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Devin Faraci: What BvS’ Second Week Drop Means For The DC Movieverse

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R

Random17

Member
Humor/entertainment and being dark aren't mutually exclusive. The Dark Knight had plenty of humor, while still focusing on the darker aspects of the movie.

I feel like the newer DC movies take themselves far too seriously.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
Optimusdouche said:
Many directors of MCU movies have zero big budget technical experience, because Marvel Movies is a well oiled machine, with almost no room for director creative control. It has served them well.
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By what metric did Shane Black, Joss Whedon, Kenneth Branagh, Jon Favreau, Joe Johnston, and James Gunn have zero big budget technical experience?
 
A

Askherserenity

Member
Both sides arguing which universe has better movies when they're all bad except for the one Batman movie and the one X-Men movie.

So it's tied now guys. No more fighting.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
Iron Man 1 is peak mcu. haven't seen anything i've liked as much as that from them yet even though cap 2, iron man 3 and guardians impressed to some degree. RDJ's stark was fresh and that ending rocked. great chemistry between everybody (including pepper tbh)

peak dcu will either be suicide squad or batman
 
M

MHWilliams

Member
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Several of these aren't Superman stories, but I'm aware of the existence of most already. You could tenuously add Watchmen to the list given that Doctor Manhattan exists as kind of an riff on the Superman archetype.
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Doctor Manhattan is supposed to be Captain Atom tackle to his extreme endpoint, but yeah, he does mirrors similar themes that come up in Superman stories.

What I was pointing out that there was a current of criticism appearing in BvS threads that was to the effect of Superman needing to conform to a specific idealised version of the character - some people referenced some of the stories you're talking about and said basically that they wouldn't like the Injustice story to appear in Justice League because they felt that you needed to "earn" the story by first having Superman appear as his idealized self to contrast the fallen superman with more firmly. There were also wide criticisms that MoS / BvS superman "wasn't Superman" or that Snyder did not understand the characters, most recently and prominently I saw the Max Landis video where he posts about 4 minutes of himself repeating variations on "Well, Batman vs Superman does not feature DC comics characters, they have the same name but they are in no way connected to them". I'm assuming you would have seen a lot of these types of comments since you frequented a lot of the same BvS threads.
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You're going to have that to a point. It's the opposite edge of brand power; conforming to the public's idea of that specific brand. If you put Batman v Superman on the tin, you're doing that because the idea of those specific names leads to some sort of guaranteed buy-in on the part of the audience. As such, they're going to expect something related to their perception of that brand.

But, you can overcome that. Audiences are actually rather receptive to alternate takes if those takes are executed well. You make it harder on yourself trying something new, but if you pull it off, the payoff is amazing. In some cases, you'll literally cause a change in the property moving forward - Burton's Batman or RDJ's take on Tony Stark, for example. I'm open to new takes because comic films and TV shows diverge so sharply from their source material and as a fan of foreign media, properties like Gundam and Kamen Rider constantly test the limits of their brands.

What many are grasping at is the alternate take here did not work for them. Not everyone is able to articulate that to the degree of our best posters. They wanted beer, the filmmakers tried to deliver wine, but instead we got Mad Dog 20/20. The audience is unhappy because it's not beer, but it's also not wine. "It's not what I wanted, but it's also not as good."

That's what I'm trying to get at. The film failed a statistically significant part of its audience. The consistent argument I'm seeing bandied about is the audience and critics failed the film and I'm just not seeing that as the case. It's not the tone, previous Batman films did fine. It's not Marvel vs. DC, because most moviegoers aren't that steeped in comic culture to care. There's something missing and many point to the small bits that the film gets wrong for them; when it's all said and done, the film didn't connect.

It's the difference between the first Matrix film and Reloaded/Revolutions. All three are trying to tackle heavy themes, but only the first one executes them in a way that fully connects with the audience. The others flail at relating those themes to the audience; you can see the attempt, but it's not satisfying or entertaining.
 
I

inky

Member
Optimusdouche said:
You said they aren't samey or feel like they are part of the same TV show. I said they are.
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I said The Winter Soldier and Guardians are different enough to not feel like that. Which they are.

