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[Frenden]

Fixed.

The massive amount of one shot kills in Destiny 1, including but not limited to sniper rifles, shotguns, fusion rifles, grenades, melee abilities (knife and charge), and ridiculous supers - made connection issues that much worse.
...

But as someone who was on the receiving end of some horrible lag, the overall removal or tone down of one shots is more than welcome.

Again, special/one shot weapons weren't running rampant until they nerfed primaries at the end of Y1.

I could post my big long screed again, but I think that's in poor taste. Look a page or two back. We need strong primaries. If we had them, we wouldn't be stuck with this weird two primary loadout system that relegated special and heavy to one sad slot.

The connection issues are wholly separate and were a legitimate problem through all eras of Destiny.

 

[Makikou]

I don't understand how people like everything to be team-based games where you absolutely depend on your teammates. It isn't relaxing, it isn't fun. It's tryharding while digesting a shit ton of salt.

D1 Y1 pvp still best.

 

[gutter_trash]

I don't understand how people like everything to be team-based games where you absolutely depend on your teammates. It isn't relaxing, it isn't fun. It's tryharding while digesting a shit ton of salt.

D1 Y1 pvp still best.

totally agree, I loved 6v6 Control, loved 6v6 Clash and loved Rumble.

I hated Trials and hated Skirmish.

Let me have fun tearing shit up without going fuckin' E-Sports.

E-Sports is going to kill gaming

 

[urge26]

people are also playing a beta here that's missing features.

 

[xplicitone]

I've been putting in some time on PvP lately I can definitely say I've been enjoying it. The ttk hasn't been bothering me much. I feel like the game has made a huge shift to more team-oriented play. I felt like that was showing up a lot more on the competitive streams and in trials and the sort of team-shotting/team-movement based gameplay is absolutely moving into the normal gameplay. To me, this is a net positive for the game. I have a feeling that due to beta feedback amongst other things we'll see some of that change and I'm not exactly sure what we'll get in the end, but here is to being hopeful.

The main things that I really think need to be addressed are super charge and abilities, I think that everything is far too staggered right now. I enjoy the primary gunfights a lot, and enjoy the ability to counter supers with your energy weapon. But in a good game, supers aren't coming out to till the end of the game (50/60 points) where they should be dropping atleast at 30. They really need to tweak that balance to make them feel like an actual power play. Right now they feel like a way to mop up kills, and not a way to actually turn the tide of battle.

The discouragement of the lone-wolf game style in favor of some interesting group-play has been a breath of fresh air. Is it Destiny? I'm not really sure, but I'm welcoming it and looking forward to spending more time in it come this fall.

How much have you played of D2 beta pvp? The teamshooting game gets old super fast. It was fun when you had fast paced movement where you can seriously make a difference with movement and gunskill (and obviously nades and melee) in the first game. They mostly just needed to tweak nades cooldown and melee power which they pretty much did. Having really slow ttk unless teamshooting OR using the Burn against the roaming super makes for really static gameplay, imo.

The game is now: "who is the unlucky opponent thatll walk into me and my teammate's crosshairs at rugs that we will melt TOGETHER?". 1v2+ now you pretty much stand no chance. Before you can have epic comebacks and now? You'll know how it'll end 99% of the time, guaranteed.

Sigh

 

[Floody]

I don't understand how people like everything to be team-based games where you absolutely depend on your teammates. It isn't relaxing, it isn't fun. It's tryharding while digesting a shit ton of salt.

D1 Y1 pvp still best.

Skill-based matchmaking kinda made it so you'd always have to try anyway. Really wish they'd just save that for specific modes (well just Trails), so not every game was just a big sweat fest.
The priority should always be connection imo, sure they'll be games were you absolutely destroy the other team, but it's also probably going to happen to you too at some point.

 

[BLCKATK]

You can make something team-oriented without going full "e-sports", this game doesn't feel anywhere near that level. Honestly they are probably going to try to push competitive and I highly doubt they are going to reach the support needed for it to really receive emphasis.

 

[Stripper13]

Again, special/one shot weapons weren't running rampant until they nerfed primaries at the end of Y1.

