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[ponpo]

Are you allowed to put a 2 hour unskippable cutscene at the start of your game

 

[Echoplx]

There's no one here asking for refunds to be removed. No one. Not even TCR, they just want a system that's fairer for short games. A fixed 2 hour limit for ALL games is dumb. It's too long for certain games and too short for others.

There is no solution that will remove the possibility of abuse, that's just reality and not specific to games or digital media.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

It's a concern I'm completely sympathetic toward but I don't know a great solution to the problem. The fact of the matter is that Steam's refund policy as it exists now disincentivizes developers from creating their art in a certain way. A universal two-hour window implicitly devalues any project with a very limited scope. It's a reductionist approach to an incredibly versatile medium and I don't think it's healthy for creativity in general. You can talk about "consumer rights" all you want but I think the author of a 90-minute experience is just as entitled to his due as the author of a 200-hour one.

 

[JediLink]

That does not sound simple, let alone REALLY simple.

 

[tsundoku]

2 hours is actually probably a bit too short as a bottom line for all kinds of AAA shit that releases broken and you dont find out until after youve done their like 3-15 hours of mandatory tutorializing

someone protip this nerd and tell him to pop an acheivement for "2 hours played" at like an hour and 25 minutes of ingame time

can't he also just reduce the walkspeed, wasn't dear esther known for being especially slug drowning in molasses like?

 

[Serious Sam]

If I use a toaster for 2 hours and it breaks do I get less of a refund?

Exactly. I'm sick of game and software devs thinking they are special snowflakes who somehow should be exempt from all the pro-consumer regulations established over hundreds of years. Game and software industries are already some of the least regulated and some of the most anti-consumer, and they want even more control. No, just no.

 

[Durante]

Has there been much data about how widespread refunds are for single-playthrough games?

I've never seen any of these games go down significantly in owners on SteamSpy. ("Significantly" as in "more than the statistical variation inherent in the sampling process")

 

[peakish]

2 hours is actually probably a bit too short as a bottom line for all kinds of AAA shit that releases broken and you dont find out until after youve done their like 3-15 hours of mandatory tutorializing

someone protip this nerd and tell him to pop an acheivement for "2 hours played" at like an hour and 25 minutes of ingame time

can't he also just reduce the walkspeed, wasn't dear esther known for being especially slug drowning in molasses like?

Steam would clearly say 85 minutes played.

And is adding padding to a game really a solution?

 

[Skux]

There is no solution that will remove the possibility of abuse, that's just reality and not specific to games or digital media.

Agreed. Better to set one rule for all content that different exceptions for types of games.

 

[Blizzard]

If I use a toaster for 2 hours and it breaks do I get less of a refund?

Toasters aren't games (you wouldn't download a toaster, would you?) and isn't the problem here people returning a toaster because they finished doing a lifetime of toast with it, and not because it broke?

 

[T.O.P]

It's even simpler.

Create a game which satisfies people so that they don't want to refund it.

*

Not like i'm gonna give TCR any money ever again, after that turd that was A machine for pigs

 

[danmaku]

There is no solution that will remove the possibility of abuse, that's just reality and not specific to games or digital media.

There's no perfect solution, but there's room for improvement.

 

[Sad Affleck]

You can talk about "consumer rights" all you want but I think the author of a 90-minute experience is just as entitled to his due as the author of a 200-hour one.

He will get his due because most people will not refund it. The ones who do would have never bought it in the first place.

 

[ArtHands]

I honestly think that single-playthrough games (anything that tries to present a story or experience rather than something with replay) will always find people who would abuse it, regardless of how satisfied they are.

I think you are very optimistic about the average Steam user.

People who abuse it gets their privilege removed though

 

[Lanrutcon]

Are you allowed to put a 2 hour unskippable cutscene at the start of your game

Have you played FF13?

2 hours is enough to get kind of started on the beginning portion of the initial intro to the opening of the tutorial.

 

[daxy]

Maybe you should make real games then.

What if someone spends time getting a game to work only to find out that it never will? They should eat money trying to get someone else's work to function on their machine because there are some """games""" you can "beat" in a pitiful amount of time? No.

Don't like it? Don't sell your walking simulators on Steam.

Definitely not getting unreasonably upset about this. Nope.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

He will get his due because most people will not refund it. The ones who do would have never bought it in the first place.

I don't think you're wrong, and the issue I have with Steam's policy is more philosophical than practical. In my mind a perfect system would take the needs of every kind of product into account. I don't know what that system is.

 

[tim.mbp]

I imagine it's pretty trivial to flag users who abuse the refund policy. Don't see why all consumers should suffer.

 

[Stiler]

Consumer rights don't exist in some reality distortion field when it comes to games.

What I do or don't do with your product is none of your damn business. Returning a faulty product within a reasonable period means a full refund.

Some games are short, Dear Esther and similar games can be completed in one sitting, so do you think it's fair that people can play almost the entire game and then get a refund?

It's like if you go out to a restaurant and order a steak, you eat all but one bite and say "This steak wasn't prepared correctly, I'd like another."

