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[Garlador]

People so obsessed with the jokes vs no jokes narrative when Faraci explicitly says the problem isn't the lack of comedy.

Yeah.

It's like how I can rave on and on about how much I enjoyed Daredevil Season 2, which is dark and gritty, and yet dislike BvS. It's not about the "dark and gritty"... it's about doing a good, smart, sensible story with characters you can root for.

It's weird as hell I can like and root for the PUNISHER more than Superman.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

they should have let singer continue with superman. the first one made batman begins money..the sequel could have had good growth and would have been an improvement.

the preferred tone of character was there at least. big mistake by WB canning that and rebooting with snyder.

Budget was a third higher, it only made slightly more money and the critical reception wasn't as good. BB was more successful on essentially every measure so it's not surprising to me that it got a continuation while Superman didn't.

Also Returns sucks lolol

 

[G-Fex]

I don't give a shit i'll forgive superbaby. Just bring back that superman ;_;

 

[Talon]

I see Suicide Squad as a betrayal to DC's belief as the movie seems to have too much fun. If you want fun movie, go watch those shallow Marvel films.

I dont watch DC films for fun. I watch them for the dark and gritty, deep, though provoking aspects.

I prefer future DC films to be more like BvS. It makes the audience thinks a lot and makes them feel sad (over the fate of a character) after the movie.

Grim /= Sunstance

 

[Divvy]

It's not that the movie needs to be funny, or needs quips. It needs moments of levity to break up the unrelenting serious and dour tone. Otherwise the audience gets sick of it and ends up getting bored. It's something storytellers learned centuries ago, and is as true now as it was then.

 

[Dabanton]

I do not understand why the action scenes were so bad in that movie.

I mean, they weren't amazing in Nolan's first two Batman movies, but they at least were serviceable, in that you believed Batman was fighting people and was good at it.

The fight scenes are shot wider. So you can't hide bad fight choreography with fast camera movements. Which TDKR had plenty of.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

The last Bat film was bad (I could argue for the first Nolan film as well). The last Superman film was worse. And BvS was a crime.

I have no hope for DC films.

As for Marvel. IM3 was pretty bad. So was Thor 2. And yea Avengers 2 had some issues... But most of them are pretty good.

 

[yanipheonu]

I understand the push back on the funny vs dark argument and at the end of the day it doesn't matter: it just needed to be a good movie.

But I saw this movie where they bombing the capitol building, events that mimic 9/11, and heroes don't act like heroes.

Seeing a big CNN banner over the burning capitol building felt like a more tasteless callback to the most fearful parts of people's real lives than anything. Could have worked in a smarter script, but the whole Capitol scene was largely unnecessary anyways.

I feel like the Dark tone could be a wrong move in an audience that sees real terrorist attacks on TV and has resorted to stuff like Trump rallies to channel that fear. People are clearly craving blind hope.

Maybe more lighthearted superhero escapism would seem better to the wide audience. Even Deadpool, gore and crudeness abounding, got the escapism down.

 

[broncobuster]

While I'm sure there will be a faction that will hold steadfast to their one and true superman being a shining beacon, I feel if we had a good movie with a dark superman, there would be far less resistance to it.

Good writing always wins out in the end, I think, or hope atleast.

I'm losing track of where I'm posting what, but I used Red Son as an example of the 'dark' Superman handled well.

Without spoiling that story, the Supes vs Bats fight is...actually it's tame for M Miller. Way meaner than BvS or TDKReturns fights, though.

 

[Kibbles]

Again, the Suicide Squad reshoots are only for Killer Croc because he had schedule conflicts earlier (confirmed my a makeup artist from the film on twitter, and they were planned last year). Will Smith has been filming a different movie in New York (clean shaven, unlike his SS character), all the other guys have grown out their hair and beards and are in no shape to reprise their roles, Cara is filming another movie as well.

 

[Chariot]

Again, the Suicide Squad reshoots are only for Killer Croc because he had schedule conflicts earlier (confirmed my a makeup artist from the film on twitter, and they were planned last year). Will Smith has been filming a different movie in New York (with a full head of hair, unlike his SS character), all the other guys have grown out their hair and beards and are in no shape to reprise their roles, Cara is filming another movie as well.

How many scenes does Croc have where no other actors are needed?

 

[Veelk]

I'm losing track of where I'm posting what, but I used Red Son as an example of the 'dark' Superman handled well.

