fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Europe is the last bastion of pc game development.MidiSurf said:
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Deus Ex fans - It's time to panic!
- Thread starter PuppetMaster
- Start date
No I didn't want Gears (and how could I considering Deus Ex was released in 2000?).idahoblue said:
Again, the gunplay in Deus Ex was pretty average (even when things were maxed out) back in 2000 with most of the guns looking and feeling pretty rough along with the generally poor/glitchy looking AI. It broke the atmosphere at times for me.
I love the game and it's one of my favorites, but it is not perfect and there is much that could be done to improve upon it.
I never could get into STALKER, but if you're looking for another great DX-style game check out Vampire Bloodlines (if you haven't already). It isn't the most polished game around, but it's a great experience and the fan patches have really cleaned up most of the problems.
Joseph Merrick
Member
serious. for shame, FOR SHAMEDraft said:
russia, is the king of pc development now. or CIS if you will. bow to your new masterfallengorn said:Europe is the last bastion of pc game development.
There's a difference between defending DX3 (which I'm not doing) and critiquing Deus Ex. The original game was fantastic, but it was not perfect in its day and it's not perfect now. I feel that the game has almost become somewhat of a legend to the point where the flaws are forgiven. I purchased the game on release date with little hype and had a blast, but having replayed it many times since then, I can recognize areas where the game is weak and could use improvement.Draft said:
I have no expectations for DX3 at this time. It could really go either way. I don't expect it to live up to the legacy of the original game by any means, but it may not be bad either. That said, I absolutely DETEST Invisible War and I certainly hope they don't follow that direction. While I prefer System Shock 2 to Bioshock, at least Bioshock was a great "followup" game. DXIW can't stand in the shadow of any of those games (though, thankfully, I did enjoy the third and final Thief title).
The FPS/RPG mix that I believe was set in motion with Ultima Underworld and (more importantly) System Shock 1 is one of my favorite "genres" around. I absolutely adore such games and remain disappointed by their rarity. I only critique as someone who dreams of what the genre could become if someone took it seriously again.
beelzebozo said:
The main attraction to games like Deux Ex and System Shock 2 was/is that they were true hybrid games, though, the sort of which we almost never see (back then, and certainly not now, with the possible exception of STALKER). They are impossible to pigeon-hole into one genre. They were literally just as much, if not more, RPG than anything else. So when you create a sequel/spiritual successor that severely compromises the RPG aspects and general open-endedness, it's only natural that there is going to be backlash, particularly if you take the time to take shots at the previous games as the dev in the OP and Bethesda w/ Fallout have done.
It's pretty sad about Deus Ex. It came out in 2000 and I honestly thought it was going to be a forebearer to the sorts of games we'd see all over the place in this decade. Instead it's been the complete opposite, with devs concentrating on commercialism and accessibility at the expense of depth (in both gameplay and storyline), open-endedness and complexity (the good sort). Deus Ex sold well, too, so that's not really any excuse.
Having said that, I don't hate Bioshock. It's certainly no legitimate System Shock 3 as it doesn't have much at all to do with the two previous games, but I think it did a few things quite well, and I enjoyed playing it. Irrational Games is entirely incapable of making bad games, though. I've enjoyed literally everything they've ever done, most of it greatly enjoyed. One of my favorite devs. Same can't be said for Eidos and Bethesda.
So you must be referring to other posters then (as I never did such a thing).Draft said:
The statement he made goes completely against what DX was all about and I don't approve.I think one of the issues at hand is simply visual quality, presentation, and demands for polished games. The fact is, the more ambitious a project becomes, the more difficult it is to rope it all in and create something polished. Bioshock was simplified, but offered a MUCH more impressive presentation and level of polish in comparison to the previous Shock games. They may never admit it, but I believe some complexity may have been sacrificed in order to release a polished game.
STALKER is the exact opposite in that it's even more complex and open ended than DX or System Shock 2, yet it's about as unpolished a game you'll play in this day and age. It's one of the most frustrating releases ever for me personally as I wanted to love it so much yet I just couldn't stand dealing with some of their design decisions (primarily the shitty, oversensitive AI and their huge numbers).
If only someone could achieve the right balance. I do think the success of Bioshock may have been a good thing, however. While simplified, it is a game in the spirit of the genre we all love and its success may prompt other developers to tackle a similar type of game with even more depth. Who knows, it might happen.
The audience for Deus Ex games as it existed is completely dead and gone. Most fans of that game have either moved onto other things or moved out of mainstream gaming completely.
Basically they're making DX3 on the memory and reputation on the first game, not for any literal audience that is looking still looking for a sequel. Deus Ex isn't really the first game this has happened to, either, Fallout 3 is going to be the same way (which I'm looking forward to, incidentally).
I mean, I say this as somebody who loved Deus Ex, but I realize that, these days, another game like it is pretty much an impossibility, so I focus my attention on other things that I enjoy. That said, it's possible to look forward to this game in its own right, but it will probably never, ever, ever be a true successor to the first game. I'm personally still looking forward to it, but not as a Deus Ex game.