I could post my big long screed again, but I think that's in poor taste. Look a page or two back. We need strong primaries. If we had them, we wouldn't be stuck with this weird two primary loadout system that relegated special and heavy to one sad slot.

The connection issues are wholly separate and were a legitimate problem through all eras of Destiny.

I responded to your post, and I don't think that over powered primaries (namely, OP handcannons) are much better than snipers and shotties every match. I loved the Hawkmoon and Last Word but they were also incredibly easy to use and made other primaries a handicap at best.

I don't know that we can rule out strong primaries in D2 yet. We have only seen 3 exotics, and one of them (handcannon) was quite good.

 

[BLCKATK]

How much have you played of D2 beta pvp? The teamshooting game gets old super fast. It was fun when you had fast paced movement where you can seriously make a difference with movement and gunskill (and obviously nades and melee) in the first game. They mostly just needed to tweak nades cooldown and melee power which they pretty much did. Having really slow ttk unless teamshooting OR using the Burn against the roaming super makes for really static gameplay, imo.

The game is now: "who is the unlucky opponent thatll walk into me and my teammate's crosshairs at rugs that we will melt TOGETHER?". 1v2+ now you pretty much stand no chance. Before you can have epic comebacks and now? You'll know how it'll end 99% of the time, guaranteed.

Sigh

I've played about 8 hours total at this point, probably 4 hours with people in voice and the rest on my own. Anytime I get teamshot like that is a reminder I probably should have moved with my team. Every once and awhile I'll break off for the flank and get rewarded mopping up the kills, and that always feels great. And sometimes you just can't get a team that will actually move as a unit, and usually you get mercy ruled.

I'm not gonna say it's not "annoying" to get teamshot, and I wouldn't mind more of a chance to fight back, but I also like the idea of players moving more as a unit and using the abilities they have when off-cooldown to try to manipulate a battle in their favor. When that comes into play, using Titan shields to block possible flank, Warlock aura, grenades, etc (I wish Hunter had more to contribute to this dynamic), it feels unique. I won't say "It feels like Destiny". It feels different, and I don't entirely hate it.

 

[Frenden]

I've played about 8 hours total at this point, probably 4 hours with people in voice and the rest on my own. Anytime I get teamshot like that is a reminder I probably should have moved with my team. Every once and awhile I'll break off for the flank and get rewarded mopping up the kills, and that always feels great. And sometimes you just can't get a team that will actually move as a unit, and usually you get mercy ruled.

I'm not gonna say it's not "annoying" to get teamshot, and I wouldn't mind more of a chance to fight back, but I also like the idea of players moving more as a unit and using the abilities they have when off-cooldown to try to manipulate a battle in their favor. When that comes into play, using Titan shields to block possible flank, Warlock aura, grenades, etc (I wish Hunter had more to contribute to this dynamic), it feels unique. I won't say "It feels like Destiny". It feels different, and I don't entirely hate it.

I hear ya. It's just too much of a departure for me. D1 already got slower and this is that by an order of magnitude. Boo.

 

[Twilight Gap]

This is why I played Destiny

Get this weak ass teamshooting Halo knockoff out of here.

 

[Frenden]

This is why I played Destiny

Get this weak ass teamshooting Halo knockoff out of here.

THIS MAN GETS IT.

 

[Kadey]

If people really think it's just spamming supers and grenades take a sample size of five or so players of every tier.

Go to Destiny tracker.

Tier one - .050 and below club.

Tier two - Below 1.0 to .050 club.

Tier three. 1.0 to 1.5. club.

Tier four. 1.5+ to 2.0 club.

Tier five. 2.0+ to 4.0 club.

Tier Six. 4.0_ and above. The absolute best.

Take like six or seven of their last games and see what were used for their kills. Then find out the results. I'll tell you the answer. Primaries has the most kills. Primaries always had the most kills no matter the year, the time, the anything. Mayhem does not count for obvious reasons. At most you'll get two or three supers per game and that's dependent on you getting orbs or getting kills, having something equipped to get it faster, etc. Ditto for abilities. It's not an all day fest like some are making it out to be.

 

[xplicitone]

This is why I played Destiny

Get this weak ass teamshooting Halo knockoff out of here.

