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[Durante]

I can't believe how many people come out of the woodwork against something I've thought was universally considered a good thing.

Generally, the belief that the potential for any type of "abuse" has to be 100% eradicated with a systemic design measure, consumer rights and convenience be damned, is fucking stupid.

Some people are always going to "abuse" the system (which generally means "not giving publishers as much money as they think they deserve"). For example, they might do so by

• Stealing a game
• Borrowing a game from their friends
• Buying a game used
• Abusing the refund system

Or a great number of other options. Should we endeavor to eridacte all of these possibilities?

Microsoft actually planned to introduce a systemic solution to the used game abuse "problem" with XB1, and I don't recall people liking it.

European law. Everything you order online, you can return in 14 days whether its Games, iPad, cameras etc.

And funnily enough, it's for the exact same reason that game refunds need to be a thing: to evaluate that the product matches what you expected.

I understand The Chinese Rooms position here based on their games. Surely the timer could be adjusted on a case by case basis or something?

The current system is simple and, crucially, completely transparent to the consumer. Introducing specific per-game variations makes it less so.

Apparently the Steam system is working well enough to be basically 1:1 adopted by their competitors.

 

[Sad Affleck]

You heard it devs, f your short experiences, pad it with meaningless bullshit to ensure people can't complete it and use their rights (to be assholes) and get refunds.

Padding your game with bullshit seems like a surefire way to get people to refund it, not the opposite.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Some games are short, Dear Esther and similar games can be completed in one sitting, so do you think it's fair that people can play almost the entire game and then get a refund?

It's like if you go out to a restaurant and order a steak, you eat all but one bite and say "This steak wasn't prepared correctly, I'd like another."

That shit won't fly.

I mean, if you're gonna do that, why not just pirate it? That's the problem with that argument. If the end result is satisfactory people wouldn't refund.

I can't believe how many people come out of the woodwork against something I've thought was universally considered a good thing.

Pretty much.

Most of the argument feels wonky because it goes with the "why put much effort when you could have just pirated it", the game vanishes from your library and records iirc if you refund it, playing -> refunding for the sake of finishing doesn't really make a lick of sense.

Hell you can't even "game" the refund for card drops since iirc they don't fully drop all possible cards until you used up all 2 hours.

 

[Chumley]

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

You said that people abusing refunds is not a problem. Do you have any receipts at all to back that up? The Chinese Room seems to disagree, and they're a game developer.

 

[drotahorror]

It's true though.

If your game can't convince me within 2 hours i'll refund it.


It's no problem with physical games, why should it be with digital games?

eh? So I can buy a physical game, take it home, beat it, and bring it back for a full refund?

I mean, if you're gonna do that, why not just pirate it? That's the problem with that argument. If the end result is satisfactory people wouldn't refund.

You're in your own world. People definitely take advantage of shorter games and getting refunds. Go read Abzu forums, games that are short. They even come back to the community forum to boast about it.

I'm not saying I agree with TCR, because I don't. I love the policy but it definitely harms shorter games. It sucks but that's the way it is.

 

[Hektor]

You said that people abusing refunds is not a problem. Do you have any receipts at all to back that up? The Chinese Room seems to disagree, and they're a game developer.

I don't need receipts for common sense.

Everybody that wants the game for free can already get it for free with or without refunds.

eh? So I can buy a physical game, take it home, beat it, and bring it back for a full refund?

In most countries of europe you can do that. At least for console game,s since PC ones have the hurdle of being tied to accouts.

 

[Sad Affleck]

I do kinda sympathise with developers on this. Just from things I've read and heard on the internet, these refund systems are being abused quite heavily

There is no evidence whatsoever to support that claim.

 

[Xando]

First off, video games are not movies or music. They are wildly different and vary tremendously in ways movies and music don't. Movies are 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 hours long, very rarely longer or shorter than that. They're also always the same ticket price in the theater. After 10-20 minutes, you can't get a refund. Last time I checked with iTunes if you watched the entire thing you have to send them an email and they decide on refunds by a case by case basis, they do not give out blanket refunds the way Steam does if you're under the 2 hour mark.

