mejin
Member
PS5 is consistently beating X versions. Let them have their fun.
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Digital Foundry: Alan Wake 2 Xbox Tech Review - Excellent On Series X, But What About Series S?
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
PS5 is consistently beating X versions. Let them have their fun.
Portugeezer
Member
~55fps in performance is one thing, but sub 30fps on quality mode is trash.
It looks great though.
It looks great though.
FlyyGOD
Member
Sony's Parity clause probably.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Moving Gears to Tier 2 Variable Rate Shading - DirectX Developer Blog
The team at The Coalition haven’t stopped innovating since bringing Tier 1 VRS to Gears Tactics, and have brought Tier 2 VRS support to both Gears 5 and Gears Tactics. The team saw similarly large perf gains from VRS Tier 2 –
devblogs.microsoft.com
Again, bit of an exaggeration. Cyberpunk has supported VRS on Xbox since 2021 and no one noticed it outside of the one 400% zoom Oliver pointed out in the Phantom Liberty video.
After which the very next line he says is:
As for it still performing worse, well it's a performance gaining feature. If VRS was disabled, it would likely run a few frames worse. Not all engines universally play well with either console. This iteration of Red Engine runs better on PS5, but in all the new Phantom Liberty areas, they run identically otherwise.
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JackMcGunns
Member
Quite the opposite lol. Series S did perfectly fine, this is an excellent example for other devs to follow. The game looks like PS5/SX in performance mode, but running 30fps. Everyone wins! or in head to head terms, Xbox Series X wins with the overall better port thanks to its extra horsepower showing up
Bojji
Member
Moving Gears to Tier 2 Variable Rate Shading - DirectX Developer Blog
The team at The Coalition haven’t stopped innovating since bringing Tier 1 VRS to Gears Tactics, and have brought Tier 2 VRS support to both Gears 5 and Gears Tactics. The team saw similarly large perf gains from VRS Tier 2 –
Again, bit of an exaggeration. Cyberpunk has supported VRS on Xbox since 2021 and no one noticed it outside of the one 400% zoom Oliver pointed out in the Phantom Liberty video.
After which the very next line he says is:
As for it still performing worse, well it's a performance gaining feature. If VRS was disabled, it would likely run a few frames worse. Not all engines universally play well with either console. This iteration of Red Engine runs better on PS5, but in all the new Phantom Liberty areas, they run identically otherwise.
I was talking about CP implementation specifically, I tested Gears myself and difference was there with more aggressive settings.
But in many games VRS produces zero or close to zero difference and you can see it in Starfield, Dead Space etc. That's why I doubt using VRS in CP2077 was worth it at all.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
How come you don't have this view when Xbox is not performing well (off the top of my head Atomic Heart) Blaming split memory etc, now don't get me wrong XSX would be better without split memory speeds etc. But Atomic Heart as been patched a few times and runs great now on Xbox. You know at lot more than me about computers but in reality like most wannabe experts on here. You know fuck all.
JackMcGunns
Member
I haven't seen his views, but I've seen many head to heads and seen people making a big deal and filling the thread with ANOTHER ONE.gif when a PS5 version of a game is locked at 60fps and the SX is occasionally dropping to 59, 58fps... THAT right there shouldn't be a big deal, but no one can say anything because it's immediately pointed out that SX is the more powerful machine and shouldn't be the one dropping the frames, and I agree with that by the way, but in this comparison I'm seeing the PS5 version drop frames into the low 50s while the SX is hitting 60 pretty consistantly. Also he only said that the PS5 needs additional work to stabilise the performance, he's not even saying they can't get there due to the hardware difference. Sheesh!
Mister Wolf
Member
Because we don't give a shit about Atomic Heart. People give a shit about this game because it's the most technically impressive game released this generation. It's like bragging about winning your local Golden Gloves tournament then when you get to the Olympics you lose in the first round.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Yeah there's a few threads that poster pops up in and another poster Onq123 or something like that churning out the same stuff when Xbox is worse. They have good points but it's never the reason what they said about PS5 AW ie it needs a few patches which I believe the PS5 AW will get a up to the performance of the XSX version.
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Shit analogy and I wasn't talking about you.
Edit I apologize I didn't read what you said probably. I get what you are saying now.
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JackMcGunns
Member
"VRS Tier 2 offers a 14% GPU performance gain in Gears 5 with no perceptible difference in image quality"
No one ever complained about Gears 5 visuals on Series X, so a 14% GPU performance gain is pretty damn good, so why not use it? I mean unless you're doing it wrong, but the wrong implementation is not the fault of the feature.
akaFullmetal
Member
PS5 needs to bake more it seems.
JackMcGunns
Member
It clearly does, and on another note, hopefully we see this same energy when a Series X version of a game is doing worse.
