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[TheCrazyGuru]

I'm still fuming a bit from my Ravens losing that game to the Patriots (so close sigh). Wish we would have knocked them off to ensure the cheaters didn't have a chance to win another Superbowl.

Hopefully most people will be rooting for the Seahawks in the Superbowl to ensure that cheating isn't rewarded.

 

[Jarmel]

"Ok ref, here is the one specific ball I've been digging around for in my bag."

"Hmm, this seems kinda heavy compared to the other ones"

"Don't worry about the little details"

 

[woodypop]

I will second Kharvey in that if the refs checked them and said it was ok then the fault is to blame with the refs. My profession is an educator and as an educator, you need to know that people will not follow your rules just because. It is up to you to enforce and to penalize. As a ref and the enforcer of the rules, it is your job to check and makes sure everything is in parameters. The mistake lies on your feet unless you can prove some sort of subterfuge. Bosses take the fall if they check something incorrectly that their underlings do and the same in this scenario barring and subterfuge.

And if there is subterfuge? What then?

 

[Sanjuro]

I'm still fuming a bit from my Ravens losing that game to the Patriots (so close sigh). Wish we would have knocked them off to ensure the cheaters didn't have a chance to win another Superbowl.

Hopefully most people will be rooting for the Seahawks in the Superbowl to ensure that cheating isn't rewarded.

You mean the cheating Ravens in the NFL or the bird?

 

[VeryGooster]

Start Jimmy G!

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I'm still fuming a bit from my Ravens losing that game to the Patriots (so close sigh). Wish we would have knocked them off to ensure the cheaters didn't have a chance to win another Superbowl.

Hopefully most people will be rooting for the Seahawks in the Superbowl to ensure that cheating isn't rewarded.

Yea, the Ravens sure have a clean track record.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

I'm still fuming a bit from my Ravens losing that game to the Patriots (so close sigh). Wish we would have knocked them off to ensure the cheaters didn't have a chance to win another Superbowl.

Hopefully most people will be rooting for the Seahawks in the Superbowl to ensure that cheating isn't rewarded.

except there are some people out there who considers the Seahawks as cheaters too. Seriously just quit watching NFL pro football as your team may not ever win a super bowl again during your life time and there will always be some type of gates thing going on or allegations of some sort.

 

[Fletcher]

Ravens lost that on their own. Flacco shouldn't have been throwing when they should've been running the clock down.

 

[Jonm1010]

This is not happening. If the balls were provided to the referees to be evaluated and they allowed underinflated balls to be used in the game, that wouldn't be cheating to me. If the balls were modified after being examined by the referees that would be cheating.

Personally I don't think it's likely the refs did that, but that's what was being discussed. At this point though, we have absolutely no idea what the NFL has tested or if they even believe balls were deflated intentionally.

Can you quote and link the specific part of the rule book that says that if a team knowingly provides under inflated balls but the refs fail to catch it that the team that provides under inflated balls is no longer held responsible?

I realize that you have been asserting this as fact since our discussion has began but have not qualified it.

 

[cdyhybrid]

except there are some people out there who considers the Seahawks as cheaters too. Seriously just quit watching NFL pro football as your team may not ever win a super bowl again during your life time and there will always be some type of gates thing going on or allegations of some sort.

Sure, there are some people that think that, but we don't have anywhere near the rap sheet you guys do!

When it comes to cheating we have a lot to learn, maybe we should trade for Belicheat and Tammy!

 

[Big-E]

And if there is subterfuge? What then?

Then you penalize. The NFL makes the rules and enforces the rules. If people are breaking the rules, you penalize and punish. The NFL can't punish in this case as they pretty much sanctioned the balls and gave them their approval by saying they were ok. If there is evidence that there was altered tampering or subterfuge then you can penalize. Bringing back to the school analogy, if you take a test that the school says you passed then you passed. They can't say you didn't pass because a teacher marked a question wrong after the fact the score was given unless their is proof of cheating. You don't punish others for mistakes that you made.

 

[numble]

Numble, you've joined a conversation mid stream. If you need clarification regarding the parameters of the discussion, ask and I'll be happy to provide it.

I did ask--which rules do you think are not being broken and why do you not think other rules do not apply?

