talking about the clumsy looking action scenes.


The cops aren't morons. It's just a case of limited visual representation of an escape.

They are morons. They dont even bother surrounding the hotel of a suspected serial killer so he can just walk away and steal a taxi.

 

[ProtomanNeo]

"Legacy of Kain"/"Soul Reaver".

 

[bender]

Heavy Rain is a very bad adventure game to the point of almost not being one. How does it rank?

It's trying to be a choose your own adventure book and I like that idea even if the execution isn't the greatest. The story is probably as equally poor as what you'd find in those books though the target audience is rather different. I'm not sure why you wouldn't classify it as an adventure game?

As far as ranking Heavy Rain, I'd rather not. I'm rather partial to Sierra's Quest series pre-mouse support. It's what I grew up on.

Off the top of my head right now I can just say Persona 3 and Persona 4. In my mind those games are the perfect video game representation of those Saturday morning "high school student by day, super hero by night" shows, and they made the socialization at least as engaging as the combat. Furthermore, when serious shit did start going down in those games, I actually felt worried about what might happen because you actually got invested in the world.

Thanks! I've got PES3 FES, Portable, and Persona 4. Now I just need to pick one to play and find the time to play through one.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Actually, I didn't even notice the damn helicopter until now. Even though I had to do that escape scene multiple times to get all the different endings for my platinum trophy. But that's probably because I was too busy playing and enjoying the game instead of analysing and nitpicking every minute of heavy rain's 8 hour content.

Yeah, the part where the camera shows a helicopter and Ethan looking up at the spotlight while trapped is a unnoticeable pixel small detail, and in no way is part of a huge pattern of David Cage's sloppy writing.

Or how it becomes immediately apparent that the fathers of many, if not most, of the OK's victims disappeared, and the police apparently think nothing of it. UGH, who cares about logic and motivations or characters or coherent plot, I'm having too much fun watching Madison nurse Ethan back to health and fall in love with him like a good little inferior girl.


but whatevs bro i was just enjoying this turd by ignoring how much it stinks, thinkin is fo fools

 

[viewtifulsub]

Indigo Prophecy was a crime against humanity, and i'm still unsure why Cage's game designer license has yet to be annulled. I was smart enough not to fooled twice by him with Heavy Rain; and it seems i was right.


Also; this is not the first time his run his mouth off about his bullshit

The use of The Tempest was merely a brief reference to the general work of William Shakespeare, of which I, like the player's avatar, Lucas Kane, am a great fan. It is a nod to a colleague and peer in the art of drama, more than a direct connection between the two works.

Really?
He compares himself as peer to fucking William Shakespeare with his shitactular swiss cheese fanfiction?

Fuck David Cage.
Fuck him in the ass.

 

[To Far Away Times]

If the best shooter in the last few years deserves only 74 rating, I don't want to know what other games in the genre should get.

For a game with four sequels, all of which have only made minor changes and failed to live up to the original game, yeah, I think that's a fair score.

 

[M°°nblade]

They are morons. They dont even bother surrounding the hotel of a suspected serial killer so he can just walk away and steal a taxi.

It's as moronic as these guys fencing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_RVhCy4LFM

The point is that the position of the cops doesn't matter to me, at all. Heavy rain, just like opera play is not a movie and shouldn't be measured by it's standards. Just like hollywood movies aren't measured by bollywood standards.

 

[The Librarian]

Its posts like these that the OP wanted with his bullshit sensationalistic thread title and post contents. Read the damn quote and then make up your mind about what he's ACTUALLY talking about.

You mad, man. Chill out.

 

[Orayn]

No, Dave. You are the king of prettied up adventure games with unfavorable hype-to-substance ratios.
Quantic Dream needs to spend more on developing their games and less on advertizing and trying to convince everyone that they're doing something revolutionary. If a game is really that good, it'll speak for itself. See: Demon's Souls

 

[Fimbulvetr]

It's as moronic as these guys fencing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_RVhCy4LFM

The point is that the position of the cops doesn't matter to me, at all. Heavy rain, just like opera play is not a movie and shouldn't be measured by it's standards. Just like hollywood movies aren't measured by bollywood standards.

But the positioning of all of the cops, the stupid helicopter, and the one taxi driver on the road who decides to drive down the same street as a police raid are due to illogical reasoning. It was an oversight on the part of the writers.

While the actors' lack of fencing prowess is because very few actors are trained fencers and try to imitate cheesy adventure movies.

The difference? One of them breaks suspension of disbelief; the other can be rationalized.

 

[cj_iwakura]

David Cage owes his entire business to Digital Pictures.


Night Trap baby!

 

[J-Rock]

We Own The Interactive Comedy Genre

Fixed.

 

[Massa]

I think the user ratings are more fair and reflective in all three cases than the critical ratings.

Would be a huge coincidence then that the user score matches with your opinion - if I remember right LBP and Gears of War 2 got a lot of negative feedback back in 2008 based on butthurt fanboys having a mini war of their own.

