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"DEAR AMERICA: You Should Be Mad As Hell About This"
- Thread starter Polari
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm fine. I'm not in trouble. I currently have an internship that's going to basically pay for the rest of my education. But I was one of a hundred hardworking students who applied and only thirty places were hiring. There was no way for us all to succeed, even if we were all equally hardworking and intelligent.
You didn't actually address any of my questions. I hold that social mobility is lower because it is more difficult to achieve nowadays, either because there are less opportunities, those that exist are harder to achieve, or more likely a combination of both. You disagree. What is your alternative explanation?
Just look at our history. We had two periods of incredible creative destruction (industrial revolution and WWII) that helped foster amazing opportunities of social mobility. The IR moreso than the post-WWII decades. Both eras were inflated even more by a poor workforce eager to be a part of it (immigrants in the IR and baby boomers in the post-WWII era). But then gradually those eras dried up and became what we have today.
So, now (and then) you have a class of aged people that made an incredible pile of money during their lifetimes in the peak years of these 'bubbles' (or waves or whatever you want to call them) ... and everyone else.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The whole thing of "you can't complain about corporations because you give them your money! Hypocrite!" thing seems terribly naive.
It's a bit like those people who call literal revolutionaries hypocrites when they use the tanks and guns of the prevailing government to stage the coup - as if they could have built secret bases and manufactured their own?
Or the people who say you're a hypocrite if you support OWS by sending an email using your iPhone.
Even people who disagree with a system must work within it to some degree to reform it. Besides... one of the big points with the entire rig is that the corrupt elements of corporate America have found ways to profit off nearly everything that transpires. Trying to run about 'purifying' yourself of corporate ties seems a bit futile at a certain level. Bully on you if you've found a local place to buy socks and you use a local community bank. But somewhere down the line, something you can't even avoid participating in, is likely giving money to a corporation or national bank somewhere. Unless you're a hermit in a cabin in the woods.
By the same token, it's nearly impossible for someone to NOT support 'their local sock maker' or the equivalent in some way, even if accidentally. Something you do is benefiting someone in your area who is not part of the overarching and corrupt system.
If you wait for everyone in the world to just suddenly stop doing anything that could possibly provide a penny to corporations, the wait will never end. Personally, I think it's more honest to advocate reform even if you know it will in some way hurt your interests should it come about.
Otherwise it just seems like prevaricating to create a framework in which practically nobody can complain about the way things are, so you don't have to listen to it.
It's a bit like those people who call literal revolutionaries hypocrites when they use the tanks and guns of the prevailing government to stage the coup - as if they could have built secret bases and manufactured their own?
Or the people who say you're a hypocrite if you support OWS by sending an email using your iPhone.
Even people who disagree with a system must work within it to some degree to reform it. Besides... one of the big points with the entire rig is that the corrupt elements of corporate America have found ways to profit off nearly everything that transpires. Trying to run about 'purifying' yourself of corporate ties seems a bit futile at a certain level. Bully on you if you've found a local place to buy socks and you use a local community bank. But somewhere down the line, something you can't even avoid participating in, is likely giving money to a corporation or national bank somewhere. Unless you're a hermit in a cabin in the woods.
By the same token, it's nearly impossible for someone to NOT support 'their local sock maker' or the equivalent in some way, even if accidentally. Something you do is benefiting someone in your area who is not part of the overarching and corrupt system.
If you wait for everyone in the world to just suddenly stop doing anything that could possibly provide a penny to corporations, the wait will never end. Personally, I think it's more honest to advocate reform even if you know it will in some way hurt your interests should it come about.
Otherwise it just seems like prevaricating to create a framework in which practically nobody can complain about the way things are, so you don't have to listen to it.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
The difference being that taxation won't bankrupt me if I get cancer. Honestly, out of the many things that are fucked up about America, the healthcare stuff makes my head spin. It would be funny if it weren't so fucking evil.
