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[ArtHands]

I feel bad for TCR and similar because there will be some 'customers' that definitely abuse the system. Yes, someone could have pirated the game anyway but a self-approved refund button definitely makes it more convenient. Whether that will have much of a material difference on overall sales of a product compared to the 'pre-refund' days, I'm not so sure.

With regards the right to a refund within 14 days of Internet/long distance orders in the EU, upon receipt of the physical product the retailer can still refuse a refund if they feel the product has been used/worn & suffered damage or additional wear and tear as a result. And certainly in the UK at least there is no right to a refund from a bricks and mortar store for unwanted goods. So maybe it's the automated nature of the process that leaves some developers more susceptible than others.

Personally I feel that if they were to have a very large and bold disclaimer prior to downloading/purchasing the software that this title is exempt from an automatic refund under 2 hours or if you progress beyond a certain point/area/level in that time. If you would have to agree to that before proceeding but it wouldn't affect your statutory right to a refund if the game was faulty, I think that's fine but that seems abhorrent to some.

What is the reason given why DLC is exempt from the refund policy (for MS, don't know about Steam)? Might it be because it's often short and more larger developers have put pressure on due to them saying it's open for abuse?

Maybe "walking simulator" developers will set their games second acts up as DLC in the future.

on Steam, people who abuses the systems gets ban from refunding. I suppose it will work the same here so there's nothing much to feel bad about.

 

[Durante]

This is the key thing but people seem unable to look beyond the The Chinese Room's situation and the implication for consumer rights in general if we let this stand.

There is also a visceral ignorance of the actual law and the fact that it doesn't close every loophole ('*gasp* You mean consumers can ABUSE their return right?') These concepts have been on the books in EU product and service industries, online and offline, for years and it hasn't killed the economy yet.

Unless you produce some hard evidence that refund policies are abused en masse, you're trying to change a solid and fair rule based on the exceptions to that rule.

Exactly.

I'd like to reiterate that: trying to come up with a systemic solution that completely eliminates all potential for abuse while disregarding consumer convenience and transparency is silly. We don't do this in any other context, and for good reason.

I feel posts like this are sort of highlighting the problem with people's views on the refund system, given that Valve already does this.

The narrative from a lot of the "anti-refund" side seem to be missing how the refund system already works in practice.

Indeed.

 

[Jebusman]

How in the world do they propose to calculate how you calculate the percentage of finishing a multiplayer game like Overwatch?

They don't. They just want special rules for the kind of games they make.

This isn't some giant dev focused initiative they're suggesting.

It's "I don't like that people can refund our game, how can we make this as difficult as possible".

 

[BigEmil]

They don't. They just want special rules for the kind of games they make.

This isn't some giant dev focused initiative they're suggesting.

It's "I don't like that people can refund our game, how can we make this as difficult as possible".

Spot on

 

[Jebusman]

Like I totally get the position TCR wants to take. No one "wants" their game to be refunded. They want people to buy the game and feel satisfied with it.

The solution to stop refunds isn't "Make refunds harder to get".

It's "Make a game good enough that people won't want to refund it".

If there is a large enough problem of people just refunding the game after completing it, then maybe the general public doesn't think as highly of your game as you were led to believe.

 

[Peroroncino]

I think their games [and I use that term loosely] are pretty bad, but I certainly understand their situation. However if I was them, I'd try contacting MS and ask if they have some sort of system implemented against people that abuse refunds [steam does afaik] rather than throwing a childish tantrum on twitter using words like 'cock'.

Besides, how that percentage based system would even work? If their game is 2-3 hours long, what's to say that even after 20 minutes of playing [which isn't even close for proper evaluation of whether or not the game is even working like it should] you won't get locked out of your refund because just by walking straight you already passed the percentage cap?

 

[Theslammer]

Everybody's Gone To Get Refunds

Paid money for that with no regrets. ^_^

 

[Septimius]

Consumer law the way I know it, from my communist country of Norway, it is such that "the thing shall comply with the requirements for type, quantity, quality, other properties" and that it shall be "what consumers have reason to expect from the purchase of such a thing, in terms of durability and other properties".

Those two parts of our law means that if a product does not meet those standards, you have the right to have them corrected. If they can't do that, you can get a refund. Sadly, no one's gone to trial over this in regards to video games in Norway, so most retailers deny that part of the law when it comes to games. I tried using this law to get No Man's Sky refunded, but they said I'd have to take them to court to get that.

