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[Nirolak]

He posted up this giant thread in the VIVE reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comme...out_virtual_reality_development/?compact=true

Highlights:

• RocketWerkz (the studio) made a game called Out of Ammo, which he says is one of the better selling VR games and is well above the studio's expectations.
• However, he notes that this has actually been incredibly unprofitable for studio and even adding features like drop-in co-op, while resulting in a sales bump, failed to increase sales long term and just made the game even more unprofitable.
• He says this was the result the studio expected given the market, and that they only made VR games because they had the money to cover the losses (and presumably wanted to try out the medium).
• The reason he's sharing this is that he's very upset that people on the reddit are attacking developers who take VR exclusivity agreements, because he says that's the only way most of those developers can actually afford to make VR games due to how small sales are.
• RocketWerkz itself did not take an exclusivity agreement. That had considered one, but it would only cover part of their budget vs. sales deficit.
• Dean Hall notes that neither he himself nor anyone he has talked to has ever gotten something from the purported Valve VR funding pool, so that this isn't a realistic option for most developers.
• He notes that, after their second VR game which is about to come out (it was originally going to be DLC for the first game, but got rather large), he's actually not interested in making another VR game as basically everyone on RocketWerks' VR team no longer wants to work on VR games. He said he's also heard this privately from several other VR developers, but that this is something no one seems publicly willing to mention at the moment. It's worth noting there's a lot of venture capital money for VR products right now, so if we take him as telling the truth, a lot of them might want to keep the door open if they can't find work on something else.
• He ends making another plea to the community to stop harassing developers on twitter and elsewhere over exclusivity agreements, because if they successfully convince developers to stop doing them, it's most likely to just result in them not making VR games since they can't afford to.
• He's also answering a bunch of questions people have in the thread and intends to do so again when it's morning in New Zealand.

 

[FlyinJ]

So, in essence:

We put a lot of money into doing VR development knowing we would lose it all. We lost it all because there weren't enough VR headsets out when we came out with our game. But that's fine, because we knew we were going to lose it all.

Our conclusion is VR development will not make any money, and no one wants to do it.

Got it, Dean.

 

[Sho Nuff]

They took a calculated risk that didn't pay off. That's business. Sounds very reasonable.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Surprised that releasing games for the same price as other games, but to an incredibly small audience, isn't working out for them.

VR features are cool as a feature in an already great standalone game like Alien: Isolation or something, but making a game from the ground up with VR in mind isn't going to be profitable until VR actually takes off.

He ends making another plea to the community to stop harassing developers on twitter and elsewhere over exclusivity agreements, because if they successfully convince developers to stop doing them, it's most likely to just result in them not making VR games since they can't afford to.

That's dumb as hell.

 

[Karish]

So, in essence:

We put a lot of money into doing VR development knowing we would lose it all. We lost it all because there weren't enough VR headsets out when we came out with our game. But that's fine, because we knew we were going to lose it all.

Our conclusion is VR development will not make any money, and no one wants to do it.

Got it, Dean.

Out of Ammo is one of the better selling VR titles. He is well-funded by Tencent currently. He is just being honest w/ no agenda.

 

[Visualante2]

having no obvious financial agenda doesn't mean there is no agenda.

 

[eot]

He needs to stay off reddit

 

[Aaron]

VR is a niche product and always will be a niche product. People saying it was the future didn't spend enough time with it. I had a Oculus DK2 and gave it away after a few months after that initial thrill wore off. It's going to be a long time before it's not too cumbersome for the casual player. Sony made the biggest knock into the mainstream, but once the games dry up for reasons he's mentioning, it'll become a situation similar to 3D in movies.

 

[Mifec]

So, in essence:

We put a lot of money into doing VR development knowing we would lose it all. We lost it all because there weren't enough VR headsets out when we came out with our game. But that's fine, because we knew we were going to lose it all.

Our conclusion is VR development will not make any money, and no one wants to do it.

Got it, Dean.

He's an incredibly incompetent scam artist.

 

[justsomeguy]

Surprised at people shooting the messenger here even with his history. Guy is telling it straight it seems, and combined with the story a while back about VR headset sales falling off a cliff, it doesn't paint the prettiest picture right now if we want a vibrant and sustainable VR ecosystem to exist.

I had some more time on an HTC vive today and while I loved the 20 minutes I had, I'm not dropping £1800+ to pat a robot dog on top of a mountain and shoot arrows at cartoon warriors. It's absolutely freaking awesome, but I'm going to rely on stealing goes on others' kit for now.

So the big question is how to address it... Are exclusivity money hats actually a necessary evil to fund development of titles? And the age old debate of what's the difference between moneyhat and a publisher part funding a game?