Of course it can be different from where you live but i can literally go to https://reportaproblem.apple.com/ and request a refund (Apple even has a 90 day limit) for Apps, Music and Movies i bought.

It doesn't matter if i used it for 10 minutes or 3 hours.

Please provide some actual facts instead of just posting some hot takes.

Video games can be $5 or they can be $60. They can be cheap multiplayer games that offer "limitless content", or they can be guided linear experiences, or any number of other things. Saying there should be "no difference" is saying there's "no difference" in the content they provide, which is factually wrong. There's so much intellectual dishonesty going on in this thread.

Movies and Music also have different levels of content and vary in price. There is no difference in games other than indies feel like they're entitled to lower consumer standards every other industry has to live by.

eh? So I can buy a physical game, take it home, beat it, and bring it back for a full refund?

Technically yes.

 

[Durante]

You said that people abusing refunds is not a problem. Do you have any receipts at all to back that up? The Chinese Room seems to disagree, and they're a game developer.

I'm sure it's a problem for some developers and publishers.

I guess it was a problem for Warner Bros. Games too.

That is, in fact, the goal.

 

[Boss Doggie]

You're in your own world. People definitely take advantage of shorter games and getting refunds. Go read Abzu forums, Inside forums, games that are short. They even come back to community forum to boast about it.


I'm not saying I agree with TCR, because I don't. I love the policy but it definitely harms shorter games. It sucks but that's the way it is.

Then they don't have the intention of buying the game to begin with. As I said, pretty much similar to piracy in some ways.

Yeah it's unfortunate these things happen, but people who do love the game will buy it and keep it especially if it leaves a lasting impact. I have plenty of short games that I have bought that are still in my account and have refunded big games *cough lego batman DC games*

 

[Tunesmith]

From a developer "protection" standpoint, has there been any word on how much or for how long Microsoft is absorbing the cost of any refunds issued? In normal circumstances Steam, Apple, Google and probably a few other merchants cover the refunds done within 48 hours (it used to be much longer) of purchase at no cost to the developer's payouts - I would assume that Microsoft does a similar thing as to not completely leave developers out to dry.

 

[Chumley]

Movies and Music also have different levels of content and vary in price. There is no difference in games other than indies feel like they're entitled to lower consumer standards every other industry has to live by.


Technically yes.

We're talking about content in the context of time. Movies are almost always 1 1/2 - 2/12 hours. Music is different, but we're still rarely talking about albums being longer than 4 hours.

Games, meanwhile, can offer content of up to hundreds of hours for $10 or $20 games. There's no strict rule there, it varies too wildly.

 

[Par Score]

I honestly don't know what part of my post you're arguing against. I'm saying I would be more comfortable with 14 days being the only restriction because it's less unfair to short games.

This is actually much more sensible solution.

Removing the time-limit makes the process apply equally and fairly to all developers regardless of the length of their game. "Problem" solved.

 

[EvB]

Your assumption also seems to be based on the thought that people are assholes.

Yes, cheap assholes

 

[Chumley]

I don't need receipts for common sense.

So you don't have any receipts. Gotcha.

Next time you try to state something as definitive fact, get some proof to back it up first.

 

[Xando]

We're talking about content in the context of time. Movies are almost always 1 1/2 - 2/12 hours. Music is different, but we're still rarely talking about albums being longer than 4 hours.

Games, meanwhile, can offer content of up to hundreds of hours for $10 or $20 games. There's no strict rule there, it varies too wildly.

So why should i as a consumer have my rights limited because games vary in length?

If you develop a games shorter than 2 hours you should consider the possibility that some people will try and abuse a refund system.

What you're arguing for is fucking over gamers because a small minority abuses a system.

 

[daegan]

And funnily enough, it's for the exact same reason that game refunds need to be a thing: to evaluate that the product matches what you expected.

The flip side of this is that it will cost us future works like MGS2 that deliberately subvert the audience's expectations.

 

[drotahorror]

Technically yes.

