Well the reason I assume would be because medicine isn't Science, Technology, Engineering, or Math. Doctors aren't really counted as STEM either.
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Did women doom themselves by being technologically averse?
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Well the reason I assume would be because medicine isn't Science, Technology, Engineering, or Math. Doctors aren't really counted as STEM either.
InsaneZero
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Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
And this is the exact problem I have with the STEM wording.
How is a Biology/Chemistry related medical field NOT SCIENCE?
Agent Cooper
Member
Because doctors and nurses don't practice the scientific method. Related to science != scientist!
It has been observed in capuchins, I believe, though I may be misremembering as well. I am unsure about other primates.
However, given the range of standards for both gender regimes (Two genders? Three genders? More? How are they understood?) and for what are considered appropriate behaviors and interests for a person to perform their gender correctly around the world, I think it is probably safe to say that humans are apparently more malleable through socialization. And I think that all else being equal, we should try to have a society in which members of whatever gender are socialized in such a way that certain career choices do not feel as though they are proscribed, either explicitly or implicitly.
I agree with what Orayn said; the default assumption should be one of equality, not of biological difference.
The lack of role models might contribute (though I don't know whether most STEM kids male or female get in because of role models... but then I'm not a STEM major, so what do I know?), but I think that very lack of role models is probably itself caused by the aforementioned.
And regarding the point about gendered toy choices in other primates: Legos are a good example of the way a toy can become gendered and result in what amounts to gender-segregated lines, one for boys and one for girls, they don't interact with each other and are marketed in completely different ways based on stereotypical assumptions about what male and female interests are.
Dude Abides
Banned
Because you're not actually doing any science. An RN wouldn't know a redox reaction from a Krebs cycle from a hole in the wall. A doctor might remember the terms from school but that's it.
QuiteWhittle
Member
Doctors and nurses aren't usually scientists, please do not make that mistake.
Physician-scientists do exist obviously, but they make up only small percentage of new MDs.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
As someone who has a STEM degree and many other friends with STEM degrees and many other friends in the medical field some of whom also have the generally accepted STEM degrees we've had this exact conversation and we all agreed this widely used statement (worded in many fashions) is down right laughable.
PS: It IS worth noting that the US government says medical related and biorelated fields of study fit their current definition of STEM degrees.
I do sincerely hope that you are one of the two competent ones.
Yeah, that's why, at least in my mind it's not that big of a concern that they're aren't that many women in STEM, because there are a TON in the medical field, which is a pretty important industry now and going forward.
Yes, the male one, so there is no cybering with a female software engineer for you tonight.
If the subject can bruse, it´s not science, easy as that. :>
Steve Youngblood
Member
But why do we need different marketing for better sales for Legos amongst girls? Why don't girls -- or perhaps more aptly parents of girls -- think that regular Legos are gender neutral? What about Legos screams "this a toy for boys?"
Women going third party.
But seriously:
Stanfords Most Popular Major Is Now Computer Science
http://mashable.com/2012/07/01/stanford-top-major-computer-science/
There are lots of women in college. While men are more eager to seclude themselves in basement and garage dungeons and work on projects, nearly everyone does what they need to in order to become prosperous and affect societal change.
But seriously:
Stanfords Most Popular Major Is Now Computer Science
http://mashable.com/2012/07/01/stanford-top-major-computer-science/
There are lots of women in college. While men are more eager to seclude themselves in basement and garage dungeons and work on projects, nearly everyone does what they need to in order to become prosperous and affect societal change.
what the heck does this have to do with anything? You've heard of tech support and desktop support and laptop support and software support right?
^Good God. This.
^Good God. This.
... But I'm the gay mod.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah don't get me started on LEGO gendering. Just buy a big bucket of red/white/black/yellow rectangle bricks.
Well, first, this assumes that marketing just advertises products to an objective, unchanging field of demand. In reality, a huge amount of products sell due to high-volume, low-intensity demand built off of marketing or due to a lack of preferable alternatives.
But more importantly, it assumes companies emphasize profitability as the sole determinant of marketing. Even a superficial look at the creative industries, though, will reveal a parade of breakthrough hit products that defy, say, gender stereotypes (The Legend of Korra! Bridesmaids! The Hunger Games!) after years of the industries in question swearing up and down that no product of that kind could ever possibly be successful.
