Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
We're just talking about powers, not quality of writing. And since when did powers equate to terrible writing anyway?
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Death Battle: Son Goku vs. Superman 2
- Thread starter Nightbird
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We're just talking about powers, not quality of writing. And since when did powers equate to terrible writing anyway?
……forgetit
Member
You're missing my point. Every once in awhile in dragon ball someone will come up with a plan, that never works BTW, but in Marvel and DC the heroes are almost always outmatched or outclassed and have to find a way to trick the villians into defeating themselves or to do something stupid. An example would be Spiderman where the vast majority of his villians could soundly kick his ass if he doesn't come up with a creative way to defeat them, whether threw science or threw some crazy web trickery. Not "surprise ball of energy!!! or Reverse ball of energy!!!!
Manmademan
Member
Obviously they don't. Silver Surfer is still OP as fuck, but his current series is one of the more entertaining things marvel has put out recently. It's legitimately one of his best arcs.
this is one of the most fun things I've seen in a comic:
The X-men are having a hard time fighting vampires. So what do you do?
take iceman to a priest. bless him into holy water. WRECK SHIT
Armoured Titan
Member
The pressure point is something I decided to add there to show his versatility away from energy projection.
I forgot to mention that he can redirect energy projections back at the user who initiated it.
Still. This is someone whom we haven't seen much of skill wise and at the very least is shown to be a matter manipulator. Casually sneezes stars away. The envelope will only be pushed further in this series once the multi universal arc begins.
Manmademan
Member
if he's a matter manipulator, why fight goku at all? why not turn him into cheese? Buu turned him into a cookie, so he has no resistance to that sort of thing.
SixMachine
Member
Well he would a pretty damn strong cookie. When Vegito got turned into a jawbreaker he was whooping Mystic Buus ass still, so he turned him back to normal. But that shit is something you just run with, because people need to take in account Toriyama is also a gag manga writer too. Back when he made Dragonball he made a series about Arale, which was a little android girl who could split the earth with a karate chop and kick someone out of the solar system. She was much stronger than Goku at the time and since her manga constantly breaks the 4th wall, she probably is still stronger than Goku.
Like Goku got bopped by a rock from krillin in his sleep while in ssj, that stuff and countless other dbz stuff is usually just for a laugh.
That was Dabura. Buu did transform Vegito into candy, but he seemed to show some resistance by still having the ability to fight.
Armoured Titan
Member
Because he wanted to find out for himself whether the legend of SSJG really exists and to give himself a challenge. Sure, Goku could have been turned to Cheese and may have been able to fight back as a floating Cheese somewhat. But where's the point of the challenge he was after? I feel like he never really had the intention of killing Goku otherwise he would have one shotted Earth from the start. He was glad that Goku attained a new power up and was pushing him some more.
Also, don't tell me there haven't been plenty of times in Anime/Comics where a character doesn't utilise feats they've displayed in every fight. Why doesn't Superman defeat every opponent straight off the bat? Why not use heat vision within the first few seconds.
Manmademan
Member
right, candy, not a cookie. it's been a while. but the point is a matter manipulator wouldn't HAVE to get into fistfights to end someone. wiggle your fingers and the dude is now oxygen or something.
surfer does this all the time, because he's kind of a pacifist and hates fighting when he doesn't have to- he'll neutralize someone completely, give them a long winded speech about not being an asshole, and move on.
early on (before hulk got ridiculous) he figured out draining hulk of all his gamma and slapping him back to banner was a better option than beating his face in. This is what we mean by "versatility."
superman doesn't want to kill people, so has mental blocks against going all out. this is well established. Flash does the same thing, and it's spelled out in the scan earlier in the thread.
……forgetit
Member
As a comic guy I consider this the pot calling the kettle black, hell why didn't Beerus just make more pudding? Then we wouldn't have any of these problems. That said he didn't actually want to kill Goku, he wanted to find a worthy opponent. Hell, I'm wondering if he would have actually destroyed earth if there was no SSJG.
I don't think Babidi's powers should be downplayed. When not affected by PIS/CIS, he's a reality bending sorcerer who could teleport to anywhere in the universe. Babidi hijacked a billion people's brains while making visual/sound transmissions to them at the same time. He's not limited by range. Even after mind control, Babidi has the ability to dig deeper inside the person to physically amplify their powers while providing rejuvenated healing while making them ignore pain (Spopovich). On top of that he has powerful magical barriers.