 

[FaintColt388301]

Oh come the fuck on...

"Hey ball boy go grab "#12" and sneak it out here we need THAT ball"

The fact that this came out to be true makes me not discount anything. I can see it being their special teams ball. Haha.

 

[Duke Togo]

The hubris to even attempt to under inflate all but one game ball and assume it won't be detected. Truly astounding.

 

[Jarmel]

The fact that this came out to be true makes me not discount anything. I can see it being their special teams ball. Haha.

Oh wow, that actually does make sense in that case.

 

[woodypop]

Then you penalize. The NFL makes the rules and enforces the rules. If people are breaking the rules, you penalize and punish. The NFL can't punish in this case as they pretty much sanctioned the balls and gave them their approval by saying they were ok. If there is evidence that there was altered tampering or subterfuge then you can penalize. Bringing back to the school analogy, if you take a test that the school says you passed then you passed. They can't say you didn't pass because a teacher marked a question wrong after the fact the score was given unless their is proof of cheating. You don't punish others for mistakes that you made.

But this is what I'm getting at. What if it turns out there is proof the Patriots cheated?

 

[Celestia]

Deflatriots.

 

[BadAss2961]

The fact that this came out to be true makes me not discount anything. I can see it being their special teams ball. Haha.

I wouldn't put it past them either. It's probably no coincidence that all but 1 ball (out of 12) are 2 pounds light.

 

[RedAssedApe]

Sure, there are some people that think that, but we don't have anywhere near the rap sheet you guys do!

When it comes to cheating we have a lot to learn, maybe we should trade for Belicheat and Tammy!

naw...you got your own sith lord in pete carroll. knows plenty about cheating. no need for that trade

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Deflatriots.

lol, that has a nice ring to it. I like Cheat Carroll better though or cheaty petey.

 

[Sanjuro]

#InflateAboveHate

 

[Big-E]

But this is what I'm getting at. What if it turns out there is proof the Patriots cheated?

Then you punish and hand out fines and sanctions that fit the crime. The NFL is one of the few leagues that constantly has a rule problem because the NFL are fucking idiots. Make money hand over fist but pay refs nothing so we had to deal with the replacement ref debacle. Keep the rule language as obtuse as possible in order to create confusion. Penalize innocent infractions and penalize severely. Pretend to take the stand on violent offenders, yet nothing is said of Marvin Harrison or Ray Lewis at the height of their careers. The NFL doesn't give a fuck about this situation or any other as they are making money and that is all they care about.

 

[Tragicomedy]

I see KHarvey is living up to his signature, as usual. I will give him credit: nobody does ignorant broken record quite so well.

The attendants that track the game-approved footballs are hired by the teams. These attendants are required to test the balls throughout the game to make sure they remain within requirements. Once again, a TEAM EMPLOYEE is responsible for tracking that team's footballs. And they can regularly take a pressure gauge to the balls as the game progresses.

If 11 of 12 Patriot footballs were each deflated by almost precisely 2 pounds, you've got to be the world's biggest moron to not realize what happened here. We're left with motive, access, and a record of past cheating.

Throw the book at a garbage organization with a proven track record of cheating.

 

[timetokill]

The idea that Brady didn't know he was handling deflated balls is ridiculous.

 

[riotous]

I see KHarvey is living up to his signature, as usual.

The attendants that track the game-approved footballs are hired by the teams. These attendants are required to test the balls throughout the game to make sure they remain within requirements. Once again, a TEAM EMPLOYEE is responsible for tracking that team's footballs.

If 11 of 12 Patriot footballs were each deflated by almost precisely 2 pounds, you've got to be the world's biggest moron to not realize what happened here.

Throw the book at a garbage organization with a proven track record of cheating.

Details like this are what I'm curious about; that CNN article claimed the 12 balls are shared between the teams for instance.

Where does all this info come from?

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Yea what ever happened to the Marvin Harrison thing? I heard the Ray Lewis murder case was settled with the victims families in court but the Marvin Harrison situation sort of disappeared.

 

[cdyhybrid]

naw...you got your own sith lord in pete carroll. knows plenty about cheating. no need for that trade

Like I said, I'm sure there are people that think that.

Just like there are people that think the Earth is flat.