I don't buy this idea that complexity and polish are mutually exclusive, it seems to me mostly a cop-out to get gamers into buying into formulaic and planned development cycles, rather than creative and risky ones. This is pretty much the number 1 issue people are referring to when they talk about the "consolization" of games. It's not just disgust at a particular design philosophy, but a business model as well.
(by the way STALKER isn't that complex compared to SS2 and Deus Ex anyway, it doesn't even really have a stat system! Unless you count artifacts, and you can only have a limited number of those)
Basically they're making DX3 on the memory and reputation on the first game, not for any literal audience that is looking still looking for a sequel. Deus Ex isn't really the first game this has happened to, either, Fallout 3 is going to be the same way (which I'm looking forward to, incidentally).
I mean, I say this as somebody who loved Deus Ex, but I realize that, these days, another game like it is pretty much an impossibility, so I focus my attention on other things that I enjoy. That said, it's possible to look forward to this game in its own right, but it will probably never, ever, ever be a true successor to the first game. I'm personally still looking forward to it, but not as a Deus Ex game.
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. wasn't unpolished and hard to get into because it was complex and open-ended, it was that way because it was unpolished and hard to get into. The reason why people tout the game so much is because they're so desperate for a truly open-ended experience that they're willing to look past the bugs for this experience. Really people like that game out of desperation and hype more than anything, because the kind of experience it offers is practically non-existent these days, but its popularity is more of a cynical critique of the industry overall than based on its admittedly meager merits.dark10x said:
I don't buy this idea that complexity and polish are mutually exclusive, it seems to me mostly a cop-out to get gamers into buying into formulaic and planned development cycles, rather than creative and risky ones. This is pretty much the number 1 issue people are referring to when they talk about the "consolization" of games. It's not just disgust at a particular design philosophy, but a business model as well.
(by the way STALKER isn't that complex compared to SS2 and Deus Ex anyway, it doesn't even really have a stat system! Unless you count artifacts, and you can only have a limited number of those)
I really just don't know about that.
When games like DX and Shock 2 were thriving, presentation on the PC was generally weak. I used to refer to games with poor animation as games suffering from "PC animation" as a result. Over time, the standards for polish increased and I've noticed that games have become somewhat more limited as a result. Games that DO attempt to offer a lot of depth, however, almost always seemed to struggle with presentation.
I think it's pretty simple logic, really. It takes time to create a high quality, polished experience. When dealing with a larger, open-ended game the amount of content you need to work on expands greatly. Polishing up all of this content to a high level becomes a HUGE task.
Has the OP played Deus Ex recently? I tried to play it last year for the first time and it was plodding as fuck. Other games from that era hold up much, much better.
The game could be significantly improved with more modern UI and gameplay design. It would definitely be a lot less clunky if it were to come out today.
Sorry, Warren.
The game could be significantly improved with more modern UI and gameplay design. It would definitely be a lot less clunky if it were to come out today.
Prime crotch
Banned
Because STALKER was indeed a great game, and not out of some longing feeling for a different game.DeBurgo said:
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Slavik81 said:
I played it two months ago, I didn't see it plodding anywhere. It holds up as good as, if not better than any other FPS I've seen due to the game design. The only issue I had was with the fucking awful AI. I'm pretty sure you'd think the same thing if you played the game at release due to your horrendous taste
You know, unless you'd care to elaborate on the issues of anything other than the AI?
Steppenwolf
Member
DeBurgo said:
Bullshit. Seriously. If this audience is dead why is there such a big outcry in Fallout and Deus Ex communities? Simple answer, because there are still shitloads of people who enjoy a good game and cant stand games that become more and more casualized and dumbed down.
Its sad to read something like your comment because you obviously believe this marketing crap. And when people from publisher and developers read comments like yours it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy because they think its actualy true.
Prime crotch
Banned
fixedJenga said:
dark10x said:
Nobody (sane) claimed Deus Ex is "perfect", but it was an incredible game with space to improve. Instead of that, we got an inferior sequel and this new one doesn't look promising.
We got a real hybrid, one where the decision of players were really important for the story and the mechanics. A whole way of understanding RPG and FPS should have evolved from that, but instead of that we got more frags fests and more corridors full of cinematic feeling.
The matter is, the Deus Ex formula is extremely hard to get. Not even the original team managed to do it again, it requires extremely good planning, huge talent and a bit of luck so all can fall together in harmony. If they are not even going try to reproduce the mechanics that made the original unique in first place, why calling it "Deus Ex" at all?
Can you really grant that Bioshock got a "MUCH more impressive presentation" because it was simplified? I fail to see any relationship between both things.
Prime crotch
Banned
Thief 3 was indeed awesome, it was only ampered by a shitty graphical engine but otherwise it was a more than worthy sequel.Chiggs said:
MrPing1000
Member
No rope arrows hurt me so much. Basically by deciding that the xbox would be the lead platform and the use of the ue2.5 resulted in huge sacrifices to the design. They still made a decent game, just one with tiny levels, awful physics and no fucking rope arrows (engine probably couldn't do it).
The cradle was awesome though.