Percentage of game played doesn't make any sense. If the game isn't good enough, it's not mitigated by the fact that you played a certain part of it. What if a game is good up until the 40% mark? Does that mean that the game is "up to standards for 40% of the game, so you can't get that refunded"? No, because games are sold as a whole. If I find a moldy cookie in a cookie package, I'm not expected to eat the others, or even if I ate one before I saw the moldy one, I will get a full refund. Games and refunds needs to be treated more like other consumer products. How big of a part of the game you played has no impact on the quality of the game.

EDIT: Also to whatever poor arguments are made on "getting a refund for not liking it" is missing the whole point. The subjective experience cannot ever be refunded. If you buy Metal Gear Solid V and you just find it piss boring or can't get into it, you shouldn't get a refund. It is a 100% functional game that meets the expected requirements of quality and quantity of a game. It's not hard, at all, especially given that unlike most consumer products, that are individually produced, games are copies, and are less likely to have a flaw that pertains only to one customer. Of course, you have games that sometimes don't work on certain hardware, and that's bad and should give you a refund. However, take No Man's Sky. That was a product of inferior quality and quantity, and didn't meet the expectations the game has set up to. That should open up for a universal refund, and in some cases it did. That should be more common. Once a game is found to not meet the expectations a consumer should have, it should be universally opened up to refund it, within a reasonable time frame.

 

[tsumineko]

I don't think I like these guys


https://mobile.twitter.com/ChineseRoom/status/852577135348854786

Yep, join the club.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

If games are less than 2 hours long (average) I'd be ok with a percentage complete but the devs would have to set that and be clear about it up front

For more traditional experiences I think 2 hours is fair

 

[fabricated backlash]

I feel posts like this are sort of highlighting the problem with people's views on the refund system, given that Valve already does this.

The narrative from a lot of the "anti-refund" side seem to be missing how the refund system already works in practice.

A lot of the belly-aching I hear from the devs who do complain about the refund system just seem generally mad that in an industry that up until this point, made it extremely difficult for a consumer to receive any refund at all, finally allows some refunds to happen, and they're mad that people are refunding their game.

No self reflection as to why people are doing so. The quality of the experience they're selling (relative to the cost) surely can't be a factor. It must be people just want a free ride, and rather than doing it the much, MUCH easier way of downloading a torrent and playing a pirated version, they're going to go through the process of setting up a steam account, paying for it, playing it in it's entirely, THEN refunding it. Each and every time.

Well didn't know that was already in place. Good to know.

 

[MageBoySA]

Some games are short, Dear Esther and similar games can be completed in one sitting, so do you think it's fair that people can play almost the entire game and then get a refund?

It's like if you go out to a restaurant and order a steak, you eat all but one bite and say "This steak wasn't prepared correctly, I'd like another."

That shit won't fly.

I was at a restaurant last night, and we were talking with our waitress after we finished our food when she said "oh looks like you didn't like it, let me take it off your check." (Our plates were clean, and the waitress knows us from going there regularly.) She was then talking about a table that got an $84 dollar check comped after they ate everything by making a stink. That shit do fly if you are loud enough.

 

[matrix-cat]

They don't. They just want special rules for the kind of games they make.

The current rules are already special for the kind of games they make. I imagine they want rules that put them on a level playing field with all the other developers that don't have to worry about buyers completing their games and then being allowed to get all their money back because they happen to be longer than the arbitrary time limit Valve set up.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I was at a restaurant last night, and we were talking with our waitress after we finished our food when she said "oh looks like you didn't like it, let me take it off your check." (Our plates were clean, and the waitress knows us from going there regularly.) She was then talking about a table that got an $84 dollar check comped after they ate everything by making a stink. That shit do fly if you are loud enough.

You've got to be kind of a dick to do that too (not that there's any shortage of dicks among the gaming community, I've heard of people pirating Humble Bundles ffs).

 

[Echoplx]

The current rules are already special for the kind of games they make. I imagine they want rules that put them on a level playing field with all the other developers that don't have to worry about buyers completing their games and then being allowed to get all their money back because they happen to be longer than the arbitrary time limit Valve set up.

Ok, hypothetically, assuming this even happens on a scale large enough to hurt developers, which no one has shown any evidence for by the way, If their games get special refund requirements, how many of those people abusing refunds to play the game for free would actually buy the game in the first place instead of just pirating it?

 

[Family Fry]

I remember people being annoyed with someone in another thread. On the free weekend of Rocket League they 1000/1000g the game and said they wouldn't buy it as they had completed it.

Devs who make smaller games should just make an achievement pop up at the beginning and end of the game.

5g - I've stared....
At the end.
5g So I'll finish.