 

[WesternHeretic]

The idea that Brady didn't know he was handling deflated balls is ridiculous.

If anything they did that because that's how he like his balls.

Spoiler

In before a ball joke....

Yea what ever happened to the Marvin Harrison thing? I heard the Ray Lewis murder case was settled with the victims families in court but the Marvin Harrison situation sort of disappeared.

I think he killed like a gangster or someone with shady background and no one asked anymore questions or didn't care to know.

 

[BadAss2961]

The idea that Brady didn't know he was handling deflated balls is ridiculous.

And then there's his "I like deflated balls" quote from years back. lol

 

[3N16MA]

Every SB that The Brady Bunch and the Rats have won is tainted. Spy, deflate balls, these scum buckets will do anything to win.

 

[Hunter S.]

The idea that Brady didn't know he was handling deflated balls is ridiculous.

It is like how a professional guitarist knows when the guitar is not in tune.

 

[KHarvey16]

Can you quote and link the specific part of the rule book that says that if a team knowingly provides under inflated balls but the refs fail to catch it that the team that provides under inflated balls is no longer held responsible?

I realize that you have been asserting this as fact since our discussion has began but have not qualified it.

The rules regarding the ball state:

"In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner."

No punishment is prescribed for presenting a ball or balls which fail to meet specifications.

I did ask--which rules do you think are not being broken and why do you not think other rules do not apply?

And I answered! If the referees approved for use balls that did not meet requirements, the Patriots did not use illegal footballs in the game. The referees deemed them legal by approving them for use in the game. It's simply a prediction on my part that if this turns out to be the case, the Patriots will not be punished. I don't find the act of having underinflated balls evaluated for approval to be cheating. If the referees are ok with it we're good.

 

[ConradCervantes]

I think it's hilarious that the Patriots went full Nixon and cheated even when they were probably going to win anyway.

Leopards can't change their spots. The Patriots organization is what the criminal justice system calls a "habitual offender."

 

[MechDX]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/s...s-are-months-in-making.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

prep of an NFL football for gameday. Interesting look that goes into preparing the game balls.

Ironically it is about Patriot Killer Eli Mannings balls.

 

[Beelzebufo]

The NFL should put aside a bit of those billions of dollars they make to put a nice set of footballs off of Amazon that everyone uses.

 

[riotous]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/s...s-are-months-in-making.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

prep of an NFL football for gameday. Interesting look that goes into preparing the game balls.

Ironically it is about Patriot Killer Eli Mannings balls.

Interesting read.

 

[Big-E]

The NFL should put aside a bit of those billions of dollars they make to put a nice set of footballs off of Amazon that everyone uses.

I think I remember hearing that the NFL actually tries to get balls back lost from the crowd. I don't know if I am right, but I remember hearing this somewhere even though those opportunities are rare at an NFL game.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

a few draft picks ain't shit. The Pats suck at drafting anyway. Every team in the league would trade a few draft picks for the chance to go to the Super Bowl.

 

[Coldnoodle]

Leopards can't change their spots. The Patriots organization is what the criminal justice system calls a "habitual offender."

 

[hiryu2015]

...and not a darn thing will happen beyond a fine and lost draft picks. Everyone will still watch the Super Bowl and consume all the offseason b.s. until the next season starts. Just like after the labor dispute, the referee lockout, the domestic violence cover-ups, and all the other little team-specific scandals that inflame local fan bases. Yet consumers of the N.F.L. will continue to shovel loads of taxpayer money to publicly finance private stadiums, as well as shell out money they can't afford to spend supporting nothing but a jersey to fill a void in their lives with a sense of "legacy" and/or "tradition".

Not to mention Kraft was one of the first owners to publicly support Goodell after the Rice tapes were revealed so you know he's not losing any sleep over any punishment or backlash.

 

[BadAss2961]

I see KHarvey is living up to his signature, as usual. I will give him credit: nobody does ignorant broken record quite so well.

The attendants that track the game-approved footballs are hired by the teams. These attendants are required to test the balls throughout the game to make sure they remain within requirements. Once again, a TEAM EMPLOYEE is responsible for tracking that team's footballs. And they can regularly take a pressure gauge to the balls as the game progresses.

