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Debate Thread: Why is Valve making L4D2 instead of continuing L4D1 DLC?
- Thread starter Akia
- Start date
I agree with this, if I get it. I've basically been reminded that (especially once I got all the new weapons) TF2 is quite fun and should help serve my multiplayer time well. Most of my friends play that, not L4D, and I can just play one quick game if I want to, instead of a 2-hour versus chunk of time complete with server crashes, lengthy lobby setups, servers not being found, awful lag, lag or stuttery zombies even with decent ping, only four normal campaigns, and so forth.Baha said:
And as someone already pointed out, I probably won't be missed too much by people who do play it.
Botolf can snipe some smokers in my memory.Mammothtank
Member
I don't think I'll buy L4D 2. I didn't see anything they couldn't have just added to the original game as DLC. This is sickening...
Left 4 Dead 2010, 2011, 2012, etc...
Left 4 Dead 2010, 2011, 2012, etc...
I will end up buying this so I'm glad it's coming out. I do, however, hope they implement a way to launch L4D1 and 2 maps from the same lobby. I don't want to have to switch back and forth between the two games so it would be nice if they can combine it into one package.
Also, I hope they add dynamic environments for L4D2 with maps starting with different times of day and maybe with changing weather, fog, etc. Daylight just doesn't make it as immersive compared with the dark buildings with nothing but a flashlight on your gun.
Also, I hope they add dynamic environments for L4D2 with maps starting with different times of day and maybe with changing weather, fog, etc. Daylight just doesn't make it as immersive compared with the dark buildings with nothing but a flashlight on your gun.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Scrow said:
The answer to both questions is the same. L4D did obscenely well on 360.
CajoleJuice
Member
Yeah, this is why I stopped playing L4D too.Blizzard said:
Zeouterlimits
Member
It's really odd yes.
Could this have been a Valve interest thing?
Has all the work they've put in TF2 not sold enough extra copies?
5 Campaigns do seem like alot to just put out in dlc....
Hurm.
Will be interesting to see how Valve talk about this.
Could this have been a Valve interest thing?
Has all the work they've put in TF2 not sold enough extra copies?
5 Campaigns do seem like alot to just put out in dlc....
Hurm.
Will be interesting to see how Valve talk about this.
I find this an idiotic topic.
Companies do this. Sport titles are yearly, we pay for the same game basically year after year. Call of Duty franchise is yearly. We have Epic and Bungie/MS requesting more Green Bills from us for their "added content" maps and the like.
Yet the difference here with Valve is that they have given us massive amounts of love over the years, free love, and when it wasn't free, it was cheap as hell. I have the full Orange Box for the PC for $10. They have given me a fully operational achievement system, friends list, and store. They constantly make high quality games for my entertainment. They entertain us for free with promotional videos for current games and great updates to their websites. They update their current games for free mostly, increasing the life span of their projects.
And the one moment they go a direction of releasing another Left 4 Dead a year later, with more content and story, the wolves come out and rip em to shreds.
You do not have to purchase it.
You can wait for price drops.
You aren't forced to do anything you do not want to do.
So stfu, grow some brains and deal.
Companies do this. Sport titles are yearly, we pay for the same game basically year after year. Call of Duty franchise is yearly. We have Epic and Bungie/MS requesting more Green Bills from us for their "added content" maps and the like.
Yet the difference here with Valve is that they have given us massive amounts of love over the years, free love, and when it wasn't free, it was cheap as hell. I have the full Orange Box for the PC for $10. They have given me a fully operational achievement system, friends list, and store. They constantly make high quality games for my entertainment. They entertain us for free with promotional videos for current games and great updates to their websites. They update their current games for free mostly, increasing the life span of their projects.
And the one moment they go a direction of releasing another Left 4 Dead a year later, with more content and story, the wolves come out and rip em to shreds.
You do not have to purchase it.
You can wait for price drops.
You aren't forced to do anything you do not want to do.
So stfu, grow some brains and deal.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Mash said:
So they're not selling out, but it's still a pretty shitty thing to do to consumers who bought L4D expecting Valve to follow-through with their promises. I mean, let's keep in mind that not only did Valve promise L4D downloadable content along the same lines as TF2, but they promised it before L4D was even on store shelves.
I know every single time I heard the complaint that L4D was light on content a little voice in the back of my head went "That's okay. Valve promised DLC. It'll eventually be worth the price of admission."