Nothing special compared to Babidi.
His only limiting factor is that more of his mind control works on only those who have some malice in their desires. Still, give him his sphere and there's nothing stopping Babidi from teleporting all of DC's crew to a supermassive black hole.
Vegeta would probably not be affected by Aquaman trying to tap into his motor functions. But even before that most folks in DBZ would just speed blitz him.
Manmademan
Member
don't get me wrong, I understand why fights happen- but there doesn't seem to be any compelling evidence this dude has "matter manipulation" as an actual skill. just a crapload of energy projection.
……forgetit
Member
That's fair lol
This guy doesn't know new 52 captain cold, I have so much respect for that guy now I wish he'd
get his powers back
Armoured Titan
Member
I did mention both Anime/Comics. They were just two examples. And anyway, if he sees a threat does he always end it right there and then? If he doesn't want to kill, then why not send the threat into space in less than second and go all out on him there? Why not send them to the Sun?
He has mental block sure, but he has to lift them eventually anyway. Why not do it straight away?
It's a trope that you see in most mediums so it's a bit disingenuous to just single out Beerus for it.
Manmademan
Member
Interesting information about babidi, but it may be worth emphasizing that Aquaman's abilities work on white martians. They're all telepathic. not just "kinda" telepathic- they have identical abilities to Martian Manhunter, and that guy is a planetary level telepath. He's been in contact with all 7 billion minds at once, and resisted the abilities of villains on the same level.
Martians have MASSIVELY powerful minds and still went down to the Aqua-stroke.
……forgetit
Member
I don't think Babidi's powers should be downplayed. When not affected by PIS/CIS, he's a reality bending sorcerer who could teleport to anywhere in the universe. Babidi hijacked a billion people's brains while making visual/sound transmissions to them at the same time. He's not limited by range. Even after mind control, Babidi has the ability to dig deeper inside the person to physically amplify their powers while providing rejuvenated healing while making them ignore pain (Spopovich). On top of that he has powerful magical barriers.
Nothing special compared to Babidi.
His only limiting factor is that more of his mind control works on only those who have some malice in their desires. Still, give him his sphere and there's nothing stopping Babidi from teleporting all of DC's crew to a supermassive black hole.
Vegeta would probably not be affected by Aquaman trying to tap into his motor functions. But even before that most folks in DBZ would just speed blitz him.
This really highlights the different schools of thought between comic and dbz fans imo. In manga all telepathy is basically the same, Babidi's telepathy is incredibly strong, so obviously Aquaman is comparable, but comics don't work that way. Incredibly strong telepaths with high mental blocks would be affected by Aquaman's ability, not because it attacks the mind, but because it attacks the brain. It's biology, not sorcery. In comics two characters can have the same powers but they can be affected by very different things based on how those powers are derived.
Manmademan
Member
also another good way to put that. There's also (in marvel at least) a clear distinction between telepathy and mind control via magical means (enchantress), and via biological means (say, professor x).
resistance to one doesn't mean resistance to the other.
SixMachine
Member
I disagree with the conclusion about comics and manga fans, as someone who reads both. There are many other series where people argue constantly over the nuances of the powers. In Railgun for example Mikoto (and probably by extension her clones) won't be effected by telepathy from Aquaman because in the manga there is a telepath who can't manipulate her because Mikoto can control the electric current in her brain. On the flip side a mind reader from Index would probably work, because one way to put it is Railgun explores the "science" of the universe, while Index deals with magic. People argue what so and so can do when amped up and how the can someone else possibly harm Accelerator (who can control vectors) over a lot of things like what can be considered a vector (basically anything with amplitude and direction).
I mean, Babidi exploded a dude's head. That's pretty obviously biological.
……forgetit
Member
I have no idea what railgun is, but you're right. I shouldn't generalize Manga fans with DBZ fans. Some that I don't know could work under similar rules as "the big two" which the manga you're describing seems too.
Manmademan
Member
I would actually consider this a valid reason why that telepathic attack wouldn't work, to be honest.