If 11 of 12 Patriot footballs were each deflated by almost precisely 2 pounds, you've got to be the world's biggest moron to not realize what happened here. We're left with motive, access, and a record of past cheating.

Throw the book at a garbage organization with a proven track record of cheating.

Exactly.

Max fine, lost picks, 1 year suspension for Belichick.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The fact that this came out to be true makes me not discount anything. I can see it being their special teams ball. Haha.

I'm pretty sure the NFL provides a case of balls specifically for special teams.

In fact, don't both teams use the same balls? You can hardly attribute the Colts loss to this when they had the exact same advantage.

 

[Fenderputty]

a few draft picks ain't shit. The Pats suck at drafting anyway. Every team in the league would trade a few draft picks for the chance to go to the Super Bowl.

.

 

[riotous]

I'm pretty sure the NFL provides a case of balls specifically for special teams.

Yeah linked article says they get 45 minutes to rub and stroke the balls provided to them.

The main game balls are a different story; cupped.. coddled.. shorn.. they are the perfect ball. Like a golden egg.

 

[3N16MA]

If the Steelers were in this position Goodell would want them removed from the league simply because James Harrsion is on the team again.

 

[Dicer]

O.K. well let's see...

it all started following Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson’s interception of Tom Brady in the second quarter. Jackson gave the ball to a member of the Colts’ equipment staff who thought the ball was under-inflated. The staff member then told coach Chuck Pagano.

Colts general manager Ryan Grigson, who was sitting in the press box at Gillette Stadium, was then notified and he contacted NFL director of football operations Mike Kensil. Kensil then notified the officials on the field at halftime. The Patriots went onto score 21 third quarter points on their way to their 38-point romp.

So, the Colts who handled the ball during the first quarter noticed nothing...and then everyone was notified at halftime, yet no investigation or checks were done at that time...and the game was played out. Then the balls were not checked until well after the game, when they would have naturally deflated anyway?

Sounds legit....

 

[Jonm1010]

The rules regarding the ball state:

"In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner."

No punishment is prescribed for presenting a ball or balls which fail to meet specifications.



And I answered! If the referees approved for use balls that did not meet requirements, the Patriots did not use illegal footballs in the game. The referees deemed them legal by approving them for use in the game. It's simply a prediction on my part that if this turns out to be the case, the Patriots will not be punished. I don't find the act of having underinflated balls evaluated for approval to be cheating. If the referees are ok with it we're good.

The rules seem to state that the ref is the soul judge of determining if a football complies with regulations. It doesn't specify anything about what happens in the event where they were wrong about an initial judgement if a team intentionally provided balls they knew shouldnt pass inspection.

Furthermore, as others have pointed out with specific quotes from the rulebook, there are enough broad rules about team and organizational behavior and not ruining the integrity of the game that very well could apply to this scenario and justify punishment.

 

[cdyhybrid]

O.K. well let's see...




So, the Colts who handled the ball during the first quarter noticed nothing...and then everyone was notified at halftime, yet no investigation or checks were done at that time...and the game was played out. Then the balls were not checked until well after the game, when they would have naturally deflated anyway?

Sounds legit....

As legit as the Pats' Super Bowls!

 

[Ninja Scooter]

O.K. well let's see...




So, the Colts who handled the ball during the first quarter noticed nothing...and then everyone was notified at halftime, yet no investigation or checks were done at that time...and the game was played out. Then the balls were not checked until well after the game, when they would have naturally deflated anyway?

Sounds legit....

Each team has their own set of balls. The Colts didn't handle Brady's balls until that INT.

 

[numble]

The rules regarding the ball state:

"In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner."

No punishment is prescribed for presenting a ball or balls which fail to meet specifications.



And I answered! If the referees approved for use balls that did not meet requirements, the Patriots did not use illegal footballs in the game. The referees deemed them legal by approving them for use in the game. It's simply a prediction on my part that if this turns out to be the case, the Patriots will not be punished. I don't find the act of having underinflated balls evaluated for approval to be cheating. If the referees are ok with it we're good.

You still have not answered why the other rules cited do not apply. I specifically cited Rule 17, Section 2, Article 3, Rule 17, Section 2, Article 1, and the Code of Conduct, for instance.