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Dear Esther Developer The Chinese Room comment on game refunds

Developers should be allowed to set a lower limit of their own choosing, with some sort of reasonable minimum and a big notice on the store page. I like all sorts of games, including short, replayable stuff that is (presumably) especially hit by these blanket refund windows. I would hate it if all the short games went away because of these otherwise very cool refund policies.
 
Cday said:
Maybe you should make real games then.

What if someone spends time getting a game to work only to find out that it never will? They should eat money trying to get someone else's work to function on their machine because there are some """games""" you can "beat" in a pitiful amount of time? No.

Don't like it? Don't sell your walking simulators on Steam.
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Damn, you went there.
 
It's bullshit that people can buy a game, finish it completely within the refund window and then get all their money back; in a medium where nothing physical is changing hands and you're only paying for the experience, you've all but stolen the game. And any "well just make your game longer than 2 hours" arguments are just as bullshit.

I don't think refunds should be offered for products that aren't actually broken or falsely advertised, but then I don't have any bright ideas on how to enforce such a ruling. People are always going to try and game the system, but I imagine the current refund rules are pretty hard on developers of short games.
 
Maybe instead of a flat 2 hours for everything, they make it a case by case thing ranging from say 45 minutes being the minimum and 2 hours being the max, that way short games yoy can beat within 2 hours aren't fucked over. Percentage based would be really hard to implement, as some games make you do a hell of a lot to even break 10% until much much later on, for example playing Yakuza 5 and put about 20-25 hours in doing every available side activity so far and just finish Part 1, my completion percentage is around 11%-15%
 
matrix-cat said:
It's bullshit that people can buy a game, finish it completely within the refund window and then get all their money back; in a medium where nothing physical is changing hands and you're only paying for the experience, you've all but stolen the game. And any "well just make your game longer than 2 hours" arguments are just as bullshit.

I don't think refunds should be offered for products that aren't actually broken or falsely advertised, but then I don't have any bright ideas on how to enforce such a ruling. People are always going to try and game the system, but I imagine the current refund rules are pretty hard on developers of short games.
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Most people probably feel fine paying for an experience they enjoyed no matter if it is finished within the refund window. Most game stores in Australia offer 7 day no-question-asked return policies and the game industry is doing fine there. 2 hour refunds on Steam is nothing.
 
Two hour walking simulators shouldn't be called games. ;p

But seriously, if someone is satisfied with the game he won't refund it even when it's very short. If someone wants to play the game for free he'll download the pirated version anyway.
 
I saw numerous people on the steam community forums for Abzu bragging about beating it in less than 2 hours and refunding it. I didn't care much for Abzu but I beat it and didn't refund it, that's for sure. It seems sort of immoral to return something you beat for full price.
 
If you don't want customers getting refunds for your games after a couple hours, try making games that don't make them feel ripped off.
 
Maybe if they made it online only, added preorder skins, added shitty DLC that is pointless it will become a real game for some. 😉
 
Ratrat said:
Its very short. Like Journey.


That got trashed by critics.
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I'm not advocating pre-order culture, but you can't cancel digital pre-orders (what a scam).

That said, I think you can be confident you will like a game based on your research only to find you really don't. Or in the case of Battlefield 4, glowing reviews and you know you'll love it but the SP campaign had a save corrupting bug that still hasn't been fixed and it took about a month for EA to get 64 player Conquest working, which is the main draw for most players. Reviews didn't tell you it was broken.

Then there's day-1 review embargoes.
 
The fact that someone can complete a game, and then refund it, is shady as fuck, but impossible to stop, unless you remove the option completely.

The fact that it's a 2 hour game, or of a genre you don't like / don't think is worthy, means you should just move on to the next game.

Echoplx said:
Sorry, my rights as a consumer come before your bottom line.
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Except that their bottom line may just be the difference between breaking even and making a loss, I'm not sure it's your right to play something to conclusion and then refund it for no reason.
 
I wouldn't say that it's "very simple" but I totally get that the 2 hours flat limit works against creators of short games. I don't know what a better solution would be though. Maybe there could be tiers?