 

[Ellis Kim]

You mad, man. Chill out.

The guy makes a thread that is complete and total flame bait, with an opening post reading:

That's a pretty ballsy claim. I think it's complete bullshit. I'd like to dedicate this thread to every wrong thing David Cage has ever said, starting with this one.

What kind of response do you expect, if not those like yours and so many others. The OP doesn't even have the courtesy to post the full quote.

 

[tiff]

But the positioning of all of the cops, the stupid helicopter, and the one taxi driver on the road who decides to drive down the same street as a police raid are due to illogical reasoning. It was an oversight on the part of the writers.

While the actors' lack of fencing prowess is because very few actors are trained fencers and try to imitate cheesy adventure movies.

The difference? One of them breaks suspension of disbelief; the other can be rationalized.

I don't really see how explaining why actors can't fence/David Cage can't write preserves the suspension of disbelief in either case.

 

[Htown]

I haven't played Heavy Rain, but I did play Indigo Prophecy. Maybe HR was better (from the clips posted here it doesn't look like it), but the story in IP was pretty much garbage. Much worse than the usual game story, actually, though it was better "acted".

You can't claim ownership of the interactive storytelling genre when there are ten year old indie text adventure games that told stories better than yours.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I don't really see how explaining why actors can't fence/David Cage can't write preserves the suspension of disbelief in either case.

The former has nothing to do with writing.

When stage actors make poor attempts at fight scenes you aren't questioning them in-character, like you are the cops in Heavy Rain who just made the dumbest decisions of all time when the plot needed them to. 'Cuz if the cops in Heavy Rain were not morons the story would have been over before it began(though, in their defense, this is partially due to the stupidity of other side characters, like the victims' parents who decide to hold onto evidence until Shelby comes around).

Also, modern video games aren't nearly as limited as stage plays.

 

[tiff]

When stage actors make poor attempts at fight scenes you aren't questioning them in-character, like you are the cops in Heavy Rain who just made the dumbest decisions of all time when the plot needed them to.

Sure, I'm just saying it probably has less to do with people understanding the limits of stage actors and more to do with it just not mattering much to them.

Goofy fighting is less unbelievable than police officers being completely unable to competently conduct police matters.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Sure, I'm just saying it probably has less to do with people understanding the limits of stage actors and more to do with it just not mattering much to them.

Ah okay, I didn't see what you meant at first.

 

[UrbanRats]

If that's not considered hype, I don't know what is.

Also, no one's defending the poor decision to use non-American actors for American roles, which I feel is the largest contributor to why Heavy Rain was jarring and annoying for some people.


You're begging the question. Don't try and dismiss someone's enjoyment and opinion of the game just because you don't agree.

No, see, what i'm saying is:
the critique, is not based on the hype, cause the story is bad regardless, but the hate, comes from the hype, and all the stupid build up Cage has done and the shit he continues to brag about.
-
I can't dismiss someone's enjoyment and i don't want to do it either, but i can ask how can he not find those things (which the game is full of) silly and so, how can he mantain the connection with the characters, sounds legitimate to me.

The same way I bond with an opera play. I can look beyond visual representations that are limited because of the medium.

I'm sorry, but the medium has nothing to do with it.
The problem is not in the imperfect mocap here, let's not kid ourselves.
This is a lack of artistic sensibility, needed to handle the scene with a bit of subtlety.
You are building a characters based drama, grounded with both feet in realism, and you put a scene like that in? I don't have to tell you that, a scene like that, would destroy ANY sense of credibility the story or the characters had, breaking the connection to the player.
Same with the stupid-ass scene with the pimp, which lack any sense of impect, because it's transformed into a parade of superfluous action crap.
Was it too difficult to have something a little dry, mature and serious? Go into the house of a man, point a gun at him, kill him or don't-- No, you had to have the cheesy chase with the shotgun, through the house, another silly scene to give some easy QTE thrills; but understand that, cause when you have less elements to play with, you gotta have some real talent to touch those strings.
People with talent, can give you tension right in the spine with just two dudes talking in room, while less talented folks, need to rely on these other tricks, which tend to fall short.

This is what i'm talking about, If you need to add this bullshit, to evoke some kind of cheap artificial emotions, i'm sorry, writing "mature stuff" is not your thing mate.
I'll repeat myself: You watch something like Revanche, and then tell me Heavy Rain is on the same level.
'Cause that's what a mature product looks like, to me.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

The only thing Heavy Rain owns at is cutscene direction and presentation - if there is one thing Cage has perfected, it's the feeling that you are watching a digitised version of a movie, or at least some very high budget television show. They way they craft the 'sets' and animate all of it is absolutely second to none.


Everything else about the game is utter shit.

 

[Juice]

In my eyes as long as he creates more games in the vein of Fahrenheit/Heavy Rain he can say whatever the fuck he wants.

Agreed. I totally understand the hate, but Farenheit/Heavy Rain represent everything I loved about adventure games. I just can't help myself