The cradle was awesome though.
straydog1980
Banned
Slavik81 said:
ummmmmm yeah I actually played through it again in June. It's still an amazing game.
Steppenwolf
Member
Prime crotch said:
The problem wasnt the gfx engine. The problem was that the game was not only released for PC but for xbox also which only allowed tiny levels due to memory restrictions.
Prime crotch
Banned
of all the shit to complain auto-arm raise is really the stupidest, loot glint was needed simply because all the items looked the same and you would be picking up all kinds of shit until you got them right.Scrubking said:
It also strikes a good balance between Dark Project's creepy ambience and Thief II excellent mission design.
True but it was no where near the awful small levels of IW, it was actually tolerable.Steppenwolf said:
Chiggs said:
You know what is the problem with that? Thief 3 had Randy Smith as director, a guy who was part of the design team of The Dark Project and The Metal Age. That is coherent and give a good chance of the game respecting its legacy, building over it. Then they dropped the ball with the engine and planning, ok, shit happens, but Thief 3 feels authentic to the series, while trying new things without discarding the past achievements.
With Deus Ex 3, the design director is a guy who has not worked in anything remotely close to Deus Ex. I doesn't inspire confidence at all, and when he say stuff like this, much less.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
If this game is as disappointing as I expect it to be, I'm hoping it'll fail as badly as Invisible War. I want the blood of dumbed-down games to run in the streets.
It indeed is stupid since there is no valid reason for putting it in other than to make the game easier since you don't have to judge distance anymore. This change screams dumbed down more than anything.
And whos fault was it that all the items looked the same? How about some effort? How about not accepting whatever crap the devs throw at us?
But they were still small and totally killed the open environment feeling of the game.
I read about this earlier today and when I saw this thread title I immediately knew what it was about. I guess Deus Ex will continue to be the best game ever. Not that I thought this would have a chance of being close, I just wanted a good game, but now I'm not so sure... "too slow"... lawlz
Prime crotch
Banned
You are not going to start complaining about arrow trails as well, are you? This is seriously ttlg.com all over again, I think we can just copy paste one of the numerous threads about this and be done with it.Scrubking said:
Effort? Isn't fixing an issue without breaking the game's experience effort enough? It's not like Dark Project and Metal Age didn't had issues of their own that Deadly Shadows did not repeat, the awful farting underground monster levels for example.Scrubking said:
If you take the "Deus Ex" and "SS2" style gameplay as gospel it is pretty much a huge disappointment in every respect. And I mean, that is the gist of what people are complaining about, right? Not necessarily atmosphere or plot depth, or even lack of openness, but gameplay depth and complexity. That is sort of what I was addressing.Prime crotch said:
Stalker has no stats, no real meaningful game choices that have an impact on your character or your character's development. It has all the hallmarks of a dumbed-down FPS-RPG that people are complaining about in this very thread.
If you take it as a completely different kind of game, then, yeah, that's okay! It's a good, but really buggy, game in that light. But certain vocal people (including fans of the game) frequently conflate and generalize Stalker with other, more complex FPS-RPG hybrids, when it pales in comparison to them in crucial aspects.
Secks4Food
Member
Zilch said:
That doesn't sound bad at all. Stealth sounds more in line with most games today, third person parts are probably a non issue, and you can regenerate health in the first game with the proper aug. Screw the haters, it sounds good so far
Night_Trekker
Member
Zilch said:
I'm really surprised by the number of people willing to give this game a chance. The guys who made the original what it is, they aren't involved. It's Deus Ex in name only. Why would anyone want a sequel from a different team?
And yes, I realize how silly this sounds coming from someone who is really looking forward to Fallout 3 :lol
Apparently the "third person elements" include looking around corners in a 3rd person perspective when you're up against the wall. But it's totally optional and not something that you'll ever be forced to do. (I don't think it really needs to be in the game in the first place, but since I won't have to use the feature I don't think it's worth complaining about)
edit: (Night_Trekker) because the same team made DXIW, which sucks? an FPS/RPG hybrid isn't the sort of thing that can only be created by an elite team of game-dev superhumans. I fail to see your point.
edit: (Night_Trekker) because the same team made DXIW, which sucks? an FPS/RPG hybrid isn't the sort of thing that can only be created by an elite team of game-dev superhumans. I fail to see your point.
Every single interface was clunky, including movement and aiming. Nothing felt 'right'.Spirit of Jazz said:I played it two months ago, I didn't see it plodding anywhere. It holds up as good as, if not better than any other FPS I've seen due to the game design. The only issue I had was with the fucking awful AI. I'm pretty sure you'd think the same thing if you played the game at release due to your horrendous taste
You know, unless you'd care to elaborate on the issues of anything other than the AI?
I would agree with you that I'm sure I would have felt the same back in the day. It's not like the game has changed.
I had more significant gameplay gripes as well, outside of the mechanics, but I'll leave those alone as they may have been improved upon towards the end of the game.
EDIT: Feel free to disagree, but I do think that a modern audience would find it plodding. I certainly did, and I tend to have more patience for these sorts of things than the average player.