Also, meh at any non-game comment.
 
tsumineko said:
Most people probably feel fine paying for an experience they enjoyed no matter if it is finished within the refund window. Most game stores in Australia offer 7 day no-question-asked return policies and the game industry is doing fine there. 2 hour refunds on Steam is nothing.
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I imagine large video game retailers have pretty different profit margins and business models than small indie video game development studios. Two hour refunds on Steam is the difference between somebody paying you for the product you created and someone not paying you for the product you created but still experiencing it in its entirety.
 
BrassDragon said:
Consumer rights don't exist in some reality distortion field when it comes to games.

What I do or don't do with your product is none of your damn business. Returning a faulty product within a reasonable period means a full refund.
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Exactly this. Great post.
 
matrix-cat said:
I imagine large video game retailers have pretty different profit margins and business models than small indie video game development studios. Two hour refunds on Steam is the difference between somebody paying you for the product you created and someone not paying you for the product you created but still experiencing it in its entirety.
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Steam isn't a large video game retailer? Whether you return the game to Steam or a brick-and-mortar, it's still one less sale. What's your point?
 
It's an interesting idea though. But "percentage" is such an incredibly nebulous term. It would work pretty much only for the type of game TCR makes and pretty much nothing else.
Also, even if this system could be implemented in a fair way, developers should then be required to give the player an easy an reliable way to constantly check their progress. As a player I have no idea how much of the game is left. If I turn that corner, does that count as progress? Does the percentage suddenly jump up 15% if I push this button? etc.

I think there should be a different way for developers of very short games though. For example if your game can be beaten within 2+x hours the refund time shrinks to one hour. However in those cases it must be made 100% clear on the shop page that this is the case, so no consumer can be "tricked".

Cday said:
Maybe you should make real games then.

What if someone spends time getting a game to work only to find out that it never will? They should eat money trying to get someone else's work to function on their machine because there are some """games""" you can "beat" in a pitiful amount of time? No.
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Uhm, actually TCR's idea would help you in that case.
Terrible post
 
Consumer rights are non-negotiable. Developers should absolutely not have the power to set their own time limits. I don't consider developers and publishers to be any more trustworthy than customers, both sides may abuse the system. The solution to this 'problem' isn't to limit or kill consumer rights. The solution is to make a game that will satisfy your customers so that they don't ask for a refund. If anything the time limit should be increased.
 
LuchaRider said:
I agree in some part, if the game is short, let's say a 1 hour game, as soon you reach some point, the game should aknowledge your progress to invalidate a refund, in other games with a longer duration, the actual system works in my opinion.

Also this should be revisited in order to refund multiplayer games with a longer range, let's say 5 hours
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What about the consumers side? they will get pissy if they try to refund it and then got told that they cant because they are too deep into the game, when the gamer doesnt know how long the game is in the first place
 
Durante said:
It's even simpler.

Create a game which satisfies people so that they don't want to refund it.
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In addition, it's worth noting that length has nothing to do with it. Walking simulators like Dear Esther and Rapture are not only short; they have no replay value. There are arcade games on Steam that are even shorter but actually have engaging gameplay and incentives to return.

Sad Affleck said:
Consumer rights are non-negotiable. Developers should absolutely not have the power to set their own time limits. I don't consider developers and publishers to be any more trustworthy than customers, both sides may abuse the system. The solution to this 'problem' isn't to limit or kill consumer rights. The solution is to make a game that will satisfy your customers so that they don't ask for a refund. If anything the time limit should be increased.
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If I may add to that, Early Access games shouldn't even have time limits for refunds.
 
Some games are made to be played and completed in one sitting. That's why Journey is around 90-120 minutes. Dear Esther is the same. Making them longer isn't a solution.

But obviously, something like a "percentage of completion" system is a really dumb idea for a variety of reasons already outlined.
 
If people were really trying to scrounge games without paying I'm sure they'd pirate the game instead of completing it on a timer and then refunding. I'd imagine their refunds come mainly from people who are disappointed or surprised in the style of game they make and realise it isn't for them.
 