Between consoles so par in power, you're rarely going to see significant differences if there's no reason beyond the hardware. But they can happen when the problem stems from the software and the optimization time. And that's been seen on several occasions where the XSX version was blatantly left on the back burner while the PS5 version was favored. That's why it's not an "excuse" and it does have relevance. Otherwise would be to accept that cases like Calisto Protocol were the result of advantages in the PS5 hardware and limitations of XSX (as many here tried to defend) while it was proven that it had nothing to do with it.
Being a base platform for development and being the platform that STudios prioritize has great benefits. It is naïve to believe that if XSX were the base development platform and also the priority platform it would have no effect on the results of the comparisons vs PS5.
LOL. what a hyperbole. It's funny because 99.9% of people who say such a thing are then unable to detect whether VRS is being used or not and only speak based on 400% captures of specific elements and areas.
VRS"degradation" is for specific examples with zoom and concrete elements, no one appreciates its use, which is also only implemented in certain situations. Not to mention, on the other hand, you gain some overall sharpness improvement. The performance of both versions is the same in the new area DLC. That is already relevant. Apart from that, I would like to know if the latest patch has improved the performance in XSX in the old zone as the description of the patch indicates.
VRS has as many good examples of great implementation as it does examples of poor implementation. Cataloguing and valuing only bad cases is not valuing fairly.
Negotiator101
Member
Try Doom Eternal, in the console space it produces a significant advantage for Xbox (only consoles that has hardware based VRS).
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
From what we know, Alan Wake 2 doesn't have VRS so I'm a bit surprised the last entire page of this topic is about VRS lol.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
It doesn't have vrs for sure. I would've noticed it. (at least on ps5)
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BootsLoader
Banned
You will see them soon, don't worry, there is plenty of time ahead of us. In the meantime, please enjoy a thread, free of "another one".
Radical_3d
Member
You think the guy who predicted the PSPortal and the new PS5 Slim months beforehand is wrong just in that bullet point?
DanielG165
Member
We already do? Hasn’t that been the case already for whenever a SX version that does slightly worse than the PS5 version, that it needs more time and additional updates? Here, the SX is simply performing better at the moment, and the S is performing well also. The Xbox consoles, particularly the SX, have a great port that’s leveraging their feature set; that should be something people interested in video games tech should be celebrating.
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Bojji
Member
Gears is exception to the rule, no other game is close to having this good implementation of VRS. Plus to have that much performance gain you have to use "performance" setting that IS NOTICEABLE.
You don't need 400% zoom to see deficiencies, you just don't have to be blind and use 4K screen. There are many games using VRS and in most of them performance difference is almost non existent while you can see IQ degradation. So far it's a failure tech.
It has higher resolution overall but actually worse image quality in some places.
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Vergil1992
Member
It isn't true. But hey, it's really hard to "quantify" this. What I will add is that the most GPU-demanding games often tend to have slightly better versions in XSX, like this Alan Wake 2, A Plague Tale: Requiem, Dead Space (Remake), Dying Light 2, The Witcher 3 Ray Tracing mode...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think it's honest to say that "the version of Cyberpunk is better on PS5", if nothing has changed compared to the previous version (looking at DF's analysis it seems not, the minimum resolution is 1008p on PS5), XSX has always had higher resolutions and has also always used VRS.
VRS is not something you can notice when playing, at least if it is implemented correctly. The fact is that Cyberpunk had been using VRS for a long time and no one had noticed until Oliver took a screenshot finding an exact moment where it was in operation.
PS5 has slightly better performance than XSX in the base game, in the most current DLC the performance is identical, XSX has higher resolution and uses VRS. It's more of a tie.
Lol? What about" Ghostwire Tokyo?" It came out a year later and was more unstable than the PS5,that wasn't the case with "The Medium."
scarlet0pimp
Member
Yes I think the rumours wont come to anything, maybe the rumours came from internal testing which i guess is always happening.
Happy to be wrong in this case as I would be in on getting pro consoles, but I just think the higher ups at Sony/MS must be thinking the current base machines haven't been utilised yet so releasing a new model probably also wont be for a good few years maybe, next gen will arrives before pro consoles can be exploited. I think all pro consoles might do is just brute force higher resolutions of current gen games.
With games being in development for so long now, I wonder if generations will cease to be a thing and more powerful hardware will come along, as and when its ready and the software on the devices will make use of extra grunt for higher res or fps as developers decide.
No, it is not the exception, it is more that you are guided by the captures with zoom at 400% with VRS vs. non-VRS and you stay with that impression.
In the mentioned games, you do need comparative screenshots and zoom to identify their implementation. The fact that even VGtech has difficulty ensuring 100% whether a game uses VRS or not tells you everything. As if to come and say that anyone with two eyes can detect it...
The important thing is the whole and the improvement in resolution is vast compared to the degradation of detail in specific objects in darkened areas or outside the player's main focus. In fact that is the description and purpose of VRS technique.
Radical_3d
Member
Enterprise executives give no fucks to which extend a hardware is utilised. They care about sales, market share, momentum and all those sort of stuff that is for what a Pro console is. The leaked plans for MS to wait for 2028 is more of an incentive to green light the project. You know how companies hate competition.