Not at Best Buy or Walmart in the USA.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Consumer rights don't exist in some reality distortion field when it comes to games.

What I do or don't do with your product is none of your damn business. Returning a faulty product within a reasonable period means a full refund.

The games aren't faulty. Chinese room makes short games that you could realistically play all of in 2 hours and then refund, meaning they get fuck all despite you being completely fine using the game and playing to completion.

A single 2 hours time limit is a problem for such a developer, yes. I don't know how to fix it, but a 2 hour time limit is too much for some games and at the same time not even close to enough for others. I don't know what the effective solution is , but a flat time rate across all games probably isn't it.

 

[Nzyme32]

This is stupid imo

A 2hr guaranteed refund is perfectly reasonable in providing users the opportunity to test the game and determine if it works correctly as well as determining if the game has the quality / content that was to be expected.

Pushing a gameplay time period subtracting from refundable return cost is ridiculous. Test the game for an hour and find it breaks, get less money back / discover the game is not as claimed, get less money back. It's hard not to consider this an argument from a biased party that happens to make such games that can be completed and disliked quite widely - indeed an issue of the type of game but not justifiable to take money always from those dismayed with the product.

Also you would have to arbitrarily define "completing" the game - again looking like a biased party in this thought process, where their games just happen to be ones with a definable "end", unlike the majority of others and how users define that anyway.

 

[Xando]

Not at Best Buy or Walmart in the USA.

You're welcome to move to the EU if you want better consumer protections

 

[Fantastapotamus]

European law. Everything you order online, you can return in 14 days whether its Games, iPad, cameras etc.

It's not that easy though and companies would most likely stop doing business with you if you actually go through with this.

 

[Vintage]

2 hour limit is not totally fair, but it's as fair as you can get. I feel that more than 99% of games exceed 2 hour play time and it's just enough to see the problems with the game if you experience any. It's a golden middle.

What other solution would you suggest?
Letting developer select the limit will definitely lead to abuse.
You can't define strict rules what counts as a broken game.
If the game is not broken, but deceitfully marketed, how do you define it?
Percentage-based refunds do not work in games.

And after all, I didn't see any proof that legit good games are being refunded to the point of abuse that leads to any significant loss.

 

[Hektor]

So you don't have any receipts. Gotcha.

Next time you try to state something as definitive fact, get some proof to back it up first.

It is fact.

How do you want me to prove it, shall i post a torrent link to Dear Esther?

How about Chinese Rooms proves first that it is actually hurting their business before arguing against my rights ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Paasei]

I have only refunded 2 games ever. One because I got it as a gift the same day on GoG (Witcher 3).

The other because I just do not like it: Arma 3.

Just think about what you buy. Refund system is fine as it is.

 

[Hydrargyrus]

I think all this game refund stuff is a good thing to ask for, but idk if it's just me, but I've never felt the necessity to ask for a refund.
I just simply check everything I buy. I look for reviews, opinions and videos for every game I'm interested, simply I don't buy anything I'm not sure I like.

But as I said, the game refund is something that is good for the consumers, so is very welcome

 

[Chumley]

So why should i as a consumer have my rights limited because games vary in length?

If you develop a games shorter than 2 hours you should consider the possibility that some people will try and abuse a refund system.

What you're arguing for is fucking over gamers because a small minority abuses a system.

What I'm arguing for is for people to understand what they're buying before they buy it.

It's part of being an adult. I do it every day. I walk to the grocery store and read labels and what I'm getting before I buy it.

Before buying a TCR game, they inform you in BIG LETTERS if they have to, that the game is 2 hours long and after 15 minutes you can't refund it. Then you get to decide if you want to spend your money or not. It's not complicated.

 

[Izuna]

No way, some games don't even start/or have serious bugs later on.

 

[YianGaruga]

It's not that easy though and companies would most likely stop doing business with you if you actually go through with this.