Because that's what Valve does. I remember when I got Half-Life 2 Silver for, what? $75? Came with Half-Life 1, 2, Opposing Force, Ricochet, TFC, Counter-Strike 1.6, Counter-Strike Source, Counter-Strike CZ, CZ Deleted Scenes, Day of Defeat, and HL1: Source.
Eventually that would also come to include Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Blue Shift, Day of Defeat Source, and Lost Coast, free of charge.
Zeouterlimits said:
5 campaigns is a lot to put out all at once, yes. But if Valve had been supporting Left4Dead with DLC as they originally promised, one new campaign every 2-4 months is pretty much what I expected to happen and would bring us to about the same number.
wayward archer
Member
Sega1991 said:
Sorry, but Valve did not release the equivalent of one new campaign every 2-4 months for TF2. That's an unrealistic expectation for them. Even moreso when you consider that a L4D map (1 map, not even an entire campaign of 5 maps) is much more complicated than a TF2 map in which all the buildings are cartoon-ish and have much simpler geometry, and don't have to be balanced for asymmetrical teams.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
wayward archer said:
Class updates are bi-monthly and generally contain three new maps, three new weapons, and occasionally, a new gametype.
As for complexity, I don't think you really know what you're talking about.
ThaiGrocer
Member
I'm guessing that L4D2 is funding for a major overhaul to their source engine. Can't wait for Half-Life 3!
My philosophy is if the game isn't worth the price of admission at release, then wait. I was there from release, but I wasn't anticipating buying the game until I tried the demo. The demo for L4D convinced me that I would have a world of fun with the game, and I did. It was worth every cent. I'm still having fun with it.Sega1991 said:
It would have been nice to have a lot of these improvements and new things as DLC. If the decision to go sequel instead of DLC results in something we wouldn't have got otherwise (whether that be smaller or not as complete), I think Valve's decision to go bigger was justified. I'll still wait to hear about what this new game will offer before I hand over more money, though. Their E3 showing was a tiny portion of what the new game has inside.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Botolf said:
I guess it was my mistake trusting a company not to bend me over and give me the business. :\
wayward archer
Member
Sega1991 said:
Gold Rush Update (april 08) - 1 new map, 3 upgrades for doctor, 1 new gametype.
Pyro update (june 08) - 2 new maps picked from the community (0 valve maps), 3 pyro upgrades, no new gametypes.
Heavy update (aug 08) - 3 new valve maps, 3 upgrades for heavy, 1 new gametype
Scout update (feb 09) - 3 new maps, 3 scout upgrades, 0 new gametypes
Spy + Sniper (May 09) - 3 new maps, 6 upgrades, 1 new gametype
That's 2 campaigns worth of content in almost 2 years. That's not considering that most of those new maps are arena maps, either.
And think what you like, I've made source maps before though. Most of the tf2 maps are just mirrored for both sides, the arena maps are incredibly small (maybe 1/3 of the average L4D map), and only have to be checked against the same ground based classes that both teams have avaliable.
For a more technical answer, the apartment building in the first hospital level alone has more brushes in it than the average arena TF2 map.
Inflammable Slinky
Member
How is this not going to completely kill the original L4D? If they add new weapons, new zombies, and fix corner camping, along with the better AI director, won't this mean that the first becomes a mass migration out? This is a super shitty decision on their part, since it effectively does split the community. And even if enough players stay in the original, you are a god damned fool if you think that game will be getting any more content patches.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Valve has to already be rich as fuck.ThaiGrocer said:
Ken Masters
Banned
because it's all about $$$$
It's obvious. They're doing it for the money. It's not like Valve to release a sequel so soon after the original though, even if they could make a ton of money. Half-Life 2 took forever, as have the subsequent HL2 episodes!
I guess L4D was a bigger money maker than the other IPs? And the 360 sales were pretty good, so maybe that's partially the reason. Historically, Valve games have not sold well on consoles.
I guess L4D was a bigger money maker than the other IPs? And the 360 sales were pretty good, so maybe that's partially the reason. Historically, Valve games have not sold well on consoles.
It has nothing to do with expecting a company to change plans (That's all that is happening here, the cries of "omg Valve is dead", "Valve has traded its integrity for cash" are bordering on ridiculous). It has everything to do with what you consider worth your money. If you can't justify the purchase from day one, then don't purchase. Plans can and do change, committing to purchases you feel good about from day one is the soundest bet you can make.Sega1991 said:
Valve didn't make you a promise, they made a statement of their intended plans.