Would be fairly harmless and it shows, at least on a main accounts, that the person has completed the game, if it's possible under 2 hours.

At the end of the day people are always going to abuse these systems but it's vital they are there. It's good that MS have taken the steps to be more consumer friendly via the digital store.

 

[MageBoySA]

You've got to be kind of a dick to do that too (not that there's any shortage of dicks among the gaming community, I've heard of people pirating Humble Bundles ffs).

Oh, I agree totally. Our waitress was actually really awesome, so we felt bad for her. But, yeah it every other industry you can get your money back for just about any reason if you are loud (and a dick.)

 

[DrArchon]

If you absolutely have to make a game that can be beaten in under 2 hours, then at least make it so compelling that at the end of that short-ass experience the player isn't thinking to themselves "damn, I want my money back."

Basing refunds on completion % is ridiculous. How would that even work?

 

[Castef]

Keep the 2 hours limit for refund.

Do not apply it to games which cost less than X dollars/euros. (Like 8/9...)

Problem solved.

 

[Timeaisis]

They would say that considering Dear Esther is like 2 hours.

 

[DrArchon]

Keep the 2 hours limit for refund.

Do not apply it to games which cost less than X dollars/euros. (Like 8/9...)

Problem solved.

What if you buy a cheap game that doesn't run on your PC? Are you just out of luck then?

 

[Pixieking]

If you absolutely have to make a game that can be beaten in under 2 hours, then at least make it so compelling that at the end of that short-ass experience the player isn't thinking to themselves "damn, I want my money back."

Basing refunds on completion % is ridiculous. How would that even work?

Olivia White‏ @owlcavedev Feb 26

Here's a fun stat: Since I took rights ownership of Charnel House Trilogy in November 2015, we've had 52 copies refunded.

Olivia White‏ @owlcavedev Feb 26
Replying to @owlcavedev

That's a less than 1% return rate. Charnel House is comfortably less than 2 hours long unless you REALLY drag your heels.

Olivia White‏ @owlcavedev Feb 26
Replying to @owlcavedev

Also Charnel House is an entirely linear narrative with no alternative endings or paths through the story.

This makes me want to play Charnel House more than any review of it - that so many people were ultimately so satisfied with the game/ending that they completed it under two hours and didn't refund.

 

[legacyzero]

I like a Tweet further down-

I agree on the surface, but there's so much more variables to this debate.

How many people here agreed that No Man's Sky shouldn't cost $60. There were people on this board that played the game for FIFTY HOURS, and then demanded refund.

I've put hundreds of hours into the game, and I'm still going. I think I've more than gotten my money's worth.

It's all so subjective.

 

[Castef]

What if you buy a cheap game that doesn't run on your PC? Are you just out of luck then?

You could always keep a minimum 20/30 minutes time period. Everyone would know in 20 minutes of testing if a game works properly on your platform.

 

[Pixieking]

You could always keep a minimum 20/30 minutes time period. Everyone would know in 20 minutes of testing if a game works properly on your platform.

I've spent over 30 minutes setting-up a decent Steam Controller config for games, not even getting past the first 5 minutes of the game in that time.

Edit: And if we narrow it to just console games, I've spent 20 or 30 minutes just getting used to controller schemes, without getting that far into the game (eff'ing Nioh ).

 

[Forsythia]

Yes there are assholes who abuse the system, but maybe if lots of people want to refund your game, the game itself is the problem.

 

[Castef]

I've spent over 30 minutes setting-up a decent Steam Controller config for games, not even getting past the first 5 minutes of the game in that time.

That makes no sense.

First check if the game runs decently on your platform, then configure the controls.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I honestly don't know what part of my post you're arguing against. I'm saying I would be more comfortable with 14 days being the only restriction because it's less unfair to short games.

Yeah, no; you should not be able to buy a game, play 100 hours of it, and return it. How does it benefit short games in any way that the 2 hour restriction is removed? "Fairness" only makes sense as an argument if you're concerned that everyone should be screwed equally; that short games somehow benefit from longer games being returned more often. This is not a zero sum game between short games and long games.

 

[D4Danger]

Keep the 2 hours limit for refund.

Do not apply it to games which cost less than X dollars/euros. (Like 8/9...)

Problem solved.

the "problem" doesn't need solving.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Consumer rights don't exist in some reality distortion field when it comes to games.

What I do or don't do with your product is none of your damn business. Returning a faulty product within a reasonable period means a full refund.