Without spoiling that story, the Supes vs Bats fight is...actually it's tame for M Miller. Way meaner than BvS or TDKReturns fights, though.

Been meaning to read that one since forever.

But honestly, a dark Superman story doesn't even have to involve superman himself being dark. He can just be placed in a world that's dark and he can't find a way to improve.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

Give Bruce Timm a shot already. Marvel/Disney is so lucky they have Kevin Feige.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Been meaning to read that one since forever.

But honestly, a dark Superman story doesn't even have to involve superman himself being dark. He can just be placed in a world that's dark and he can't find a way to improve.

I remember some of us hoping that, when news of the R-Rated extended cut first dropped, such a scenario would be the case.

Give Bruce Timm a shot already.

He doesn't want it.

 

[Ocarina_117]

DC.. just do what ya gotta do to give me a Shazam movie.

 

[Kibbles]

How many scenes does Croc have where no other actors are needed?

I'm guessing his origin/batman capture scenes.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Why not just create a sub-forum for BvS discussion? Every day, there is another negative thread.

 

[jett]

Haha. You must seriously be joking.

In anycase... the Marvel films are varied for what they are. You see one and you get a different flavor of a film genre then you get the big action pack blockbuster Avenger films every few years.

So far we've had
Iron Man - An action movie
Thor - A mythological epic
Captain America - A war movie
Iron Man 2 - We don't speak about this one
Avengers - Blockbuster!
Iron Man 3 - A Crime Drama
Winter Solid - A Spy film
Thor 2 - Another Mythological one
Guardians of the Galaxy - A Space Opera
Avengers 2 - Blockbuster!
Ant-Man - A Heist Film

Dat epic where most of the action takes place in Bumfuck Town, USA.

 

[Dabanton]

Why not just create a sub-forum for BvS discussion? Every day, there is another negative thread.

Maybe it will be a reverse of the MCU threads were we slowly come to love BvS begrudgingly after the directors cut.

Instead of loving it and then tearing it apart like every MCU movie after the honeymoon period

 

[captainnapalm]

There's a lot you can take issue with there, but what's the point. It's exhausting battling the film's detractors. I don't know what fuels them, but it's impressive stamina they have.

I hope that Snyder can just do his best with JL now. It looks like it's going ahead and he has a lot of work ahead of him. He said it was epic, and I can believe that, considering this crazy Darkseid alternate timeline plot they're cooking up.

 

[Discotheque]

There's a lot you can take issue with there, but what's the point. It's exhausting battling the film's detractors. I don't know what fuels them, but it's impressive stamina they have.

I hope that Snyder can just do his best with JL now. It looks like it's going ahead and he has a lot of work ahead of him. He said it was epic, and I can believe that, considering this crazy Darkseid alternate timeline plot they're cooking up.

that's incredibly ambitious. but it would work more if you can contrast that evil dictator superman with nice boy superman. which he absolutely has to be in justice league. if he's not like that in that film then snyder just completely failed the character and the arc he keeps promising.

if they want to keep that alt timeline plot they need to intersperse it in the film like DOFP.

 

[JaggedSac]

So more quips?

 

[captainnapalm]

that's incredibly ambitious. but it would work more if you can contrast that evil dictator superman with nice boy superman. which he absolutely has to be in justice league. if he's not like that in that film then snyder just completely failed the character and the arc he keeps promising.

if they want to keep that alt timeline plot they need to intersperse it in the film like DOFP.

I would hope so. God knows if we only get bad Darkseid timeline Superman, people will not be happy.

 

[Shaanyboi]

How many scenes does Croc have where no other actors are needed?

It's likely to not really be really reliant on the rest of the cast if it's either a separate sequence entirely, or just isolated inserts.

It could be other actors' shots were already finished. I think it was Lord of the Rings where there were acouple cases of a single scene, and then two years later, they had to reshoot only one actor's part. So you essentially would have an exchange between two actors two years apart.

 

[Senoculum]

Affleck's Batman is one of the highlights of an otherwise bad film...

... But he's still mowing down criminals, slaughtering his adversaries, and generally is a far, FAR cry from "World's Greatest Detective".

He fights well. Okay? That's like dangling keys in front of a toddler.

I'm more interested in the reasons behind WHY he fights, rather than how impressive the choreography is.