BobsRevenge said:
Maybe not, they aren't publicly traded so they can throw out whatever numbers they want. Perhaps they're over extended and needed a quick capital infusion. Can't sell Portal 2 as a standalone $60 games on consoles so they repurpose their L4D content updates into a new game, expand it a bit and charge $60. The margins on this game have to be huge.
Aegus said:
I have no idea, and neither do you. We can assume they're making a ton of money true, but we don't know what kind of costs they are running into with various developments. Also, they haven't announced a publisher yet. Maybe their return wasn't what they would have liked on L4d when partnering with EA?
MightyHedgehog
Member
I thought they said there were major game loop rewrites that required that a new final game would have to exist as some of the new features could not happen otherwise...or, at least, not very easily...especially for X360 being gated off by Live's design.
Kamakazie!
Member
Very unfinished? How so exactly? There wasn't a huge amount of content but what was tehre was polished as fuck. How many hours did you play the game for?Xyphie said:
This comment has come up time and time again, as has the "nothing that couldn't be put in an update" sort of thing.
If that is the case then nearly every sequel created could have just been released as DLC. Bioshock 2, MW2, GoW2.... basically any game that runs on the same engine as it's predecessor (or a slightly upgraded engine).
L4D2 is going to be bigger than the first game with just the new content. let alone what they might do with the originals in terms of add-ons.
If this wasn't a Valve game then no one would even bat an eye-lid. You lot are just spoilt from the TF2 updates.
Even as someone who will buy this for the 360, it seems extremely stupid that this isn't an add-on for the PC. Even if it was a paid download for like 25-30 bucks, it would be much better. It just doesn't make sense. That is one of the bonuses for playing on the PC over consoles.
I played the game for...many hours, I would say. There are many others such as PillowKnight or Red Scarlet who have also probably played it a lot. Ask them if you don't believe me about how many bugs or glitches were in the game and got patched (eventually). Plus each time Valve introduces new patches in L4D or TF2, they typically introduce several new glitches that take a few days to a week or more to fix.Kamakazie! said:
Not to mention the 4 months or whatever it took them to get more than two campaigns "ready" for versus mode, and of those two, hardly anyone liked playing Death Toll in my experience because of invisible walls and not very balanced gameplay.
Oh, and the 360 version didn't get many of the bugs fixed until months after the PC version, if I recall correctly, but that's to be expected.
Hopefully I exercise same restraint and this is my final comment on the subject. I wonder if the reason there's such a difference in viewpoints between the console and PC side has to do with what you're buying. Maybe PC gamers do have an entitlement complex, but that's because of the delivery system.
On console, you spend your 60 dollars and you own a tangible product. You don't like it, your network doesn't play nice with it, you get bored... you sell it. And you recoup a large chunk of your money.
Valve on PC is you buy, you own it. You realize after 2 hours you don't like it, or network settings are janky for some reason, you own it. You've paid 50 dollars for a 2 hour rental.
But there's always been a covenant between Valve and their customer. Don't worry about it. Pre-order on day one without worries because: 1.) You'll get your money's worth 2.) If there are technical problems/balance issues, we support are games forever and we'll address it.
The second thing on that list is the thing I feel was neglected on L4D with their shift in policy. And that's why many of us are feeling we have to be much more wary about what they're doing. The rules have changed.
On console, you spend your 60 dollars and you own a tangible product. You don't like it, your network doesn't play nice with it, you get bored... you sell it. And you recoup a large chunk of your money.
Valve on PC is you buy, you own it. You realize after 2 hours you don't like it, or network settings are janky for some reason, you own it. You've paid 50 dollars for a 2 hour rental.
But there's always been a covenant between Valve and their customer. Don't worry about it. Pre-order on day one without worries because: 1.) You'll get your money's worth 2.) If there are technical problems/balance issues, we support are games forever and we'll address it.
The second thing on that list is the thing I feel was neglected on L4D with their shift in policy. And that's why many of us are feeling we have to be much more wary about what they're doing. The rules have changed.
What kind of hogwash is this?1-D_FTW said:
1) Pre-ording games blindly is a dumb thing to do period, no matter the developer. They don't design games for you personally, there's bound to be more than a few projects that wind up not interesting or satisfying you.