I think the comic Mumei hot linked pretty much nails it. Ultimately it's an issue of socialization and i think the OP is framed in a way that puts the onus of the issue on women. As a society we need to understand the consequences of the way we socialize boys and girls and the ultimate effect that has on so many trends later in life.
Vermillion
Banned
How many guys get computers though as kids? Replace dolls with action figures and you have my childhood. Then I eventually got a GBA, I guess.
Devolution
Member
You don't have to get a computer but ultimately getting babies that wet themselves and ovens as toys sends a pretty clear message.
Vermillion
Banned
Which reminds me of two things:
1) I always wanted an Easy Bake oven
2) My godsister got one and she still owes me cake
On top of this, it doesn't help that being a good student will actively make you less socially viable in America.
Even the most Luddite women I know are perfectly capable of having successful and lucrative careers. Or are you just referring to women in technological fields?
TheRagnCajun
Member
Are we talking about equality? Or sameness?
Are you saying that what we're discussing is biological and not cultural?
My sisters dolls did nothing but perhaps wet themselves and cry while their Barbies did absolutely nothing at all. My brother and I had many toys which much more interactive to go along with our action figures. My sisters moved on from dolls to makeup and boys while my brother and I moved onto consoles and computers.
HocusPocus
Member
Women marry nerds and divorce them with a huge settlement to offset the income gap created by this.
Most high schools in the United States are advanced training for social conformity.
That probably that places far greater pressure on people who have any chance of being socially viable. When you're doomed to look like the part of a "nerd", it (probably) doesn't hurt nearly as much to play the part.
Has anyone done a study on yearly revenue gained by divorcing women in the US? Google has nothing for me.
TheRagnCajun
Member
No, I'm just trying to figure out exactly what statement is being made.
Mumei said:
I Agree
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Dolls are useful too. Imagine a world with little emotional intelligence. Fuck that noise. Too many emotionally retarded people as it is right now.
And all boys played with dolls too. They just shot guns or had huge muscles and were called "Action Figures."
charlequin
Banned
I'm not saying people can't have dolls too, just that everyone should get some LEGO!
Are you saying that men are technologically inferior?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Both sexes should be raised with equality and not proscribed any particular role. They should be encouraged in a variety of interests.
But IF we do that, and one particular sex does choose an activity more overwhelmingly than the other, we shouldn't be mad about it. If there are biological differences... let them reveal themselves. There may be additional work to do based on that occurance (for example, perhaps males and females need to be encouraged to do profession X in different ways).
But IF we do that, and one particular sex does choose an activity more overwhelmingly than the other, we shouldn't be mad about it. If there are biological differences... let them reveal themselves. There may be additional work to do based on that occurance (for example, perhaps males and females need to be encouraged to do profession X in different ways).
blame space
Banned
have you guys read about the history of the barbie doll? it's messed up.
Devolution
Member
As was previously mentioned action figures were still more interactive the most interactivity with Barbie is choosing her latest outfit. Then you got to move on to remote control cars, NERF, and video games. Girls generally go from dolls/babies to easy bake ovens to beauty care.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
im referring to the near future when most jobs will be technological in nature
teruterubozu
Member
The thread title suggests women shot themselves in the foot somehow.
Devolution
Member
Do you think everyone is going to need to be a programmer? I see little girls using things with UI elements just as well as little boys.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That reminds me... this stuff works in the reverse too. I remember when my brother had an easy bake oven. Loved it. Then he found out "it was for girls". Future male professional chef cut off by sexism? Possibly!
charlequin
Banned
We don't.
Food is one of those interesting areas to look at, since food as prepared at home for the family is considered overwhelmingly feminine (to the point that people will disbelieve that a man, say, baked something at home or prepared dinner) but food as prepared professionally, especially in high-class establishments, is so dominantly male.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
no but everyone will need to be adaptable to new technologies. im not referring to kids now, since i think a lot of them are way ahead of the curve and have been raised with computers. its mostly women 20+ who avoided most technology until smartphones hit the mainstream
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