That shit won't fly.

 

[leca]

After recently finding out that you can no longer purchase the original Dear Esther, this is not surprising.

The new upgraded version Dear Esther: Landmark Edition is significantly worse then the original on PC. It's infuriating and I'm not sure why more people have not noticed.

If anyone has both versions in their steam library take a look for yourself. The differences between the Source Engine based game and the Unity Engine demake are remarkable.

The menu, graphics options, performance and visual quality are all worse. If anyone had the opportunity to pick, they would refund the Landmark edition immediately and purchase the original version (or not in a fit of rage).

 

[saunderez]

After Everybody's Gone To The Rapture they lose the benefit of the doubt for me. If I could have returned that game I would have.

 

[EvB]

Some games are short, Dear Esther and similar games can be completed in one sitting, so do you think it's fair that people can play almost the entire game and then get a refund?

It's like if you go out to a restaurant and order a steak, you eat all but one bite and say "This steak wasn't prepared correctly, I'd like another."

That shit won't fly.

And I do feel for them on this count, likewise if you go to see a film and expect a refund 2 minutes before the credits roll

 

[EvB]

It's even simpler.

Create a game which satisfies people so that they don't want to refund it.

Thats such a narrow minded thing to say.

 

[Eumi]

So the system should be changed to better suit the games they make despite it not suiting other kinds of games?

 

[GodfatherX]

Cool I'm all for it, right after all the marketplaces adjust the cost of your game based on user reviews

 

[Moose Biscuits]

Some games are short, Dear Esther and similar games can be completed in one sitting, so do you think it's fair that people can play almost the entire game and then get a refund?

It's like if you go out to a restaurant and order a steak, you eat all but one bite and say "This steak wasn't prepared correctly, I'd like another."

That shit won't fly.

The analogy would be more appropriate if the steak was the size of a medallion that had maybe one or two bites worth on it at most.

 

[Stiler]

So the system should be changed to better suit the games they make despite it not suiting other kinds of games?

? A % complete would work for all games.

For long ones it'd still over probably 2 hours (or more) and short games wouldn't be shafted by it because they are short.

A 2-hour window hurts short games and isn't fair toward them.

 

[StuKen]

2 hour limits are bad for devs giving smaller game experiences at lower prices.

Percentage based limits are not the answer.

No, I don't know what is.

This whole problem is down to valve not actually wanting to do the real annoying day to day grunt work that an actual publisher does and is totally enamored with the idea that automated systems can replace this highly subjective work.
They opened a floodgate with zero barrier to entry for more nefarious types to abuse through asset flips, fundamentally broken titles and so on. After the bad press that the torrent of rubbish caused instead of realizing that some kind of human intervention is required to filter out the blatant abuses they implement another automated system that fails to capture the nuances required when dealing with people who will try game the system just like the asset flipper and card scammers did.

All simple systems will be abused, people will min max their way through them to benefit themselves. What is required is not more techno utopian nonsense of self organizing self governing systems but real arbiters there to say no when a blatant abuse is being carried out. This applies on both customer and developer sides.

 

[BrassDragon]

If you manage to finish a short game in <2 hours it clearly wasn't 'faulty' so you shouldn't be able to return it

I can go to a high street store right now and suit up with brand clothing for a party, return the next day and if I kept everything in order, they'll refund me the full purchase.

Even though the system can (and is) being abused by a small minority, we consider consumer rights important enough that we assume good faith on the part of the purchasers when these complaints happen.

Game developers seem to have a penchant for assuming the worst about their own customers. It's understandable, I guess, if you spend a lot of a time in your hate-filled social media/game forums bubble but it's not an attitude I respect.

For the record, I own everything The Chinese Box put out and still call bullshit on this opinion.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

If people are satisfied with your product they will keep it regardless of its length. If Chinese room are so worried about people refunding their games maybe instead of conplaining about it on twitter they should make a good game for once.

 

[Eumi]

? A % complete would work for all games.

For long ones it'd still over probably 2 hours (or more) and short games wouldn't be shafted by it because they are short.

A 2-hour window hurts short games and isn't fair toward them.

Multiplayer games?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Multiplayer games?

Also, what counts as "completion"?
If I just run through the entire world of Skyrim without doing any quests, does that count? Do main quests count more than side quests? Can I level up? Can I pick up items? Collectibles?
What about run-based games like Binding of Isaac?

 

[Xando]

Thats such a narrow minded thing to say.

It's true though.

If your game can't convince me within 2 hours i'll refund it.


It's no problem with physical games, why should it be with digital games?

 

[Stiler]

The analogy would be more appropriate if the steak was the size of a medallion that had maybe one or two bites worth on it at most.

....Dear Esther (and most any short game like that) cost like 9-20 bucks usually.

Firewatch
Gone Home
Oxenfree
Abzu
etc

So you are already paying like 1/3 or so of the price compared to big AAA games (of which many only last like 8-15 hours).

Then you have games like Witcher 3/Mass Effect that can last 80+ hours.