2) Not forever, and not a covenant. Long-time support is a bonus, what you pay for one day one is what you get on day one. It should be incredibly obvious that if you know you aren't going to be pleased with a purchase at release, you shouldn't have bought it in the first place.
Kamakazie! said:
Ha, no. Game shipped with several bugs and exploits that were fixed over time on the PC and eventually fixed on the 360 when the survival mode dlc hit. 2 of the 4 initial campaigns weren't vs mode ready until 5-6 months later, and we've only received 1 new map via survival mode. The game still has its exploits/bugs even after the quick patch shortly after survival mode was released.
That said, it is a damn fine game and one that I have poured hundreds of hours into. I'm just not satisfied with the announced bullet points of L4D 2, everything about the sequel feels like dlc. This is coming from a L4D PC gamer, mind you.
Timekiller
Member
What's all this whining about? Now, wait a second.
I bought the game a few weeks after the release, paying 40 euros for it. Just to compare this to some other recent activities, I paid 7 euros for some 1 hour and a half hollywood crap summer movie the other day, or 16 euros for a decent book one week ago (lasted a week).
L4D provided at least...don't know, i guess at least 80 hours of fun and thought-provoking entertainment and quality time with some friends and random people since the day i got it. The game still has a few months of life up ahead, and i suppose it will be enough for squeezing a lot more hours from it, especially from the survival mode. Already very well worth the money spent, imho.
Then...
The technology is the same, but the contexts are so different, so i think that L4D will still be running after L4D2 will hit the market. It's like looking at Half Life and HL Blue Shift, they can work together as a double way to experience the same premises, and especially if they can find a way to merge the games together somehow, they will really feel like a single thing.
Yea, just think about it.
Valve style: L4D2 could merge with L4D, even shipping like a sort of "L4D:The Green Box" like the Orange Box did for who missed the first. The L4D2 weapons and some content (like possibly some of the new special infected) could be passed over to the L4D campaigns (and viceversa) with a few minutes of patching, making the games one single whole thing, but with two radically different sides to choose from, like a coin (one is night and skyscrapers, one is daylight and wooden houses, one is rainy and cold, one is sunny and hot 'n humid, and so on).
When i'll grow the same amount of confidence with both games, i still will boot both, depending on which mood i'm in, and what kind of scenario i want to play in that moment - something dark and gloomy, or something suffocating and desperate.
And this doesn't really prove that new content won't be produced at all for the first one, or that the price will still made this second chapter a worth full-price buy anyway.
I bought the game a few weeks after the release, paying 40 euros for it. Just to compare this to some other recent activities, I paid 7 euros for some 1 hour and a half hollywood crap summer movie the other day, or 16 euros for a decent book one week ago (lasted a week).
L4D provided at least...don't know, i guess at least 80 hours of fun and thought-provoking entertainment and quality time with some friends and random people since the day i got it. The game still has a few months of life up ahead, and i suppose it will be enough for squeezing a lot more hours from it, especially from the survival mode. Already very well worth the money spent, imho.
Then...
The technology is the same, but the contexts are so different, so i think that L4D will still be running after L4D2 will hit the market. It's like looking at Half Life and HL Blue Shift, they can work together as a double way to experience the same premises, and especially if they can find a way to merge the games together somehow, they will really feel like a single thing.
Yea, just think about it.
Valve style: L4D2 could merge with L4D, even shipping like a sort of "L4D:The Green Box" like the Orange Box did for who missed the first. The L4D2 weapons and some content (like possibly some of the new special infected) could be passed over to the L4D campaigns (and viceversa) with a few minutes of patching, making the games one single whole thing, but with two radically different sides to choose from, like a coin (one is night and skyscrapers, one is daylight and wooden houses, one is rainy and cold, one is sunny and hot 'n humid, and so on).
When i'll grow the same amount of confidence with both games, i still will boot both, depending on which mood i'm in, and what kind of scenario i want to play in that moment - something dark and gloomy, or something suffocating and desperate.
And this doesn't really prove that new content won't be produced at all for the first one, or that the price will still made this second chapter a worth full-price buy anyway.