Sogood.gif

 

[Frenden]

If people really think it's just spamming supers and grenades take a sample size of five or so players of every tier.

...

Take like six or seven of their last games and see what were used for their kills. Then find out the results. I'll tell you the answer. Primaries has the most kills. Primaries always had the most kills no matter the year, the time, the anything. Mayhem does not count for obvious reasons. At most you'll get two or three supers per game and that's dependent on you getting orbs or getting kills, having something equipped to get it faster, etc. Ditto for abilities. It's not an all day fest like some are making it out to be.

And ability spam didn't become meta until all other options were nerfed into the ground. First primaries died. Then secondaries were left unchecked until killed by the ammo economy nerfs. Then people aped around with sticky grenades. Because they were one of the only ways to be aggressive. Ability spam happened because everything took such a beating that the abilities grew in power by proxy.

 

[Schwabe]

If people really think it's just spamming supers and grenades take a sample size of five or so players of every tier.

Go to Destiny tracker.

Tier one - .050 and below club.

Tier two - Below 1.0 to .050 club.

Tier three. 1.0 to 1.5. club.

Tier four. 1.5+ to 2.0 club.

Tier five. 2.0+ to 4.0 club.

Tier Six. 4.0_ and above. The absolute best.

Take like six or seven of their last games and see what were used for their kills. Then find out the results. I'll tell you the answer. Primaries has the most kills. Primaries always had the most kills no matter the year, the time, the anything. Mayhem does not count for obvious reasons. At most you'll get two or three supers per game and that's dependent on you getting orbs or getting kills, having something equipped to get it faster, etc. Ditto for abilities. It's not an all day fest like some are making it out to be.

Can you filter that to a time before the special ammo changes? I guess you'll have different results...

 

[Mockerre]

half of the "kills" in d2 beta are "assists" breh :/

Yup. It's all teamfire from now on... with primaries 95% of the time. Less room for fun playes, for using the environment. It's just simple gunline tactics. It IS more in line with how this would go down in real life. But it's also a lot more boring than D1.

 

[Kadey]

Results aren't different because primaries were even better than before special ammo nerf. I miss OG Hawkmoon. Use to take on three on one with it and thanks to watching Stable use it I tried to be like him.

The actual irony of this whole thing is that better players will beast on worse players with regular weapons and the only way for casuals and below to even get a kill on high level players is to use abilities and supers. The skill gap will be more apparent on one on one encounters. But since team work is more required expect Lumi and his goons to travel around and you will get killed so fast and so much you'll quit D2 PVP until D3 PVP.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Results aren't different because primaries were even better than before special ammo nerf.

The actual irony of this whole thing is that better players will beast on worse players with regular weapons and the only way for casuals and below to even get a kill on high level players is to use abilities and supers. The skill gap will be more apparent on one on one encounters. But since team work is more required expect Lumi and his goons to travel around and you will get so fast and so much you'll quit D2 PVP until D3 PVP.

Nobody gets it. Nobody understands that when you lower the player's ability to make individual plays and give it all to the team, it goes both ways. Give up all your power, and then you get shit on when you have a weak link or match a team way better than you (which is going to happen in a casual game like Destiny).

Longer TTK and less mobility plus longer ability cooldowns and less special/heavy ammo = casuals getting donged on and unable to get any kills. The same exact shit happened in Halo after Halo 2, except you could at least move, jump and pick up stronger weapons in those games.

Very few people who understand competitive shooters or otherwise play them competitively like this direction. It's happened before and there have rarely been compelling arguments for it, especially in the face of alternatives.

Bungie's tone deaf balancing is part of their MO at this point, so I'll just sit and watch the shitshow when everyone changes their mind 6 months from now.

 

[Frenden]

Nobody gets it. Nobody understands that when you lower the player's ability to make individual plays and give it all to the team, it goes both ways. Give up all your power, and then you get shit on when you have a weak link or match a team way better than you (which is going to happen in a casual game like Destiny).

Longer TTK and less mobility plus longer ability cooldowns and less special/heavy ammo = casuals getting donged on and unable to get any kills. The same exact shit happened in Halo after Halo 2, except you could at least move, jump and pick up stronger weapons in those games.