Defend, deflect, spin, ignore, lie, misinterpret. Lots of tools in the cognitive dissonance alleviation toolbox.
BattleMonkey
Member
So is this Corporate profits thing just really a handful of major companies, since so many are in deep shit right now and struggling?
Leeroy3101
Banned
Yeah, we're not the magic Democracy that people want to believe. We've become a Plutocracy which operates under the sham that we actually elect and decide all that goes on in this country. Only the big power brokers, not the Illumanti or whoever, in big business dictate the direction this country goes.
Occupy was a decent idea until they decided they didn't need a group of leadership to represent them.
Occupy was a decent idea until they decided they didn't need a group of leadership to represent them.
You presume I've not worked hard to get where I am. My level of "hard work" at this point is inconsequential if I'm already living a lifestyle that provides me an acceptable level of comfort.
RustyNails
Member
Capitalism when it comes to Corporate Profits, Socialism when it comes to Corporate Losses.
But we deserve what has happened to us because we deify Ronald Reagan and keep electing utter morons to Congress.
But we deserve what has happened to us because we deify Ronald Reagan and keep electing utter morons to Congress.
Leeroy3101
Banned
People will continue to be placated with credit lines and other such measures to make sure we keep buying "stuff" to make us happy. Our consumer culture in the United States is one of the reasons the American people haven't gotten too mad, yet.
Dude Abides
Banned
You presume Technomancer isn't working hard based on his GAF time. We can make the same presumption about you. Why are you resting on your laurels? Where's that work ethic Kosmo? How about a little more elbow grease, a little less golf and stogies?
Angry Fork
Member
I'm working on it, but it takes a long time to learn the in's and out's of every major political social and economic system conceived. Finding out what works for specific kinds of people, how people react to dramatic changes, what radical changes would do to various industries etc. and so on.
I wish everyone else felt the same way and tried to learn/improve together but nope, everyone just wants to stick with the same system and play cheerleader games for a "democratic" process that has gone horribly wrong. Instead of want to start from the ground up and try to do something new people are jerking off to Obama speeches.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
And if everyone worked just as hard as you we'd still need janitors.
I presumed nothing - I simply said he had more time to "work hard" if he wasn't satisfied.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
You're arguing past me. Nothing about what you're saying here has anything to do with what I've actually said
... I presume nothing, I'll restate my presumption.
Goddamn you and your double speak. I'm sure it fools the toadies around you, and indeed you yourself. But it's so dumb that it's like white hot shards in the mind sometimes.
You obviously don't get it - so I'll spell it out.
The presumption here is that you think Technomancer is whining about personal circumstances, when in fact he's speaking about the system in general terms.
You presume his circumstances and thus his motivation, failing to recognize that hard working, intelligent men and women could want a more equitable system inspite of their place in it.
I agree it's getting pretty ridiculous but we still have it far far better than a lot of other people in a lot of other countries. Not to mention there are programs to assist you with money and finding a job. It's very hard for families but it's not even comparable to some places in Africa and the Middle East. We need to put our money in education. I think that is what will create the jobs in the states.
That's because OWS never really moved from the "get in a crowd and hold signs" stage to the "do some real work to cause change" stage. They have thus far basically proved all the critics of the movement right.
Bill Maher summed it up pretty well.
Thats all well and good, but I hope you take the time to vote as well. Because shrugging off that bullshit democratic process is how we get Republican presidents and majorities in congress.
I agree about Obama, but we're damn close to doing a LOT worse.
Mammoth Jones
Member
The American public has been largely pacified. Who gives a shit if the top 1% control over 40% of the wealth when we have Netflix, iPhones and fast food. Most of us won't give a shit until those things go away.
bengraven
Member
Probably get so angry that they beat and raped their slaves, killed a few Indians, and then reflected for a few hours on horrible our country becomes in 200 years.
Don't worry, there will always be a wealth of people that self-sabotage, make poor life decisions, don't put a great importance on material wealth, etc.
bengraven
Member
HAHA I love how you put those together like that.