 

[TheMan]

The part about developers not wanting to support VR anymore is sad. The ol catch 22- small market for games because there aren't enough games because the market is too small- may prove difficult to break unless prices come down big time.

 

[ronaldthump]

he's right about one thing. People are trolls and idiots and if people are abusing developers over and pushing them out of a market where the margins are slim and killing off the platform - you just gotta wonder how they feel when their headset no longer gets games/support.

 

[ronaldthump]

VR is a niche product and always will be a niche product. People saying it was the future didn't spend enough time with it. I had a Oculus DK2 and gave it away after a few months after that initial thrill wore off. It's going to be a long time before it's not too cumbersome for the casual player. Sony made the biggest knock into the mainstream, but once the games dry up for reasons he's mentioning, it'll become a situation similar to 3D in movies.

My feeling is that the Rift didn't have as many "real" games as PSVR.

Hopefully PSVR will keep going. It's pretty incredible to be honest. The star wars demo is pretty amazing

 

[Jackpot]

If VR is indeed widely unprofitable due to install base, even with inventories sold out, I appreciate being informed on it.

 

[vermadas]

Oculus funding VR content is a great thing. We're getting a lot more quality content thanks to their investments. The problem has been what Oculus demands in return for these investments. Soft-locking content to their hardware is anti-consumer and goes against what PC gamers have come to expect on the platform. This is the console approach. There are other ways Oculus could encourage people to buy into their ecosystem.

So if you want to be angry about it, direct your ire at Oculus. I agree with Dean. Stop brigading the developers. They probably don't like exclusivity agreements and NDAs either. But the money has to come from somewhere. They are certainly unlikely to recoup their investments in the tiny VR market.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

Was the studio funded by his DayZ scam money?

 

[Comfort Jones]

He's an incredibly incompetent scam artist.

Are you saying this is part of a scam now?

 

[tokkun]

The problem cuts both ways. If early adopters feel like they are getting burned, they are less likely to recommend VR to others, making it harder to get that critical mass needed to make games profitable. Relying on platform-holder subsidies is clearly not sustainable.

The platform-holders are trying to capture market share on the assumption that the market will inevitably grow to a large size. But I think this is having the side effect of greatly slowing that growth. They do have the option of funding developers without requiring exclusivity.

 

[| Praxis |]

My feeling is that the Rift didn't have as many "real" games as PSVR.

Hopefully PSVR will keep going. It's pretty incredible to be honest. The star wars demo is pretty amazing

Wait a few months and see how you feel.

I said the exact same thing when I bought my Vive, then slowly the wow factor wore off and the only real enjoyment I got out of it was showing it to friends and family, then it sat unused for a couple of months because I just couldn't be bothered with VR after a long and stressful day at work and family life.

Not saying you'll follow the same trajectory, but I'm guessing a lot will.


Edit: quoted the wrong person.

 

[MaDKaT]

Disappointing to read but it will get better over time. Just need to hit a price point that the masses can get behind (along with easier to use hardware).

 

[collige]

I don't have a problem with developers keeping their lights on.

I do, however, have a problem with Oculus money-hatting devs into a development environment that is fundamentally anti-competitive. Furthermore, I think it's shortsighted in general for platform holders to encourage fragmentation of VR software when at this point the medium needs all the help it can get.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

This whole situation kind of sucks.

Developers can't recoup costs so they take exclusivity agreements.

Consumers rightfully get pissed when they find out their 600-800 dollar headset won't work with a game and would be forced to buy another 600-800 dollar headset to play it.

VR, no matter what developers or marketing says will always be understood as a peripheral not a platform. When you're trying to convince your already small audience that has the PC / space/ disposable income to buy into VR that they need the other headsetto play the game you are going to piss people off.

But on the other end developers literally can't afford to develop for VR without additional financing unless it's a cheap throw away project l which lowers the overall quality and appeal of VR.

It's messy.

 

[Aztechnology]

And so VR will rest on the backs of Exclusivity agreements and small time indie projects that people create in hope to garner attention. Is there a way to move the high end VR market in any tangible way? Who's going to be able to take the risk, or willing to eat losses in order to establish it? The game needs killer apps, which likely means AAA support. Given the numbers, who's going to bite that bullet?

VR is a big deal to me, I don't think it's quite there yet pricing wise or hardware wise. But I want to see it succeed.

 

[archangelmorph]

This guys isn't a business person...

Want to know how to monetise a small market of enthusiasts?

Long tail product support and IAP...

Build a business on high quality content, around a niche audience and recurring sales.

This shit is like "Games Business 101"

 

[dave is ok]

Is DayZ finished yet?