Using a % allows each game to be "tried" without allowing someone to abuse the system to play 90% of a game and then ask for a refund. Long games still offer ample time and short games can't be finished.

How is that not a fair thing for both the consumer and the developer?

edit - Also for those saying what system would be better, why not use both?

Have a % complete and a 2-hour time limit, whichever one you hit first stops the refund. Seems simple enough to me, this means you can't abuse multiplayer/not completing things to play for a long time and the % complete helps stop abusing short games.

 

[danmaku]

? A % complete would work for all games.

For long ones it'd still over probably 2 hours (or more) and short games wouldn't be shafted by it because they are short.

A 2-hour window hurts short games and isn't fair toward them.

What about games like Rocket League? Or Europa Universalis? There's nothing to "complete" in these games.

Bottom line is: a "one size fits all" approach is dumb.

 

[Par Score]

"It's REALLY simple."

<Proceeds to blithely outline an incredibly complex system that might barely work for their own games but nobody else's>

God, these guys are so far up their own ass I'm surprised they don't choke.

? A % complete would work for all games.

For long ones it'd still over probably 2 hours (or more) and short games wouldn't be shafted by it because they are short.

A 2-hour window hurts short games and isn't fair toward them.

It wouldn't work for any game with ambitions beyond being Checkbox Simulator 2017.

Take Breath of the Wild. I've played that game for 70 hours, I honestly could not tell you how "complete" it was to me.

I don't care what the game considers my completion %age. I don't care how many shrines I've done, how many bosses I've defeated, how many seeds I've collected. I care about the world, I care about new experiences, which I'm still constantly having.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Sorry, my rights as a consumer come before your bottom line.

Being able to finish a game and then get a full refund is not your right as a consumer.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

edit - Also for those saying what system would be better, why not use both?

Have a % complete and a 2-hour time limit, whichever one you hit first stops the refund. Seems simple enough to me, this means you can't abuse multiplayer/not completing things to play for a long time and the % complete helps stop abusing short games.

I wouldn't mind this, but again, the developers then HAVE to give you a clear and easy option to check how much % you've already completed and what furthers your %.

 

[Xando]

Being able to finish a game and then get a full refund is not your right as a consumer.

My consumer rights give me the right to refund for 14 days without naming a reason.

 

[BrassDragon]

Being able to finish a game and then get a full refund is not your right as a consumer.

EU law is not made from wishes and cotton candy. This is wrong

 

[Kinyou]

I don't think I like these guys

Bit depressed about Xbox jumping on the 2hr refund BOLLOCKS ARSEHOLE WHY WHY WHY YOU FOOLS CANNOT SUSTAIN NORMAL TEMPER WTF MODERN CULTURE

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChineseRoom/status/852577135348854786

 

[SuperBanana]

If you finish the game you shouldn't be allowed to refund it. Otherwise the 2hr limit effects very few games. Sorry but your 2 hour game shouldn't take precedence over the entire consumer rights of an industry.

 

[GodfatherX]

EU law is not made from wishes and cotton candy. This is wrong

Please excuse my American brethren, we are used to thinking we fall under some consumer rights when in reality we have the most anti consumer/pro corporation rules amongst any modern major country

 

[BrassDragon]

It's frustrating how easily gamers fall in line with industry nonsense. In this case, it's not even a grey area - this debate has already been settled in law and digital platforms belatedly followed suit.

If you want to support this company, buy their products and spread the good word. Don't curtail everybody's rights because you have feels.

 

[Shredderi]

Consumer rights are a thing. Game industry doesn't and shouldn't get an exception to the rules.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

My consumer rights give me the right to refund for 14 days without naming a reason.

If 14 days was the rule across the board I would have less of an issue, honestly. A strict two hours disproportionately impacts developers of short games, and that's where I take umbrage.

 

[Gravy Boat]

My consumer rights give me the right to refund for 14 days without naming a reason.

Maybe I'm reading the wrong websites but this doesn't seem to apply to digital games. What I can see says it's 30 days for faulty goods. I'm happy to be corrected if that's wrong though

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/can-i-get-a-refund-on-a-digital-download

 

[Zizbuka]

I liked Dear Esther, but I also liked the free mod it came from. Weird case for this one, since you can play the mod for free.

For other games, offer a demo.

Like any system, a minority will abuse it, but then be lauded as if it was the norm.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

If you finish the game you shouldn't be allowed to refund it. Otherwise the 2hr limit effects very few games. Sorry but your 2 hour game shouldn't take precedence over the entire consumer rights of an industry.

What if its a Trine 3 situation though? I mean that game just stops right in the middle and you kinda feel scammed by Frozenbyte, because you were actually expecting more?

Spoiler

I mean the whole story is about the three Trines afaik and the game just stops after you find the first.

Btw. that Garry Newman tweet:

https://mobile.twitter.com/garrynewman/status/852578022070906882

"My game takes 2 mins to complete. Refunds should only be available if they've played less than 6 seconds."

 

[wesleyshark]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ChineseRoom/status/852577448755683328

Lol. No.