2 hour limits are bad for devs giving smaller game experiences at lower prices.

Percentage based limits are not the answer.

No, I don't know what is.
 
I enjoyed Dear Esther and I can see their point, but their solution is wrong. What needs to be done is that Steam needs to enforce a tiered system for video game software on their storefront, for this example let's just call them Tier A and Tier B. Tier A would be games sold at X amount and above and generally take much longer than 2 hours to complete, For Tier A Steam will give consumers the current 2 hour window to get a refund. Tier B games would be games sold for X amount and under and generally take only a few hours at most to complete, and even shorter than that for the people that are looking to rush through the game/experience as fast as possible. For these Tier B games Steam would give consumers a 1 hour window for refunds.

Currently, however, the problem for The Chinese Room and similar developers is that if they don't want Steam virtually giving their short games/experiences away for free then they need to develop longer games/experiences. That kind of opens a can of worms in regards to artistic intention for a game/experience, though, so I don't feel it's entirely fair to just counter their complaint with "Well, make a longer game, ya dingus". Niche devs like this should be afforded the opportunity to be protected by refund abuse and so hopefully Valve can meet them halfway and work something out.
 
BrassDragon said:
Consumer rights don't exist in some reality distortion field when it comes to games.

What I do or don't do with your product is none of your damn business. Returning a faulty product within a reasonable period means a full refund.
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If you manage to finish a short game in <2 hours it clearly wasn't 'faulty' so you shouldn't be able to return it
 
danmaku said:
In fairytale land, maybe. In the real world, people will do anything to save a few bucks, and they'll even brag about it. Why do you think people pirate super cheap indie games?
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But that kind of people aren't customers anyway. They'll only play if they can do it for free, so the devs didn't really have their money anyway. Downloading the game through Steam or torrent doesn't really change that.

justsomeguy said:
I love your optimism.
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Not treating your customers like criminals actually helps, you know.
 
Durante said:
It's even simpler.

Create a game which satisfies people so that they don't want to refund it.
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I honestly think that single-playthrough games (anything that tries to present a story or experience rather than something with replay) will always find people who would abuse it, regardless of how satisfied they are.

I think you are very optimistic about the average Steam user. :P
 
Echoplx said:
There are provisions in place to stop abuse, refund abuse is not a meaningful issue, and not something you should even consider sacrificing your rights over.
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There's no one here asking for refunds to be removed. No one. Not even TCR, they just want a system that's fairer for short games. A fixed 2 hour limit for ALL games is dumb. It's too long for certain games and too short for others.
 
Well, time for them to complain to Valve then the same way consumers had to for years and years to no avail, until the Australian government forced Valve to implement game refunds in the first place.
 
Blizzard said:
I honestly think that single-playthrough games (anything that tries to present a story or experience rather than something with replay) will always find people who would abuse it, regardless of how satisfied they are.

I think you are very optimistic about the average Steam user. :P
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I'm not. I just don't think it's a sufficiently important or widespread issue to change an exceedingly important, successful and simple policy over.
 
letmetrythisname said:
It wouldn't kill it. It would bring it some fucking quality control for once.
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I wouldn't kill it? How is a team supposed to work on a game for months if they don't know how much money they actually have? People could spend hundreds of hours with a game and then refund it a week before the game launches, leaving the developers with a massive debt.

This is insane. Simply don't buy EA games if you worry about the quality.
 
Tinfoilhatsron said:
2 hour limits are bad for devs giving smaller game experiences at lower prices.

Percentage based limits are not the answer.

No, I don't know what is.
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Right. There is a possibility that blanket refunds within 2 hours, across all digital stores might be a bad thing, in that it starts to effect viability of short games. The last thing I want is games to be padded out with more filler (enough of them already do that!)
 
Durante said:
I'm not. I just don't think it's a sufficiently important or widespread issue to change an exceedingly important, successful and simple policy over.
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Has there been much data about how widespread refunds are for single-playthrough games? I suppose Valve has NDAs which prevent people from generally sharing much.
 
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