Very few people who understand competitive shooters or otherwise play them competitively like this direction.

Bungie's tone deaf balancing is part of their MO at this point, so I'll just sit and watch the shitshow when everyone changes their mind 6 months from now.

Six months is generous. See you in three years for Destiny 3.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Six months is generous. See you in three years for Destiny 3.

The game isn't changing 6 months from now lol, but the D2 PvP fans will be singing a different tune if the last 10 years of Bungie development is anything to go by.

 

[LTWood12]

This is why I played Destiny

Get this weak ass teamshooting Halo knockoff out of here.

Yeah I'm really sad to see these kind of highlights go. Even as someone who has never been remotely close to that level, I've loved knowing it existed and watching BIG PLAYS.

 

[Ramirez]

Big plays will still exist in D2. They'll be even more impressive when you actually pull them off too. Nothing against anyone posting gifs, but who doesn't have a vault of highlights like that from D1? I remember back in Halo, getting an Overkill was actually a huge deal, that shit was hard to pull off. That's how I see D2 being, those moments will be special and amazing.

 

[Floody]

Nobody gets it. Nobody understands that when you lower the player's ability to make individual plays and give it all to the team, it goes both ways. Give up all your power, and then you get shit on when you have a weak link or match a team way better than you (which is going to happen in a casual game like Destiny).

Longer TTK and less mobility plus longer ability cooldowns and less special/heavy ammo = casuals getting donged on and unable to get any kills. The same exact shit happened in Halo after Halo 2, except you could at least move, jump and pick up stronger weapons in those games.

Very few people who understand competitive shooters or otherwise play them competitively like this direction. It's happened before and there have rarely been compelling arguments for it, especially in the face of alternatives.

Bungie's tone deaf balancing is part of their MO at this point, so I'll just sit and watch the shitshow when everyone changes their mind 6 months from now.

Haven't they already said they'll be changing the Super & Ability cooldowns and heavy ammo countdown times too? Plus with top tier weapons (what pretty much all the gifs posted involve) TTK will be shorter. People need to remember it's a beta not the finished product and stuff will be changed, on top of that there'll being tons more options.

Movement speed a 2 primaries are my only real concern, as I don't see them changing much, movement speed due to the tiny maps and 2 primary system probably being too much work/I doubt Bungie want it to be like it used to be.

 

[TiM3_4_P4iN]

I absolutely can't agree... I think the PvP is very pleasing, no overloading of abilities and supers, more focus on primary weapons

no more heavy for the whole team

just 4vs4 players, no more overload of players on the map

the new mode was pretty fun as well, so i hope they keep sticking with their current meta and not changing it back and forth again and again destroying the balance of everything

 

[xplicitone]

Big plays will still exist in D2. They'll be even more impressive when you actually pull them off too. Nothing against anyone posting gifs, but who doesn't have a vault of highlights like that from D1? I remember back in Halo, getting an Overkill was actually a huge deal, that shit was hard to pull off. That's how I see D2 being, those moments will be special and amazing.

It's not about posting impressive highlight gifs from D1, it's about the simple fact that those plays are not possible in D2. We played D1 PvP because you could pull that off.

Now, similar stuff will happen in D2 (very rarely) as far as 1v2 and 1v3, but it will be because A) you have a power weapon or super, and/or B) the 2 people on the other team are apart from each other.

In d1, you were able to make plays regardless of 2 enemies being next to each other. D2, not happening 99% of the time.

 

[Midas]

There are lots of issues with the state of the PvP in the beta. But I couldn't be more happy about the special "power" weapons, I think I got killed by a sniper once in like 100 games. And it will be easy to take out the sniper(s). You know that they'll camp the power ammo spot, go there and kill them. Problem solved.

 

[Ramirez]

It's not about posting impressive highlight gifs from D1, it's about the simple fact that those plays are not possible in D2. We played D1 PvP because you could pull that off.

Now, similar stuff will happen in D2 (very rarely) as far as 1v2 and 1v3, but it will be because A) you have a power weapon or super, and/or B) the 2 people on the other team are apart from each other.

In d1, you were able to make plays regardless of 2 enemies being next to each other. D2, not happening 99% of the time.