I also recognize they follow a line and are trying to tell smaller stories inside a bigger connected story, just like MoS and BvS and Justice League and (some of) the X-Men movies are/or/and will eventually be. There's no big epiphany to be had here by comparing them to a serialized medium. That's the whole appeal and the whole point. They still do enough differently (particularly the 2 examples I posted) that if you see them back to back you could still enjoy them as separate things. Just like I imagine, Suicide Squad and BvS will be, even if they share at least one character in that case.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
MHWilliams said:
I said this previously, but that "You only want Superman to be X" idea prevailed.

A dark or more wild Superman can work well. There's been a ton of that.

Injustice (The Comic, not the Game)


Red Son


Supreme Power


Irredeemable


Majestic (He varies)


I have no problems with a rougher Superman.

New 52


American Alien


All of those were amazing - with the exception of the latter part of Supreme Power, where it crashed under its own weight, and American Alien, which isn't done - but it's down to the execution. You can to create a compelling story with compelling characters. You need to sell me on that take of Superman. MoS and BvS have yet to do that for me.

That's not down to tone, that's down to what I felt was poor execution.

You can sell an audience on anything, but it has to come down to good writing and presentation. Batman as fine. He killed a bunch of people, which is fine, I just would've liked to dig into the reasons behind that take on Batman a bit more. (Like explaining if the kill rule existed prior to the Joker or was a response to him, because otherwise, the Joker being alive is hard to swallow.) Otherwise, his motivations were straightforward, just a few small issues here and there, mostly in the resolution of the ultimate conflict between the two heroes. Superman is where we falter.
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What are some good wildstorm comics? I've never really taken a look at them. Majestic made me curious.
 
B

Bigfoot

Member
So basically BvS "failing" doesn't affect the DCCU much at all in the next few years because things have filmed and are continuing to film.

If anything it could hurt the universe if the next few movies disappoint or they might just add more light hearted feel to future movies.

I guess everyone claiming that BvS killed the DCCU was exaggerating.
 
N

Neoxon

Junior Member
ArtHands said:
I see Suicide Squad as a betrayal to DC's belief as the movie seems to have too much fun. If you want fun movie, go watch those shallow Marvel films.

I dont watch DC films for fun. I watch them for the dark and gritty, deep, though provoking aspects.

I prefer future DC films to be more like BvS. It makes the audience thinks a lot and makes them feel sad (over the fate of a character) after the movie.
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giphy.gif



Slayven said:
Cyan, I knew you were good people.
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But....Deadpool
 
N

NightShift

Member
BvS is struggling to outgross Deadpool?!? I'm touching myself tonight.

I know this may be an unpopular opinion but I hope this means DC will follow the tone of the Marvel movies more. There's a reason why they make so much money, it's because they're fun. I just want the DCCU to be fun.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
Slayven said:
The Majestic solo series are glorious,

And the High in World's End is great
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Thanks, I'll check it out.

Any opinions on stormwatch, wildcats or the authority?

Time's like this I wish there was a dc unlimited. How much of a real demand is there for wiildstorm trades lmao.

Astrocity has been on my to read list for a long ass time as well.
 
S

Slayven

Member
Schweinehund said:
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Any opinions on stormwatch, wildcats or the authority?

Time's like this I wish there was a dc unlimited. How much of a real demand is there for wiildstorm trades lmao.
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Authority is very much a product of it's time, and has not aged well at all. If you read the Ultimates, you will get nothing from the Authority.

The Kev spinoffs of the Authority are gold because they make fun of that shit.

Wildcats is alright, just your bog standard 90s teambook

Now Wildcore was the shit
1810784-wildcore4a.jpg
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You haven't read Astrocity? treat yourself.
 
B

Blader

Member
Schweinehund said:
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Any opinions on stormwatch, wildcats or the authority?

Time's like this I wish there was a dc unlimited. How much of a real demand is there for wiildstorm trades lmao.

Astrocity has been on my to read list for a long ass time as well.
Click to expand...

Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch's run on The Authority is a lot of fun, one of the first "widescreen action" comics.
 