So the film is iconoclastic, in that it tears down what we cherish about the characters - but in no way does it offend the spirit of the characters. Just like the characters, as represented, in a plethora of media. Brave and the Bold is just as valid as the Arkham series Batman. Don't tell me all the explosions and the slamming of heads in electrical junctions convinces you the victims were okay due to the handy x-ray saying ""unconsious"). Batman's greatest power is the author who writes him. And in this case we DO get a compelling reason why he does what he does. Not only is it in the opening sequence, but he repeatedly shares his beliefs and fears. And on top of that, he sees the error of his ways in the finale. It was a excellent growth of character.

What I want to know is, why is Batfleck getting this specific flak, when the preceding Batman films had the character kill with the just the same intentions?

And let's be real, Batman's detective skills have never been lent well to cinema, but what does work well on-screen are the use of his gadgets and bat computer - which the film faithfully ties in.

 

[Fox Mulder]

The last Bat film was bad (I could argue for the first Nolan film as well). The last Superman film was worse. And BvS was a crime.

I have no hope for DC films.

As for Marvel. IM3 was pretty bad. So was Thor 2. And yea Avengers 2 had some issues... But most of them are pretty good.

I loved Guardians and Antman, two movies I expected little from. Winter soldier is fucking awesome.

I wish Marvel hadn't shown spiderman in a trailer in a hype war with this shitty movie.

 

[kurahador]

Give Bruce Timm a shot already. Marvel/Disney is so lucky they have Kevin Feige.

It's not lucky, it's about proper management. Star Wars has Kathleen Kennedy.

 

[Slayven]

Cyborg, we'll see with that one

 

[MHWilliams]

OTOH the idea of Dark Superman Movies being "wrong" comes up constantly. I think there is definitely opposition to that. If not that the movie is dark then that they don't feel Superman is being heroic and bright enough as a contrast.

I said this previously, but that "You only want Superman to be X" idea prevailed.

A dark or more wild Superman can work well. There's been a ton of that.

Injustice (The Comic, not the Game)

Red Son

Supreme Power

Irredeemable

Majestic (He varies)

I have no problems with a rougher Superman.

New 52

American Alien

All of those were amazing - with the exception of the latter part of Supreme Power, where it crashed under its own weight, and American Alien, which isn't done - but it's down to the execution. You can to create a compelling story with compelling characters. You need to sell me on that take of Superman. MoS and BvS have yet to do that for me.

That's not down to tone, that's down to what I felt was poor execution.

You can sell an audience on anything, but it has to come down to good writing and presentation. Batman as fine. He killed a bunch of people, which is fine, I just would've liked to dig into the reasons behind that take on Batman a bit more. (Like explaining if the kill rule existed prior to the Joker or was a response to him, because otherwise, the Joker being alive is hard to swallow.) Otherwise, his motivations were straightforward, just a few small issues here and there, mostly in the resolution of the ultimate conflict between the two heroes. Superman is where we falter.

 

[Replicant]

Wkd Box-Office | BvS: Watch them for the dark and gritty, deep, though provoking aspects

 

[Dalek]

Why not just create a sub-forum for BvS discussion? Every day, there is another negative thread.

Batman v Superman Forum
Negative Threads 293,089 • Posts: 41,443,031
Positive Threads 82 • Posts: 1,128

 

[onipex]

Its weird that he names Deadpool like its part of what Marvel is doing. WB/DC needs to fix a few things moving forward but it was clear from the first trailer that SS would be different from BvS. Hell it has Harley and the Joker in it and that alone would make it very different.

As someone that liked BvS I have not no problem if they make changes. I don't want another slate of MCU like movies though.

 

[kobu]

I'm guessing his origin/batman capture scenes.

So they're going to have scenes of batman capturing super villains in that movie when he was straight up murdering average dudes six months earlier?

 

[Setsuna]

Marvels' one liners work because there are likable personalities with known storylines and histories saying them.

"hide the zucchini" being a reference to Hulk banging Black Widow

 

[Htown]

What I want to know is, why is Batfleck getting this specific flak, when the preceding Batman films had the character kill with the just the same intentions?

I definitely don't like any film version of Batman that kills. The Burton films were just so weird and contrary to what Batman was in the public consciousness at the time, that they kind of got a pass due to their uniqueness.

I also feel like, while Tim Burton has kind of proven to be as much of a one-trick pony as Zack Snyder, the trick is way better and it's more tightly executed.

 

[Father_Brain]

They need better characters. Wonder Woman is the only character in this movie I want to see another movie about, and that's probably just because they didn't give her enouh material for me to end up hating her.

I can all but guarantee you that she would have had plenty of gratuitous killing and/or moping to do if this were an actual Trinity film.