Pretty much every gif posted involved a power weapon, or super, lol.

I'm glad we know the extent of what's possible in D2 based on a few legendary weapons with no perks on our gear or exotics equipped. Good lord, people.

 

[Kadey]

I won a three on one today but all I did was hide behind cover, run around and shoot them with an unsatisfying peashooter and super soaker. Doesn't feel as good. It's like playing fighting games and sweeping an opponent to death and they can't block and keep coming at you meanwhile in like D1, I could pull off an fadc combo with a pixel health left.

And there is nothing wrong with criticizing a beta. The game is out in a month and every top player and media is overall sharing the same sentiments. In an age where there is less time to do things and there are hundreds of releases a year, a game better be good enough to spend your money and time with. Thanks to OG Desitny, I pretty much stop playing any other game and it was worth it to me. So I expect a lot from D2. Luke better deliver or else.

 

[Ramirez]

Criticise the beta all you want, but don't jump to conclusions based off a very small sample size of gear and weapons. I've seen crazy shit happen, and did some myself in the beta. So, to sit here and read post after post about how nothing exciting or big play worthy will be possible in D2 is silly.

 

[xplicitone]

Pretty much every gif posted involved a power weapon, or super, lol.

I'm glad we know the extent of what's possible in D2 based on a few legendary weapons with no perks on our gear or exotics equipped. Good lord, people.

TwilightGap's gif had

1) most important, fast movement
2) strong primary
3) throwing knife + melee kill
4) sniper kill for the end

In d2 even if you had a sniper with ammo, would not happen. Primaries arent as strong and mobility isn't nearly that.

I guarantee there are no primaries that will be much better than our current selection because they want the ttk to be what it is. If there are, itll get nerfed to current ttk. Even if there is, the movement is still too slow for these things to happen for a high skilled player.

Lower skilled players can way more easily hold a teammates hand and teamshoot people because of high ttk. High ttk primary main greatly promotes holding hands. It's good in theory, but it just isn't what Destiny used to be fun for, imo.

Year 1 Destiny (HoW era) was easily the best and we will never get that experience again. Fast paced Destiny was the best Destiny. Take HoW: fix litc, final round snipers, tlw 111 and taking away 2 tapping on thorn along with integrating d2 nade/melee system, I'd love it. In D2, 1v2+ is basically a wrap. We'll know the outcome 99% of the time. In Destiny 1, anything could happen and that was exciting.

Making big plays was always so exciting. These will be so rare in d2.

 

[T-0800]

Before you can have epic comebacks and now? You'll know how it'll end 99% of the time, guaranteed.

Sigh

I've had thrilling comebacks in the beta so I don't agree.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I love when these threads show up and all the bad players chime in with their anecdotes while the rest of the typical "wait and see" apologists pretend things will be different.

It's like everyone conveniently forgets the last 10+ years of precedent.

 

[xplicitone]

I've had thrilling comebacks in the beta so I don't agree.

1v2+ comebacks? Or you mean when down some rounds or points? Those are 2 different things.

Games will always have comebacks in terms of score, but typically in d2 that'll be because of teamwork and not highlight reel plays.

 

[Defuser]

Year 1 Destiny (HoW era) was easily the best and we will never get that experience again. Fast paced Destiny was the best Destiny. Take HoW: fix litc, final round snipers, tlw 111 and taking away 2 tapping on thorn along with integrating d2 nade/melee system, I'd love it. In D2, 1v2+ is basically a wrap. We'll know the outcome 99% of the time. In Destiny 1, anything could happen and that was exciting.

HoW Era will forever be loved despite the unholy 3 handcannon and autorifle still being weak, reforging brought so much to the table. It also have the most varied weapon uses. Mini Hawkmoon Handcannons, Braced Frame Counter Balance Pulse Rifles and Full Auto Braced frame scout rifles.

 

[HiredN00bs]

The connection issues are wholly separate

This is such an important concept, and you've gotten it completely wrong. Connection quality is always interpreted by the player through the mechanics of gameplay. It's why Halo was so successful as an online game. The faster the time to kill, the faster that bipeds move, the more obvious poor network performance becomes.