Keyword being "faulty". Dear Esther is not "faulty" in any way, so Steam refunding you is a right they extend on their own (and arguably at the dev's expense). That said, it is in line with returning something because you're personally dissatisfied with it, which is a pretty commonly, but not universally, observed consumer right.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Pixieking]

That makes no sense.

First check if the game runs decently on your platform, then configure the controls.

"runs decently" Is very subjective. If it crashes constantly, I should get a refund, however, "runs decently" can mean different thing to different people.

Besides, if I'm going to play a game, I prefer to set-up the controls at the start, not just wander around a bit to see if the performance is good. 2 hour refund window gives me time to config controls, and time to check stability of the actual game.

 

[Echoplx]

Keyword being "faulty". Dear Esther is not "faulty" in any way, so Steam refunding you is a right they extend on their own (and arguably at the dev's expense).

Edit: read it wrong

 

[-COOLIO-]

give the devs the option to make their games refundable or not.

then they can balance sales lost due to added risk to the consumer vs sales lost because people could complete their games in under 2 hours.

steam could throw up a big "this game is non refundable" before you buy disclaimer.

 

[Durante]

give the devs the option to make their games refundable or not.

No.

Publishers should not be able to opt out of parts of the platform feature set.

What's next, allowing them to disable screenshots?

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

give the devs the option to make their games refundable or not.

then they can balance sales lost due to added risk to the consumer vs sales lost because people could complete their games in under 2 hours.

steam could throw up a big "this game is non refundable" before you buy disclaimer.

Then no devs would do it.

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

I have no idea what alternate world some people on GAF are living in but if someone had completed a game and was able to get a refund without issue they would fucking do it regardless of it being "an incredible experience"

That shit would be abused to the moon and back.

 

[Akronis]

I don't think I like these guys


https://mobile.twitter.com/ChineseRoom/status/852577135348854786

Is this their official twitter???

That is...an embarrassing response.

 

[Pixieking]

give the devs the option to make their games refundable or not.

then they can balance sales lost due to added risk to the consumer vs sales lost because people could complete their games in under 2 hours.

steam could throw up a big "this game is non refundable" before you buy disclaimer.

Well, for one thing, it's not like "risk to the customer" is something everyone can apply to their situation. Games that crash, games that don't support certain controllers, games which don't have subtitles (for the deaf), or settings for colour-blind users, or controller set-ups for people with disabilities or impairments... All of these things are good reasons for wanting to refund.

For another, why should games be special? Other industries can cope with refunds - books, for instance. I can return a Kindle book to Amazon, so why can't I return a game I bought from Steam? The only reason why so many developers kick-up a fuss about refunds is because the development process for games is so front-loaded, with so few routes for a return on revenue.. And that ain't the consumer's fault.

Edit:

Return Kindle Books

You may be able to return books you bought from the Kindle Store for a refund if we receive your request within seven days of the date of purchase.

Tell me again how Steam's refund system is broken?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Then no devs would do it.

i disagree. i think most would still opt to make their games refundable.

 

[BrassDragon]

Keyword being "faulty". Dear Esther is not "faulty" in any way, so Steam refunding you is a right they extend on their own (and arguably at the dev's expense). That said, it is in line with returning something because you're personally dissatisfied with it, which is a pretty commonly, but not universally, observed consumer right.

Guess people don't check my posts beyond the one close to the OP, but okay... let's try this again.

On top of the 30-day return rule for faulty products there, EU consumer rights ALSO provide a 14-day return policy no-questions asked for services and products purchased online.

The only ones being wilfully ignorant of consumer rights are the ones who keep hammering on this point or clutching their pearls about the small percentage of people who abuse these proven consumer rights protections.

I also own Dear Esther with 1 hour playtime and no refund. That's the norm and TCR should stop treating their customers as the enemy.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I have no idea what alternate world some people on GAF are living in but if someone had completed a game and was able to get a refund without issue they would fucking do it regardless of it being "an incredible experience"

That shit would be abused to the moon and back.

And yet we have people with so many games left being unplayed.

 

[David___]

That makes no sense.

First check if the game runs decently on your platform, then configure the controls.

Performance is subjective

Not everyone had the same exact spec

 

[-COOLIO-]

Well, for one thing, it's not like "risk to the customer" is something everyone can apply to their situation. Games that crash, games that don't support certain controllers, games which don't have subtitles (for the deaf), or settings for colour-blind users, or controller set-ups for people with disabilities or impairments... All of these things are good reasons for wanting to refund.