It doesn't just say "he/she could resist because willpower" but gives a specific biological explanation why aquaman's abilities (which are related to the brain's evolution from sea creatures, who he has control over) may not work.
against enchantress or similar though, probably not valid since that sort of mind control doesn't depend on brain biology.
……forgetit
Member
He used magic to blow up his head.....really different when he's straight up said to be a sorcerer. I shouldn't have to explain that you can use the supernatural to affect biology. That guy who described Railgun, seriously my first time hearing about that one, describes it very well.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah Babidi is magical whereas Aquaman isn't.
Also there's stuff like elemental control vs. raw magic, cosmic force being different from magic, etc.
Like for instance Green Lantern isn't magical.
Also there's stuff like elemental control vs. raw magic, cosmic force being different from magic, etc.
Like for instance Green Lantern isn't magical.
Manmademan
Member
Yeah I realize, they can also make other nearby starsystems uninhabitable as well due to radiation. The explosion of s Supernova is measured in flipping astronomical units. I know full well how absurd a supernova is, it's DC that doesn't seem to realize how catastrophic something like this would be.
Edit: BTW, I looked up how much energy it'd take to destroy a star, and the best figure I could find way 5.09x10^37 megatons of TNT. To put it into visual terms, you would need a chunk of anti-matter half the size of the sun, then you would need to drop it into a sun.
So, basically, if I'm doing the math right, you'd need about a supernova of force.
Manmademan
Member
Toonforce and highly esoteric power sets can often trump characters with lots of raw power.
Captain Carrot solo's all lol
Probably a similar thing that happens in that comic lolyou would run into DC's own gag characters though, and then where would you be?
Manmademan
Member
Let's be fair, Alfred took one of Superman's 5U93R pills after Batman replicated one of them (basically a Super-pill that gives anyone Superman's strength).
Supes ain't shit, he got beaten by Alfred of all people.
GG
Manmademan
Member
injustice also isn't canon, so there's that as well.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Injustice is really Bat pandering to the max. But that's what you must do to sell JL nowadays, which is sad.
I always thought the green flame was cosmic in nature.
I always thought the green flame was cosmic in nature.
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
VanquishUK
Member
They've said in both videos that they use the strongest version of both characters.
Mind you if they used the true strongest version of Superman (Superman Prime), he could have just removed Goku from existence in a fraction of a second.
Wow, I haven't seen people use the term "Toonforce" in a long time. Outskirts Battledome forum, am I right? Used to look at that place all the time.
Oh geeze
Hm the only nuclear winter i personally know of is in "The Dark Knight Returns" (Goku would have destroyed that Supes tho, lol Miller), but then again my comics knowledge is mostly limited to all those old Supes, Batman and Flash comics from the seventies. Great Batman and Flash comics, but the writers clearly didn't know what to do with Supes at the time.
Not sure why this Death Battle was redone. Not enough new things have transpired in the Dragon Ball Universe (did they include SSGSS or just SSG?) to make a redo interesting. Plus, as was established in the last battle (if someone didn't already know), Superman has been written by like 135341 different writers and thus has access to 25132532 different powers and forms, many of which are just straight, uninteresting bullshit (see Superman Prime). Goku's never winning this fight.
Shamrock7r
Member
You should try watching the video, and hey, Superman Prime was awesome. DC 1 Million was awesome
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Why do people associate powerful characters to poor writing? Hell if anything it's usually the other way around I'm seeing.
I think I saw some people using the term a few times on the Who Would Win reddit. Seemed like a good term for cartoony feats in general.
The more powerful the protagonist, the more difficult it is to create a sense of suspension for the reader. It's not so much that it automatically makes the writing bad, it just tends to expose writers whose capabilities are more limited.
Emperor_EL
Member
Superman: Camelot Falls. Specifically Superman 657
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Eh, personally that just means you can get creative.
"Less powerful" characters have a tendency to be written that gives them bullshit plot armor and deus ex machina.
Manmademan
Member
I just got this. Groanworthy
Eh, personally I think relying too heavily on deus ex machina is a bad writing move. Rather, for characters like Superman, I think it's smarter to give him challenges that he can't punch his way out of.
Not that this solves his other major shortfall, being that many people find his personality a bit flat. Better banter would help with that quite a bit.
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