 

[xplicitone]

This is such an important concept, and you've gotten it completely wrong. Connection quality is always interpreted by the player through the mechanics of gameplay. It's why Halo was so successful as an online game. The faster the time to kill, the faster that bipeds move, the more obvious poor network performance becomes.

Say what?

This game has insanely slow ttk and connection issues are still rampant. P2P is still there so regardless of anything else, connection issues will be there. Not to mention tick rate aka "trade central".

 

[jizzlobber]

This is why I played Destiny

Get this weak ass teamshooting Halo knockoff out of here.

What makes this so special?
This can all be done in halo... Or am I not seeing something?

 

[Twilight Gap]

Frenden's post from earlier needs to be reiterated.

Bungie nerfed the entire Auto Rifle class to fix the Suros Regime and a few problematic Legendaries. The first nerf was barely felt, so they nerfed them again, this time into irrelevancy. Without Autos, Hand Cannons took their place.

The infamous exotic trio were all overpowered in their own way (one was bugged, one was buffed for PvE - ironically - and the other was simply too good). But Bungie nerfed the entire Hand Cannon class to fix these, and then nerfed them all again and again until they were too inconsistent to use. Without HCs, Pulse Rifles took their place.

Bungie buffs Pulse Rifles, and now nobody can use anything else because Pulse Rifles were always the most bullshit weapon with how fast they killed, how much range they had, and how easy they were to use. But at least before they were kept in check by other weapons that weren't arbitrarily restricted to "effective ranges".

For specials, Bungie did the exact same thing. They nerf Fusion Rifles into irrelevancy to fix one archetype, and then Snipers and Shotguns take their place. They then nerf Snipers and make them too clunky to use, and then Shotguns take their place. At this point, they've been nerfing Shotguns left and right but can't seem to remember that Shotguns weren't even a problem when the game launched because there were 3 hard counters to them. So they decide to just effectively remove Special Ammo from the game.

Then the playerbase rightfully flocks to special weapons with regenerating ammo, and Bungie predictably nerfs those too!

At this point, Supers and OHK grenades have been largely untouched, and it's no surprise that people are running around throwing grenades at each other when everything else has been nerfed to shit.

Instead of Bungie making sure there are no stupid archetypes like Felwinter's Lie and no stupid perks like Final Round and Luck in the Chamber, they decided to just hide the special weapons in the power slot. The one good change is that none of the abilities are OHKs anymore, but that was a long overdue change that didn't take any mental energy to realize.

The primary weapon should always always be stronger than everything else. That's just the way these games have to be designed. Bungie got it right in Halo CE and almost got it right in Destiny. But of course they completely misunderstand competitive gameplay - they admit they don't even care about it after all - and stick their noses in spreadsheets. These are the same spreadsheets that told them the Gunslinger's neutral game needed a nerf.

They've done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt for Destiny 2's competitive multiplayer.

 

[Twilight Gap]

What makes this so special?
This can all be done in halo... Or am I not seeing something?

wat

Halo doesn't have primary weapon kill times under 1 second, and that second fight would have ended with a double melee.

My Halo comment was referring to Destiny 2, where the throwing knife is nerfed, special weapons are only up once in a while, and all of the Hand Cannons do less damage.

 

[Kadey]

D1 lets me be creative in how I defend myself from a bunch of LOTR cosplayers. Having at best a pringles launcher and I have to run down the streets and wait like five minutes to get ammo for my sniper isn't going to help me. Oh and I'll miss all the stoners I snipe for first kill. Or destroying a bunch of crips and bloods while they try to get their fill of purple drank. This is all Bobby's fault. If only he didn't look so much like Richard Simmons's long lost brother then we wouldn't have this issue. Luke you 1up traitor.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Pretty much. At least the guns shot where pointed.

I was never a good sniper. I could respect a good sniper though. Never felt unfair. Atleast, that is until shortly after TTK, where Snipers completely dominated after the HC nerfs.

But. There was always a counter to it. Running around the map with a shotgun. Taking the corners. Surprising the Sniper.

There was always risk to running blind like that though. A charging bull. Person catches you from the side, you're too far, you die.

But it was fair. The smaller maps were hectic because of that. Shotguns dominated, but everyone had one. This was before the special ammo nerf.