 

[Archaix]

Is DayZ finished yet?

He ditched that long before it was even supposed to be finished.

(also, no, it is not)

 

[Trace]

I can't listen to anything Dean Hall says with a straight face anymore. He got lucky with DayZ, dropped it as soon as he had enough cash, and has gone around proving he has no ability to finish projects.

I don't expect DayZ or Ion to come out any time soon.

 

[Bronetta]

This guys isn't a business person...

I take it you are.

 

[CertifiedFP]

Honestly, I think the industry rushed to VR-only games way too quickly. Should have focused on VR-supported/Better With VR games that don't actually require VR first while the install-base was still building.

 

[120v]

exclusivity agreements are, realistically, the only way to get several quality, "full content" VR games to the consumers for right now. that's just the reality

its entitlement culture BS like this in gaming that really pisses me off. nothing comes without some compromise

 

[Kikorin]

To me the best way to push VR now is make games compatibile with VR, but not ONLY for VR.

A great example to me is Resident Evil 7, big budget AAA game VR compatibile, but is not required to have an headset to play it. Like that the software houses can make triple A games, get profitable and risk a bit more in this new field.

 

[Aztechnology]

To me the best way to push VR now is make games compatibile with VR, but not ONLY for VR.

A great example to me is Resident Evil 7, big budget AAA game VR compatibile, but is not required to have an headset to play it. Like that the software houses can make triple A games, get profitable and risk a bit more in this new field.

Animations are a big issue for this, outside of the standard just walk around and move head to adjust the camera and stuff while in VR, doing standard games, especially third person just doesn't work in a way that's worth it. First person to make all the animations compatible with motion controls and movement without making people sick, framerates etc. It's a big undertaking.

 

[Haines]

After the scam if dayz this is one person I will never listen to

 

[Compsiox]

After the scam if dayz this is one person I will never listen to

Then why open the thread.

But agreed.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

until vr evolves past the virtual boy stage it's never going to take off. it's ridiculously cumbersome compared to firing up Steam or yohr PS4 and playing a game.

 

[Plumpbiscuit]

Harassing developers on Twitter is a no-go, in fact harassing developers itself shouldn't happen. Sometimes what they do is out of their own control and it's higher up that calls the shots. But what I can't excuse is that if your studio is built around a new bandwagon (VR in this case) there is stronger risk that you won't meet demand or in fact, there isn't demand there in the first place. He should have gone into business with a grounded foundation, and then have VR as a fallback plan in case anything went wrong.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The problem with Dean Hall is that he could talk as straight as an arrow, but people are always going to doubt him and accuse him of being a scam artist. It'll take some other more truthful devs to say similar things before people pay attention.

 

[Duxxy3]

I don't expect VR, as it is right now, to replace your regular gaming setups. Whether that be on console, pc or mobile.I don't think it's going to completely disappear either. We'll get some really cool games a few times a year, and beyond that it will be about experiences.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Harassing developers on Twitter is a no-go, in fact harassing developers itself shouldn't happen. Sometimes what they do is out of their own control and it's higher up that calls the shots. But what I can't excuse is that if your studio is built around a new bandwagon (VR in this case) there is stronger risk that you won't meet demand or in fact, there isn't demand there in the first place. He should have gone into business with a grounded foundation, and then have VR as a fallback plan in case anything went wrong.

Assuming you're talking about Dean Hall, he went in to their VR project knowing full well they'd lose money on it. His company could take the hit.

 

[Dremorak]

Boy am I glad I didn't end up working for this guy. Bullet dodged.

 

[exmachina64]

That's dumb as hell.

But still true.

 

[Trojan]

The VR industry right now is frustrating. Such a promising product and most people that try it are pretty amazed. But the effort is stifled by a high barrier to entry and its also a really isolating medium that isn't socially conducive in many cases.

I hope it continues to grow over time but the realist in me has doubts.

 

[FlyinJ]

exclusivity agreements are, realistically, the only way to get several quality, "full content" VR games to the consumers for right now. that's just the reality

its entitlement culture BS like this in gaming that really pisses me off. nothing comes without some compromise

Pigeonholing exclusivity problems soley on "entitled gamers" is short sighted and ignorant.

The main problem with exclusivity is trying to monopolize the market and fracture it at such an early state. VR needs content to be successful. Oculus isn't going to be successful unless all VR is successful at this point. They are already taking a hit financially to make VR successful, they might as well be putting their content on all platforms to build confidence into the medium.

If there was a healthy install base of hardware where it was plausible for developers to make decent money, I wouldn't have such an issue with exclusivity to platform. But at this state the amount of platform confusion they are creating with consumers is harming themselves and the industry at large.