For another, why should games be special? Other industries can cope with refunds - books, for instance. I can return a Kindle book to Amazon, so why can't I return a game I bought from Steam. The only reason why so many developers kick-up a fuss about refunds is because the development process for games is so front-loaded, with so few routes for a return on revenue.. And that ain't the consumer's fault.

Edit:

Return Kindle Books


Tell me again how Steam's refund system is broken?

hmmmm, as far as i'm aware, i still can't return movie purchases/rentals or music purchases on digital platforms.

app returns on android are limited to just 15 minutes from the time of purchase, or something around that.

No.

Publishers should not be able to opt out of parts of the platform feature set.

What's next, allowing them to disable screenshots?

but then, if the option was available, the option itself would be a part of the platform's feature set.

 

[YianGaruga]

What's next, allowing them to disable screenshots?

PS4 already does that. Because Japan

i disagree. i think most would still opt to make their games refundable.

Except for the shitty broken ones that need it the most. Refunds are before all else protection against shitty /publisherdeveloper practices

 

[benicillin]

Tell me again how Steam's refund system is broken?

Emphasis on "may be able," I'd imagine.

Refund policies are great, I think the 2 hour window is fine, but you can be sympathetic towards developers who make shorter experiences and understand that they're adversely affected by the specifics of the policy. I'm reminded of the guy who played Firewatch, made a post about how much he loved the game, but still was thinking about refunding it just because he could and he didn't "think it was worth the cost" despite really enjoying it. He didn't, ultimately, because the artist for the game publicly and passionately responded, but still.

 

[Pixieking]

hmmmm, as far as i'm aware, i still can't return movie purchases/rentals or music purchases on digital platforms.

Mmmm, it's not perfect, agreed. But you can refund physical purchases bought online, and, say, physical books bought in-store. And just because other industries are worse, does not mean we should complain about Valve's policies being open to abuse - their policies are better than some, worse than others. And in the games industry, they're about middle (I think GOG and EA are better? And Sony are worse?).

Emphasis on "may be able," I'd imagine.

Refund policies are great, I think the 2 hour window is fine, but you can be sympathetic towards developers who make shorter experiences and understand that they're adversely affected by the specifics of the policy. I'm reminded of the guy who played Firewatch, made a post about how much he loved the game, but still was thinking about refunding it just because he could and he didn't "think it was worth the cost" despite really enjoying it. He didn't, ultimately, because the artist for the game publicly and passionately responded, but still.

And you'll always get people like that - people who think the price they paid isn't commensurate with the value they received. But we shouldn't let an industry be guided by paranoia over the worst of humanity. It would be an awful shame to have PC (and XBox now) be tarred with the brush of "refunds are bad" after the platform has finally got the misinformation of "all PC gamers are pirates" out of the way.

 

[Smax]

Imagine if the film Industry made an arbitrary rule like: If you leave the movie theater in under 90 minutes from buying your ticket you can get a refund. Wouldn't someone who makes 80-minute films have a serious problem?

The 2-hour refund is wrong and obviously so is a proposed percentage refund. Personally I don't see a reason for refunds to exist other than for obvious technical reasons (the game doesn't run or crashes regularly, for example). You bought it, you don't like it, thems the breaks. It's not like it's an investment that will cripple you financially. I don't see refunds on books, movies, music, etc. If people end up not liking what they got, they try something else next time.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

One underappreciated benefit of a refund system is that it gives customers the freedom to try out games from genres they normally aren't into without the worry that they could potentially waste money.

Imagine if the film Industry made an arbitrary rule like: If you leave the movie theater in under 90 minutes from buying your ticket you can get a refund. Wouldn't someone who makes 80-minute films have a serious problem?

The 2-hour refund is wrong and obviously so is a proposed percentage refund. Personally I don't see a reason for refunds to exist other than for obvious technical reasons (the game doesn't run or crashes regularly, for example). You bought it, you don't like it, thems the breaks. It's not like it's an investment that will cripple you financially. I don't see refunds on books, movies, music, etc. If people end up not liking what they got, they try something else next time.

But there are examples of refunds/returns on those types of mediums.

 

[dgrdsv]

Paid money for that with no regrets. ^_^

Twice. Great game.

I also got to admit - I never refunded a game and I don't plan to in the future. I generally don't buy games which I wouldn't want to play, and even if they turn out to be bad somehow - I still bought them because I wanted to play them, right? So I won't refund them.

That's not to say that Chinese Room is right and refunds are in any way bad. I can totally see how someone less informed than I am about a game he's buying will actually buy something which he doesn't want to play in the first place. Current refund practices are fine IMO, no need to adjust anything, at least until all major digital stores will implement refunds as a feature.