The problem with Destiny, that D2 seems to exasperate, is that instead of buffing weapons to their own strengths, they simply nerfed everything with a hammer. Then nerfed the next weapon in line. And then the next. From auto rifles, to pulse rifles, to shotguns, to hand cannons, nerf all that and the sniper meta emerges, then you nerfed that and...I stopped a bit after that.

This hurt PvE too. I was mainly PvE. And this is the problem with Bungie. They nerfed, and they nerfed, and they nerfed, and they nerfed. And nothing got better. HoW was this game at it's peak point.

The 2 primary weapon thing...sours me, from the impressions I've gotten. Primaries serve the same purpose. Why would I want to have both an auto rifle and HC? I would always pick my preference. That is, HC.

Hrmm. Hrm. Lots of opinions in this thread, from alot of people I recognize from my times in DGaf.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I don't like to use words like "cringe", but hearing Bungie defend the fact that you can "run two sidearms" in completely different slots - and find that more interesting than the first game - is nothing short of cringe-inducing. But then I remember that these are the same guys that spawned you with an SMG in Big Team Battle.

It's frustrating seeing one of the most talented developers make the most obvious mistakes, and then continue to spin them as something else. I read like two developer blogs from Blizzard about balancing changes made to Overwatch, and even though I didn't agree with them on a personal level, they articulated their changes in a complete and logical way. That's the kind of accountability I wish Bungie had.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Say what?

This game has insanely slow ttk and connection issues are still rampant. P2P is still there so regardless of anything else, connection issues will be there. Not to mention tick rate aka "trade central".

Insanely slow? You did play Halo, right?

Connection quality is a numbers game. You need a big pool of players and efficient algorithms paired with the best engine and networking you can muster. I'm also pretty certain connection quality was part of why (among other design principles) we're all on 4v4, why there are only 2 lists, and why the time-to-kill is longer.

 

[Frenden]

The two primary thing is a direct result of the constant parade of weapon archetype nerfs that both Gap and Breezy mentioned. My post from earlier:

Secondaries ran rampant in Destiny when they nerfed primaries at the end of Y1.

Instead of balancing the three exotic hand cannons that dominated the meta in a surgical way, they nuked the whole weapon class from orbit.

Those HCs kept snipers in check (Hawkmoon was great for this) and punished people aping with a shotgun (TLW, anyone?).

The flat footed pulse rifle meta that bloomed, to start Y2 after, was the precursor for the stale, static gunplay in D2's beta-meta.

Without strong primaries to keep the one hit kill weapons in check, all sorts of less successful changes to the sandbox were implemented to try and make shotties and snipers less prominent.

In D2, we're saddled with two primaries, both still weak, and our special weapons have been removed from the game for large swaths of time in both pve and pvp. Instead of buffing primaries, the ttk has gotten even slower. Movement has been slowed down.

All this is a reaction to the first unnecessary wave of nerfs that totally ruined Destiny's PvP at the end of year one.

Strong primaries challenge secondaries. They reward gunskill. They increase the skill gap.

Things have been getting worse for Destiny pvp with every balance patch. Most hardcore PvPers I know would rather play Y1, vanilla balance than any since (even with the warts and bumps--it wasn't perfect). It was fast, it was fun, primaries were powerful and special/power weapons were not a problem.

Like has been said, first the autos died. Then the hand cannons. Then snipers. Then all special ammo (as they couldn't realize the previous nerfs left shotguns unchecked apparently). And all we had left was ability spam and sidearms. An ignominious end for a fantastic feeling game.

And D2 nerfed abilities. And primaries, again. And special, by moving them into the heavy slot. "Progress" just keeps running in the direction of making everything weaker.

Maybe D3 will have primaries relegated to power ammo, render the characters stationary, and give us wadded up tissue paper in two slots.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It's frustrating seeing one of the most talented developers make the most obvious mistakes, and then continue to spin them as something else. I read like two developer blogs from Blizzard about balancing changes made to Overwatch, and even though I didn't agree with them on a personal level, they articulated their changes in a complete and logical way. That's the kind of accountability I wish Bungie had.