 

[Slayven]

I said this previously, but that "You only want Superman to be X" idea prevailed.

A dark or more wild Superman can work well. There's been a ton of that.

Injustice (The Comic, not the Game)


Red Son


Supreme Power


Irredeemable


Majestic (He varies)


I have no problems with a rougher Superman.

New 52


American Alien


All of those were amazing - with the exception of the latter part of Supreme Power, where it crashed under its own weight, and American Alien, which isn't done - but it's down to the execution. You can to create a compelling story with compelling characters. You need to sell me on that take of Superman. MoS and BvS have yet to do that for me.

That's not down to tone, that's down to what I felt was poor execution.

You can sell an audience on anything, but it has to come down to good writing and presentation. Batman as fine. He killed a bunch of people, which is fine, I just would've liked to dig into the reasons behind that take on Batman a bit more. (Like explaining if the kill rule existed prior to the Joker or was a response to him, because otherwise, the Joker being alive is hard to swallow.) Otherwise, his motivations were straightforward, just a few small issues here and there, mostly in the resolution of the ultimate conflict between the two heroes. Superman is where we falter.

Not to mention Batman checking Superman when he over steps his bounds

 

[JB1981]

Hasn't this dude confessed to have a strong bias against all things DC.

He may have some insights with regards to some ongoings at WB but I can't help but feel he's twisting knowledge to sell a narrative.

He's a major Marvel/Whedon fanboy but his points have merit

 

[BadAss2961]

Again, the Suicide Squad reshoots are only for Killer Croc because he had schedule conflicts earlier (confirmed my a makeup artist from the film on twitter, and they were planned last year). Will Smith has been filming a different movie in New York (clean shaven, unlike his SS character), all the other guys have grown out their hair and beards and are in no shape to reprise their roles, Cara is filming another movie as well.

Faraci's got the whole internet thinking the reshoots are to add humor. Several sites have spread his lies.

 

[MHWilliams]

Not to mention Batman checking Superman when he over steps his bounds

Alfred handling Superman in Injustice is up there.

 

[JB1981]

Dat epic where most of the action takes place in Bumfuck Town, USA.

Lol

 

[Slayven]

Alfred handling Superman in Injustice is up there.

Why Bruce look like Abe Lincoln?

 

[AlteredBeast]

I enjoyed the setting and tone of this movie. It isn't right for every movie, and especially not light hearted stories like The Flash, but a movie about a grizzled and jaded Bruce Wayne hunting down an alien threat should have been dark. Fuck the haters.

Now, given that the DCEU is director-driven, each film gets to have it's own feel to it. SS won't be BvS won't be Wonder Woman won't be Aquaman, etc.

I haven't watched the past couple MCU movies because they all started to feel the same. You could sense thr man behind the curtain.

It felt like a half-decent television series, not new interesting takes on characters I knew and loved. I will be there for Civil War eventually, but I am just not excited if it just ends up as another quip-fest. Maybe if a character actually dies, and I mean ACTUALLY dies, then the universe will deal with some real issues. I doubt it, but we will see. Iron Man 3 tried mostly unsuccessfully to deal with PTSD, but at least it tried something. I definitely give it credit for that.

I like BvS because the characters aren't superlative versions of thenselves. It is more interesting to me to see characters deal with pain, guilt, mortality and loss than to see them sing kumbaya while fighting a big bad.

 

[old manatee]

Faraci is soooo full of crap. It doesn't take a genius to realize WB aign't happy with BvS box office performance.

So...you guys have the same opinion but somehow he's the only one that's full of crap.

 

[Cipherr]

Oof, Marvel can make Marvel from now until eternity. Good on them. People like their movies. Good for them. But man, the last thing I want is every comic book movie attempting to ape their approach.

I mean. That dream is already dead. It died the moment Avengers did 1.5 billion and everyone from other comic rights holders to Transformers to Call of Duty Movies, to LEGO and more. Everyone is sort of already aping their approach pretty damn heavily.

The whole grounded tone isn't anything new, Nolan was succeeding at it before Avengers the movie even dropped so I think everyone knows it can be done properly. They just have to..... do it properly. I'm still holding for Suicide Squad. I think that's going to be the real starting point of excitement for DC's connected films.

 

[Optimusdouche]

I truly despise Faraci think pieces. They really are the sort that make 'think piece' a pejorative. Tons of obvious points, and not much interesting.

And let us not forget that Faraci pretty much loved Suckerpunch.