It actually is that easy though

Even sent back physical games I opened and played back to amazon before because they were that bad (just once or twice)

They didn't care

 

[Croash]

I think it's better for consumers to be able to get a refund for something they didn't like so that:
• they don't feel like they just lost their money and time, which can kill any motivation to purchase more games.
• they can spend that money on something they'll like, possibly buying DLCs/telling friends/looking into sequels.

The greater good is to give every possible option to consumers so they can help maintain a virtuous cycle for the industry.

However, when for a specific game/developer it means that their product can be completed for no charge, I can understand the huge frustration.

Still, between forcing someone to keep an "undesirable" product in their library and allowing them to undo their misguided purchase, I know what won't lead to rage and trolling.

Platforms must still track any possible abuses, knowing if someone repeatedly denies a particular publisher/developer their money, or simply constantly refunds tons of short experiences.
At one point you have to ask yourself "Why do I even purchase things if I refund them all?". For a specific game, I can understand, but repeating this behaviour means you'd be the problem, not the games.

 

[letmetrythisname]

I didn't see any proof that legit good games are being refunded to the point of abuse that leads to any significant loss.

That's because there is no widespread "abuse" of the refund system. Until statistics prove otherwise, "refund abuse" is little more than anti-consumer rhetoric.

 

[Durante]

It's not that easy though and companies would most likely stop doing business with you if you actually go through with this.

I've sent back multiple items to Amazon without any detailed reasons and they still happily do business with me.

Just like on Steam, it's a matter of proportionality. If you refund every other thing you buy you might face repercussions.

 

[Phamit]

The system seems to work on steam or are there Devs having problems since the system was introduced?

 

[Chumley]

It is fact.

How do you want me to prove it, shall i post a torrent link to Dear Esther?

If you can't prove it, it's a theory, not a fact. You don't understand the meaning of basic definitions.

Also, TCR never claimed anything to be a fact like you are.

 

[YianGaruga]

If there was proof of refund abuse, why hasn't Valve taken action yet and why is Microsoft implementing the system without any real outside pressure?

You'd think those billion dollar companies would have enough data to know what they're doing. Better than The Chinese Room at least

 

[Xando]

What I'm arguing for is for people to understand what they're buying before they buy it.

It's part of being an adult. I do it every day. I walk to the grocery store and read labels and what I'm getting before I buy it.

I agree with you on this. That's why i don't buy Chinese Room games or any other "walking simulators". I find them boring and just don't like them.

That doesn't mean i shouldn't be able to have the safety of knowing if i don't like this game i can refund it. Just like any other product.

 

[Volodja]

So you don't have any receipts. Gotcha.

Next time you try to state something as definitive fact, get some proof to back it up first.

Actually, the people that have to provide proof are the ones making the claim that abuse is happening, not the opposite.
Until said proof is provided, assumptions about abuse not happening in relevant amounts should be the default state.

 

[Hektor]

If you can't prove it, it's a theory, not a fact. You don't understand the meaning of basic definitions.

No, i understand them just fine.

You're just being intentonally obtuse that's all

 

[Yjynx]

I always conflicted on game refund. Its like you have a lick of cookies and gives it back in the box.

Why not just make policy on mandatory game demo?

 

[Durante]

Why not just make mandatory game demo?

Because that's actually a significant effort for developers, and doesn't protect consumers in case the full game is broken and the demo isn't.

 

[matrix-cat]

Everyone arguing that a percentage-based system would be unfair for certain genres of games, so what? It's plainly obvious that the current time-based system is unfair for certain genres of game.

The way to make it fair is to raise the time limit. Seven days, fourteen days, whatever. Go nuts and get rid of the limits entirely. Then it's fair to every game, and then we'd see how heavily it would be abused and how all developers would start complaining. It's easy to shitpost away these concerns from The Chinese Room because "walking simulators aren't real games, should'a made your art conform to these specific guidelines if you didn't want people stealing it", but I think there's a pretty obvious reason why Valve wouldn't be willing to institute a longer refund period.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I've sent back multiple items to Amazon without any detailed reasons and they still happily do business with me.

Just like on Steam, it's a matter of proportionality. If you refund every other thing you buy you might face repercussions.