Right. There was a moment..last year? Where Blizzard visited Bungie to talk about loot. They should've talked about balance.

In my previous conversations in DGaf in the past, I mentioned Riot and how good they were at articulating balance changes. They would take the time to talk to the players and to answer questions, and they would give satisfactory answers. I didn't agree with all of ritos changes, but the fact is that they talked about it. They discussed it.

Riot, Blizzard...both these companies deal with balance changes, and they always discuss them. They always give an explanation about why, the how, and the hope that they have in what the change will do.

I wish Bungie took a tip.

 

[Floody]

I love when these threads show up and all the bad players chime in with their anecdotes while the rest of the typical "wait and see" apologists pretend things will be different.

It's like everyone conveniently forgets the last 10+ years of precedent.

What's your point? Only good players can have an opinion and anyone who disagrees is just a bad player or if they point out it's a Beta an apologist?

I did have more fun with the new Countdown mode than I ever remember having in D1, sorry for not thinking it's the worst thing ever because they changed it up (for better and for worse imo).
Sure it's definitely possible it's more down to the mode than anything and it'd probably be just as fun in 1, but I will see what it's like when there's more than a dozen or so weapons and armour to choose from, as well as full Subclass to play around with, before making my mind up on if I like it more than 1 or not.

I have far more worries about PvE than I do PvP after the beta, as that was really boring with all the changes made.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

Maybe it is not randoms leaving but Bungie servers issues... I got disconnected more times than I wished


You don't need skill to win matches in D2... if your team stay together you will win over 90% of the matches.

D1 is where you could change the pace and momentum of the match just with your skill.

D1's ability spam, 1 shots 'everything' and that horrible Titan melee (I'm a jealous Warlock) ruined PvP a lot for me, I find this form of PvP much more tactical and fun, although I wish Supers and abilities charged a little quicker, allowing for clutch 2nd supers if you're killing it in a round.

 

[Twilight Gap]

I was never a good sniper. I could respect a good sniper though. Never felt unfair. Atleast, that is until shortly after TTK, where Snipers completely dominated after the HC nerfs.

But. There was always a counter to it. Running around the map with a shotgun. Taking the corners. Surprising the Sniper.

There was always risk to running blind like that though. A charging bull. Person catches you from the side, you're too far, you die.

But it was fair. The smaller maps were hectic because of that. Shotguns dominated, but everyone had one. This was before the special ammo nerf.

The problem with Destiny, that D2 seems to exasperate, is that instead of buffing weapons to their own strengths, they simply nerfed everything with a hammer. Then nerfed the next weapon in line. And then the next. From auto rifles, to pulse rifles, to shotguns, to hand cannons, nerf all that and the sniper meta emerges, then you nerfed that and...I stopped a bit after that.

This hurt PvE too. I was mainly PvE. And this is the problem with Bungie. They nerfed, and they nerfed, and they nerfed, and they nerfed. And nothing got better. HoW was this game at it's peak point.

The 2 primary weapon thing...sours me, from the impressions I've gotten. Primaries serve the same purpose. Why would I want to have both an auto rifle and HC? I would always pick my preference. That is, HC.

Hrmm. Hrm. Lots of opinions in this thread, from alot of people I recognize from my times in DGaf.

I think the game peaked at the end of 2014. By the time HoW rolled around, everyone was using a small pool of weapons with overpowered perks. Autos and Fusions had been nerfed out of the game, and Scouts weren't worth using over Hand Cannons.

So Bungie sees this and nerfs Hand Cannons by lowering their hipfire and emphasizing range falloff. This nerfs Hand Cannons in PvP (and PvE), but Scouts still don't get used in PvP because Pulse Rifles were already buffed to do their job and do it better.

 

[Lothars]

I love when these threads show up and all the bad players chime in with their anecdotes while the rest of the typical "wait and see" apologists pretend things will be different.

It's like everyone conveniently forgets the last 10+ years of precedent.

how are posts like this constructive or even good when you seem to be hording some type of superiority over everyone else. I know you say that everyone will magically agree with you in 6 months but what if that doesn't happen?

I think it's important to criticize the game and the changes bungie makes to it but it almost seems like some are attacking others doesn't help anything.