And I ask for nothing more. Even if I get the XSX version now the image is not pleasant. As another user pointed we’re used to cleaner images now. Alan Wake II with sightly better internal resolution would be just perfect. You can even keep the RT features. Just cleaner image. And I’m willing to gambit waiting one year to get that. And a physical release ffs.
Middleware and tools must step up to reduce development times but that’s another discussion.
You should educate yourself better on this topic. You have been proposing example after example of games showing that you are not up to date.
GWTokio received more updates weeks after launching on XSX announcing substantial performance and bug improvements which says a lot about the state in which the port to XSX was released
Ghostwire: Tokyo Spider’s Thread Update Patch 1
Experience improved performance and bug fixes in our latest update.
bethesda.net
The fact is that there has been no subsequent comparison to know to what extent it improved vs PS5 but I can assure you that it has improved.
That said, you are giving the example of a port of a game created based on PS5, done in a hurry and whose sales prospects were zero. You can also use Deathloop as an example and you have the opposite result.
Finally Medium.... It's shocking to see people even using it as an example of something without mentioning the whole thing. Medium wasn't better on PS5, it was rather "different." The XSX version uses RT reflections +AO compared to PS5 which prioritized resolution and reduced the use of RT to reflections to a lesser extent.
I mean, I don't know where Medium is an example of what you're trying to argue.
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Vergil1992
Member
If what he says doesn't seem right to you, what is your theory? that PS5 is actually much more powerful and is capable of having a better RT implementation than XSX, higher resolution and better framerate?
The most similar case would be Deathloop and it works better in XSX. The point isn't just that it's the "favorite" version's fault, it's that the software is everything. GhostWire Tokyo is (or was, we currently don't know) much worse optimized on Xbox. And I say "was" because it was known that there were updates expressly to improve performance, but I have not seen comparisons of how it currently works compared to PS5.
The reasons? Well, there could be many. Maybe it was a quick port for GP with little investment, maybe Tango GameWorks is more efficient with the PS5 API...
But blaming the hardware here would be stupid. There is no way to justify such wide differences in a cross-platform game. PS5 on average runs 5-10fps better, has higher resolution, better shadows (in Xbox have bugs) and better Ray Tracing. This is completely impossible to be due to each one's hardware. It's a poor port, I don't think there's much to debate here.
Thirty7ven
Banned
The difference in performance seems to match difference on compute but you still got the looney toons committee selling secret sauce even though the results clearly show there’s no secret sauce.
It's not really a mystery - it's just that you need to move to a completely different data paradigm for it to meaningfully contribute anything.
The same data paradigm shift is also needed for SSDs to really be brought to bear fully - but that's predictably taking a long time to materialise because middleware engines can't make that dramatic a shift anytime soon, and proprietary engine-devs have been busy doing cross-get titles until this year, and 'gen exclusive' codebases won't shed all that legacy overnight.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
No, this one isn't. No Windows Store version, only Epic Games Store version on PC.
poodaddy
Member
Oh, well the PC version effectively doesn't exist to me then, bummer.
Reizo Ryuu
Gold Member
Negotiator101
Member
Who said anything about secret sauce exactly?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I know lol
but I guess to their greater point, this is a PC version that came in an ideal state, without any PC specific messes that have permeated almost all the major releases these days.
Dead Space on PC is *still* not fixed, for example.
JTCx
Member
looney toon spotted.
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JackMcGunns
Member
If I said PS5 is incapable of doing Ray Tracing and there's one game that has Ray Tracing and well implemented, that's all the proof you need that it can be done. The fact that others are failing to achieve it does NOT mean the console can't handle it, it just means devs need training.
Viking Warrior
Member
RDNA1 and older GPU's can't use Direct X 12 Ultimate,without this they have no ability to use Mesh Shaders.All AMD GPU's from Vega to RDNA3 have the hardware to use Primitive Shaders,this includes the Series X/S,but they have to be able to use D12U in order to use Mesh Shaders.
Deerock71
Member
Viking Warrior
Member
Mesh Shaders in hardware do not exist,they are a API function dependent on drivers and software,Primitive Shaders exist in hardware in all AMD GPU's from Vega to RNDA3,it's only thru DX12U that Primitive Shaders are converted into Mesh Shaders,RDNA1 and older GPU's can't use DX 12U.
winjer
Gold Member
Really, then why doesn't it work on Pascal and RDNA1.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Are you sure?
There's minor HW differences, which can be seen in Vulkan discussions.
There's a whole Twitter thread with lots of comments and insight from developers that shed light on the confusion.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
AW2? It does work on older cards but the performance is shit.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Nah, we're talking about Mesh Shaders.
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
I've got an S. I love the hell out of it. Never cared much for the resolution options or frame rates so long as it's nothing game breaking, I'm good. Also an Alan Wake fan. I rock this one after I'm done with Starfield. Can't wait! The S version seems just fine for me. Good stuff
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