S

Schweinehund

Member
Slayven said:
Authority is very much a product of it's time, and has not aged well at all. If you read the Ultimates, you will get nothing from the Authority.

The Kev spinoffs of the Authority are gold because they make fun of that shit.

Wildcats is alright, just your bog standard 90s teambook

Now Wildcore was the shit


You haven't read Astrocity? treat yourself.
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Yeah I'll probably fast track Astrocity since I've liked Busiek's work in the past. I plan on jumping into marvel unlimited soon so I'll take a look at ultimates too.

Also I'm laughing at the concept and name of deathblow. I thought deathstroke was edgy but shit...

Blader said:
Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch's run on The Authority is a lot of fun, one of the first "widescreen action" comics.
Click to expand...

I've never read anything by Ellis but I've heard of Planetary & Transmetropolitan, so I'll give that a go as well.
 
A

anaron

Member
the idea that "DC is supposed to be gritty and dark" is hilarious and so indicative of someone who doesn't actually read comics.
 
C

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
Astro City is massive, such a good comic. Busiek's verbosity is a bit much at times though, tends to be walls of text more than Blader's movie reviews

Cyan said:
False. There are no good X-Men movies.
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tumblr_mx7x5q7pi61r713xdo1_400.gif


I didn't think I would see the day
 
B

Blader

Member
Schweinehund said:
I've never read anything by Ellis but I've heard of Planetary & Transmetropolitan, so I'll give that a go as well.
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Oh right, I forgot Planetary was Wildstorm. Yeah, both that and Transmet are great reads. Honestly there are a few Ellis comics you can go wrong with. Even his more disposable stuff is still pretty fun.

anaron said:
the idea that "DC is supposed to be gritty and dark" is hilarious and so indicative of someone who doesn't actually read comics.
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Or, someone who read Identity Crisis :lol
 
A

AniHawk

Member
okay so suddenly do another superman standalone movie, but make it very much like the christopher reeve/richard donner interpretation of superman (maybe not so goofy and not actually tied to the series like superman returns was). then do a batman movie with suicide squad joker, and then a justice league movie with boy scout superman and a different interpretation of those heroes.

then do a three-parter crisis on infinite earths to unify the television stuff and the movies.
 
B

Blader

Member
Currygan said:
Astro City is massive, such a good comic. Busiek's verbosity is a bit much at times though, tends to be walls of text more than Blader's movie reviews
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Surely you are thinking of one-paragraph-only Ridley! :lol

The first volume of Astro City is excellent. Actually, the very first issue is a great Superman analog story.
 
R

Ross61

Member
Fuck following Marvel with their tone. You can keep the tone while making it more accessible to the general audience.
 
M

MrToughPants

Brian Burke punched my mom
ArtHands said:
I see Suicide Squad as a betrayal to DC's belief as the movie seems to have too much fun. If you want fun movie, go watch those shallow Marvel films.

I dont watch DC films for fun. I watch them for the dark and gritty, deep, though provoking aspects.

I prefer future DC films to be more like BvS. It makes the audience thinks a lot and makes them feel sad (over the fate of a character) after the movie.
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This post is art.
 
C

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
Blader said:
Surely you are thinking of one-paragraph-only Ridley! :lol

The first volume of Astro City is excellent. Actually, the very first issue is a great Superman analog story.
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lol I'm sorry mate, very sorry

I adore that first issue. In just two pages it flawlessly exemplifies how tired a Superman must be of saving the world multiple times a day instead of using his powers to simply...fly. It's a concept so simple yet almost completely ignored until that moment
 
E

ElBoxyBrown

Banned
kswiston said:
Maybe they read TDKR, Identity Crisis, and Cry for Justice and called it a day.
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Don't get the poster wrong. DC can do some really good dark and gritty stuff. Sometimes they overshadow the tone of other DC comics cuz their so good.

Cry for Justice tho........LMAO.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
Ross61 said:
Ryan Reynolds and Chris Hemsworth either but they play their respective roles great.
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forreal. well hemsworth's thor being great is debatable but good actors like bale and rdj are the exception rather than the norm.

aquaman is prolly looking for a good supporting cast to prop up momoa's suspect performance.
 
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