At first I was mad at Valve for doing this, but after thinking about it I realized that I have played the hell out of L4D since getting it soon after it released. I've most certainly gotten my money's worth out of it, and then some, which is more than I can say for most of the games I own and I appreciate that, so I can forgive Valve. The more I read about the new content in L4D 2 the more excited (and less mad) I get. I imagine L4D 2 will provide even more hours of gameplay for me than the first one, and at this point (and especially by November) I don't mind paying full price for that experience.
Future PhaZe
Member
Wait L4D2 is more of a traditional 4 player campaign experience rather than the disconnected scenario structure of the first?
That's a + in my book but the gameplay doesn't seem to be consistent with that change. The system in place for the first game was perfect because you were expected to fail and do a number of scenarios over and over again, but the thought of going through a more traditional campaign experience with a fair amount of repetition in terms of boss types and enemies is kind of meh. At the end of the day its not much different from the original, but the flow and "repetition" of the game is more acceptable with L4D1's structure.
That's a + in my book but the gameplay doesn't seem to be consistent with that change. The system in place for the first game was perfect because you were expected to fail and do a number of scenarios over and over again, but the thought of going through a more traditional campaign experience with a fair amount of repetition in terms of boss types and enemies is kind of meh. At the end of the day its not much different from the original, but the flow and "repetition" of the game is more acceptable with L4D1's structure.
wayward archer
Member
Dark FaZe said:
The campaign stuff is more for flavor than anything else, as opposed to the seemingly totally disconnected stories of the first game. Each level of the campaign will still be a stand alone adventure and you don't have to play through them in any particular order. The bosses and all the enemies are still generated dynamically as in the first game.
They had a similar setup for the first game and decided to remove it for some reason near the end of development. From a gameplay standpoint it won't make much of a difference.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Botolf said:
And when has Valve ever been untrustworthy? Maybe a little dodgy when it comes to meeting deadline, but any good chef knows when to say "It's gonna need another 10 minutes before it's fully cooked." I consider that a plus. It means they know how to make good software, something their track record proves.
Just because they didn't make me a promise, also does not make this situation any less shitty. I get that Valve is a business and businesses need to make money, but Valve was never the sort of business that would take money over integrity. As was repeatedly stated, Valve was a company known for respecting their customers a great deal - way more than most corporate entities.
Left4Dead 2 turns its back on all of that. In the history of Valve Software, it just doesn't make any sense. Nothing in L4D2 is beyond the scope of what happened to Team Fortress 2 via free DLC.
I'm not going to be one of those weirdos who condemns the company forever based on this one decision, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or support it. This is not a direction I want Valve to go, and I would think most people would agree that even the slightest, tiniest sliver of a possibility that Left4Dead will become a full price, annual franchise is pretty terrible.
I'm sure that for those people who got crazy addicted to Left4Dead it's exciting, but to somebody like me (who really, really enjoyed Left4Dead, just not enough to play it every day since launch) the announcement of a sequel 7 months later is not appetizing at all.
This has nothing to do untrustworthiness. Valve's plans have changed in the past, release dates that were once concrete have slipped, etc, etc, etc. It makes them fallible, not untrustworthy.Sega1991 said:
This entire project was spawned not out of a desire to chase money, Valve's ambition simply out-scoped the framework of DLC. A lot of you have suggested monetary motives and showed nothing to support it. It's Valve's word against yours, which is more credible? Sure, they're talking about themselves, but as far as I know, the lot of us know nothing about Valve's inner finances.
It's worrying, yes, but I still believe that this is the same Valve we're buying from here, the same Valve that can be very direct with its fans and that likes to deal with its fans honestly.
Welp, that sucks. I'm not angry, just kind of disappointed. TF2 has been my favourite game since Deus Ex came out, and I was hoping for more of the same when L4D was coming out. Unfortunately, it looks like it'll never get even close, and I more than likely won't bother with L4D2 since there's enough stuff coming out in the fall (and hopefully TF2 will still be getting support). I really hope this isn't the new Valve, and that it's just for L4D, but I'm not really confident in that.
This is so sad. The "update" is just repacking maps that modders made. At least when they do this on TF2, they include all the class update stuff also.
This is so sad. The "update" is just repacking maps that modders made. At least when they do this on TF2, they include all the class update stuff also.
Yackie said:
Ditto with me, except I jumped in with the free weekend a month or so ago... And have been playing it nonstop since. You pretty much nailed it with your post though, for me. I watched those videos from the Shack, and I was just smiling in seeing how fun it was going to be to play. The axe looks fun as heck to use.