It actually is that easy though

Even sent back physical games I opened and played back to amazon before because they were that bad (just once or twice)

They didn't care

That's not what I was talking about though:

European law. Everything you order online, you can return in 14 days whether its Games, iPad, cameras etc.

This makes it sound like I can spend 300 hours on The Witcher 3 and still get a refund within 14 days. Just wanted to clarify that that's not really the case. Afaik you CAN do it but only through proper legal channels, so it'd be more work than just sending an email. (not 100% sure about that though) And even if you go through with it Valve (or other companies) might stop doing business with you.

Obviously a lot of companies do have their own refund policies (like amazon), I just wanted to clarify that you can't simply return used products every other day and not face any repercussions.

 

[Chumley]

I agree with you on this. That's why i don't buy Chinese Room games or any other "walking simulators". I find them boring and just don't like them.

That doesn't mean i shouldn't be able to have the safety of knowing if i don't like this game i can refund it. Just like any other product.

To go back to the film comparison, games are not like films at all in almost every circumstance except for TCR games and "walking simulators".

It's a specific case, but under that specific case I don't think you should be entitled to get a refund if you simply don't like it after spending more than 2 hours on it, or finishing over half of the intended playtime. Like I said before, that would be like asking for a refund after finishing a movie in the theater. I understand that you said iTunes lets you do this, but I've only ever rarely heard that being a thing and that it's a case by case thing. It certainly isn't a thing in theaters.

Movies have trailers and reviews to prepare people before they spend their money. Games have the same thing. That should be enough, and if it isn't, people don't have to buy them.

 

[Xando]

Everyone arguing that a percentage-based system would be unfair for certain genres of games, so what? It's plainly obvious that the current time-based system is unfair for certain genres of game.

I have yet to see anyone (including Chinese Room) provide any evidence this is actually the case. You'd think for as long as we have the Steam refund policy now you'd have lots of indies complaining about this.

To go back to the film comparison, games are not like films at all in almost every circumstance except for TCR games and "walking simulators".

It's a specific case, but under that specific case I don't think you should be entitled to get a refund if you simply don't like it after spending more than 2 hours on it, or finishing over half of the intended playtime. Like I said before, that would be like asking for a refund after finishing a movie in the theater. I understand that you said iTunes lets you do this, but I've only ever rarely heard that being a thing and that it's a case by case thing. It certainly isn't a thing in theaters.

Movies have trailers and reviews to prepare people before they spend their money. Games have the same thing. That should be enough, and if it isn't, people don't have to buy them.

The theater comparisons are way off though considering in a theater i use their facilities and occupy a space they could actually use to sell to a different person. That's not the case with games.


Itunes/Amazon or whatever digital platform you use is a way better comparison to steam than some random movie theater.

 

[Elandyll]

The problem with a fixed % is that it could work for smaller games, say 20% (of a time completion set by devs/ publishers), but how would CDPR feel about letting player go through 20% (or even. 10%) of Witcher 3 before a refund?

I imagine the solution might be a 2 bracket system, games under 10h (as described by devs/ Pubs) having a 1h limit, and games over 10h a 2h limit? Of course games right at the cap will have complaints, but I don't think there's a perfect system here.

 

[maxiell]

The current system is simple and, crucially, completely transparent to the consumer. Introducing specific per-game variations makes it less so.

The current system is wonderful, but saying it can't be improved to accomodate shorter experiences is bizarre.

 

[RPGam3r]

Padding your game with bullshit seems like a surefire way to get people to refund it, not the opposite.

Depends on the padding actually.

 

[QuantumSquid]

Maybe they should try making games people won't want to refund.

 

[slightconfuse]

Still wouldn't stop people from refunding it.

 

[Yjynx]

Because that's actually a significant effort for developers, and doesn't protect consumers in case the full game is broken and the demo isn't.

Then just download the full game but bar progress on certain level area etc etc. If you really like the game then you can pay to continue. Whats so hard about that? And what if only after two hours the bug showed up?


Gamers aint saint and I found more and more people becoming assholes.