 

[inky]

I haven't watched the past couple MCU movies because they all started to feel the same. You could sense thr man behind the curtain.

It felt like a half-decent television series, not new interesting takes on characters I knew and loved. I will be there for Civil War eventually, but I am just not excited if it just ends up as another quip-fest. Maybe if a character actually dies, and I mean ACTUALLY dies, then the universe will deal with some real issues. I doubt it, but we will see. Iron Man 3 tried mostly unsuccessfully to deal with PTSD, but at least it tried something. I definitely give it credit for that.

The Winter Soldier isn't a quipfest. It's also pretty different than Guardians of the Galaxy, not another episode of the same TV show. Quicksilver is actually dead. More dead than Superman at least, for the time being. Is death the only way to do consequences? Will you stop respecting the DCEU when Superman turns out to be not dead?

These things are already there. The movies are what they are, we are 12 deep already, so why are you torturing yourself through them if you don't like them anymore?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I said this previously, but that "You only want Superman to be X" idea prevailed.

A dark or more wild Superman can work well. There's been a ton of that.

Injustice (The Comic, not the Game)


Red Son


Supreme Power


Irredeemable


Majestic (He varies)


I have no problems with a rougher Superman.

New 52


American Alien


All of those were amazing - with the exception of the latter part of Supreme Power, where it crashed under its own weight, and American Alien, which isn't done - but it's down to the execution. You can to create a compelling story with compelling characters. You need to sell me on that take of Superman. MoS and BvS have yet to do that for me.

That's not down to tone, that's down to what I felt was poor execution.

You can sell an audience on anything, but it has to come down to good writing and presentation. Batman as fine. He killed a bunch of people, which is fine, I just would've liked to dig into the reasons behind that take on Batman a bit more. (Like explaining if the kill rule existed prior to the Joker or was a response to him, because otherwise, the Joker being alive is hard to swallow.) Otherwise, his motivations were straightforward, just a few small issues here and there, mostly in the resolution of the ultimate conflict between the two heroes. Superman is where we falter.

Several of these aren't Superman stories, but I'm aware of the existence of most already. You could tenuously add Watchmen to the list given that Doctor Manhattan exists as kind of an riff on the Superman archetype.

What I was pointing out that there was a current of criticism appearing in BvS threads that was to the effect of Superman needing to conform to a specific idealised version of the character - some people referenced some of the stories you're talking about and said basically that they wouldn't like the Injustice story to appear in Justice League because they felt that you needed to "earn" the story by first having Superman appear as his idealised self to contrast the fallen superman with more firmly. There were also wide criticisms that MoS / BvS superman "wasn't Superman" or that Snyder did not understand the characters, most recently and prominently I saw the Max Landis video where he posts about 4 minutes of himself repeating variations on "Well, Batman vs Superman does not feature DC comics characters, they have the same name but they are in no way connected to them". I'm assuming you would have seen a lot of these types of comments since you frequented a lot of the same BvS threads.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not disagreeing that BvS is a mess on some levels, but I also think that there was a lot more resistence to Darker Superman than there was to Darker Batman, this film didn't need to be amazing for people to be praising this version of Batman as one of the best things in it, while this version of Superman is still on people's shit lists.

 

[Optimusdouche]

The Winter Soldier isn't a quipfest. It's also pretty different than Guardians of the Galaxy, not another episode of the same TV show.

Quicksilver is actually dead. More dead than Superman at least, for the time being.

These things are already there. The movies are what they are, we are 12 deep already, so why are you torturing yourself through them if you don't like them anymore?

No, but Winter Soldier absolutely feels like its from the MCU, and feels of the same variety.

MCU is great, consistently fun movies, that are true to the source material. But, they absolutely feel samey. Why wouldn't they, all the movies are pretty much made by the same group of producers.

Many directors of MCU movies have zero big budget technical experience, because Marvel Movies is a well oiled machine, with almost no room for director creative control. It has served them well.

 

[inky]

No, but Winter Soldier absolutely feels like its from the MCU, and feels of the same variety.

MCU is great, consistently fun movies, that are true to the source material. But, they absolutely feel samey. Why wouldn't they, all the movies are pretty much made by the same group of producers.

Many directors of MCU movies have zero big budget technical experience, because Marvel Movies is a well oiled machine, with almost no room for director creative control. It has served them well.

Well, good, because they are indeed connected. I'm not saying that they aren't. Not sure what's your point here... it feels like you agree with me, so?