As if someone who doesn't care about having material wealth is just as bad as someone with no ambition or makes terrible decisions.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
If every level of society needs hard workers in at least a portion of their workforce, this notion of "work hard and you can succeed" remains bullshit. Especially at a time when local governments are trying to cut back on those jobs, reduce salaries or privatize.
If you were rich now, what would you do different?
It does make me mad. Sometimes it makes me really mad. But I look at my own situation at that point, and honestly I'm not in a terrible position. I'm a college graduate with no student loan debt, I have money in the bank that I earned, I don't have the best job but it pays well enough for me to survive and soon get a place of my own. A lot of people are faring a lot worse than I.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
That's a lot better than 'not terrible' - but like you said, a LOT of people are faring a lot worse than you.
I was about to say I'm fortunate to not be in debt - but I'm not fortunate. It took a lot of responsibility and working hard and, importantly, not living beyond my means to keep me out of any debt at all. I worked hard, I got paid more, and I was smarter with my money.
Anyone can work hard and be smart with their money. It's all the other shit that kills people's momentum when they have something good, like a job or education.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
I had $2500 in student loans when I graduated and my education cost at least $100k. I'm incredibly fortunate my parents had the money to pay for almost all of it up front.
Staying out of debt as a working adult is surprisingly easy once you have a certain income. It's the added debts that are now almost inherent to the system that are becoming really troubling.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Isn't that the truth - people are upset they can't get what is an unrealistic ad campaign.
actually a town in madison indiana was largely reinovated due to the people banding together and voting for a local congressman that gave a shit. President Obama isn't the only elected official you should be looking at. local and state governments do exist.
I'm fucking outraged, but unfortunately i share this country with a bunch of helpless misfits stuck in an individualist utopia that cannot be reasoned with. As if i'm arrogant enough to assume that anything i can do will change their minds.
In all seriousness though, I've personally struggled with the realities that these issues would impose on my life or my potential offspring for a long time and my only sane conclusion is that if you are not historically tied here through social relations(that are more important to you than anything else). Consider moving to a country where your values are more closely reflected, if you have the chance to immigrate. I'm not going to have kids here for sure, I don't want them to go through what i have with all this stupid loan bullshit and hoping you don't get sick while uninsured.
In all seriousness though, I've personally struggled with the realities that these issues would impose on my life or my potential offspring for a long time and my only sane conclusion is that if you are not historically tied here through social relations(that are more important to you than anything else). Consider moving to a country where your values are more closely reflected, if you have the chance to immigrate. I'm not going to have kids here for sure, I don't want them to go through what i have with all this stupid loan bullshit and hoping you don't get sick while uninsured.
Only to people that misinterpret the message of "anyone can be successful and move up in life" as "everyone will be successful and move up in life."
you could move to a socialist utopia.
That's what I think I may be doing in the coming years. There's too much this country does that ideally, I have issue with. And these aren't minor issues, but ones I honestly have no clue on solving. The health care issues, the student loan issues, and the social mobility issues seem quite out there for me, or anyone here, to solve.
I've thought about this as well. If my potential future kids can't be guaranteed to receive affordable healthcare and education, I'd feel guilty raising them here, despite the fact that all my friends and family are here and I'd also very much not want to move away from them.
So you're arrogant enough to say you're better than everybody else but not arrogant enough to think you can change anything. Got it. ; )
Mammoth Jones
Member
I'd be doing exactly what I'm doing now: Work hard to better myself.
Mammoth Jones
Member
"If you don't like it, leave!"
were never going to be as liberal as some of the more liberal european countries. I do believe that if a state wants single apayer healthcare they should be allowed to do it.
I'd be buying up real estate. It's a buyer's market right now, and of you have the money it pobably wouldn't be a bad idea to buy some property that you think will go up in value in a few years. That's only if I was rich though.
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