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[Hawk269]

I'm still confused by HDR and what it is supposed to do. I have a 4k HDR tv and I don't get it. Playing The Witness and switching back and forth I can see it is different but I don't see how it is better. Going from SD to HD content was an obvious improvement but non HDR to HDR is just different, not better to me. Same thing with Everybody's Golf. It doesn't help that when a game switches to HDR that the tv changes to HDR mode with different brightness etc settings which makes trying to compare the two modes difficult.

Someone will suggest that perhaps my tv isn't set optimally but such an observation isn't helpful. I don't know....

Hmmm. I am not sure how to answer as I really have not heard of someone not seeing it. I will say that it does vary based on your actual TV. Some HDR sets do not have very much NITS output and if you have a set that does not display a decent NITS level it could have an impact on how it looks and how impactful it is. I know you mentioned setting, but settings also do play a part.

What HDR set do you have?

 

[T-0800]

Hmmm. I am not sure how to answer as I really have not heard of someone not seeing it. I will say that it does vary based on your actual TV. Some HDR sets do not have very much NITS output and if you have a set that does not display a decent NITS level it could have an impact on how it looks and how impactful it is. I know you mentioned setting, but settings also do play a part.

What HDR set do you have?

TV is Panasonic TH-55EX600A

 

[Hawk269]

TV is Panasonic TH-55EX600A

I can't seem to find what the NITS output is on your set. It could be that it does not have a high NITS output for HDR but unless we know what that number is it is hard to tell. But in general HDR is easily noticeable and impactful, but can vary also by what content you are using.

 

[Smokey]

Thanks...I just realized that...felt gutted and my wife came home asking to show her this awesome new racing game that I have been talking about. lol. Oh well.

BTW...Since you also have a OLED LG, what settings do you have in the PS4 Pro Screen menu? I had to change to "Limited" output because in Witcher 3 when you are in the in-game menu to adjust brightness the Witcher Logo that you are suppose to see was invisible regardless of where I put the brightness at. When I engaged/changed it to "limited" it appeared and I was able to adjust brightness appropriately.

I have it set to Auto, but based on info brought to my attention the last few days, I'm going to try setting it to Limited as 98% of what I play on the Pro is HDR enabled anyway.

 

[Hawk269]

I have it set to Auto, but based on info brought to my attention the last few days, I'm going to try setting it to Limited as 98% of what I play on the Pro is HDR enabled anyway.

On Auto for me it was not allowing me to properly calibrate brightness in-game in Witcher and I also tried another game and it was doing the same thing, it would not properly show whatever in-game thing to determine proper setting. Changing it to Limited fixed that for me. I have everything else set to Auto.

 

[Arcoril]

Wish I could enjoy this. I have a TV and receiver that support HDR but Sony's colossally stupid oversight to not allow the PSVR to pass through HDR is killing me. Yes, I could bypass the PSVR box every time I played but it's honestly not worth he hassle for me with the cramped cabinet my system is in.

 

[T-0800]

I can't seem to find what the NITS output is on your set. It could be that it does not have a high NITS output for HDR but unless we know what that number is it is hard to tell. But in general HDR is easily noticeable and impactful, but can vary also by what content you are using.

As I said when playing The Witness and turning HDR off and on I can see a difference but not a 'wow look how much better this looks' kind of thing.

 

[T-0800]

On Auto for me it was not allowing me to properly calibrate brightness in-game in Witcher and I also tried another game and it was doing the same thing, it would not properly show whatever in-game thing to determine proper setting. Changing it to Limited fixed that for me. I have everything else set to Auto.

What setting are you talking about exactly?

 

[Hawk269]

As I said when playing The Witness and turning HDR off and on I can see a difference but not a 'wow look how much better this looks' kind of thing.

The Witness is not a game that has very good HDR implementation. It has it and it does look a little better but to me the impact in that game is not that great. Like HDR movies, game in HDR will vary and it is not a thing that is equal across the board. From the DF thread on GTS it seems like the dev put a lot of work into HDR and from the direct feed HDR footage they have done a great job with it. Forza 7 and Forza Horizon 3 are also very good, but there are games where the HDR implementation is not very good "Elder Scrolls On-Line" for example is not good at all.

 

[Hawk269]

What setting are you talking about exactly?

That conversation was about a non-hdr game and setting the PS4 Pro's output to Limited rather than Auto.

For HDR settings, it varies by game. Some game have a simple slider. However, proper set up of you display using your display's setting is also important. I have not used a newer Panasonic so I can't help with settings, but I am sure you can google HDR settings for your set just to ensure that on the TV side of things that the settings are good.

 

[sueil]

Wish I could enjoy this. I have a TV and receiver that support HDR but Sony's colossally stupid oversight to not allow the PSVR to pass through HDR is killing me. Yes, I could bypass the PSVR box every time I played but it's honestly not worth he hassle for me with the cramped cabinet my system is in.

Hey great news Sony has a solution. Buy a new PSVR.

 

[pixelation]

Nvmnd.

 

[Crayon]

A gif from Apex of VR in GTS

This looks so much better that I expected it to.

 

[pixelation]

It's far more noticeable in Sports and I don't really want to talk much of Forza 7 as I'm waiting to play it more on the One X rather than on my One S, where I can really compare it far more fairly to Sports running on my Pro.

But I will say there is more use of 3D polygons for trackside details like tire walls in Forza, the cockpit in Forza is better animated too, nevermind the weather effects
In GT sports, drive up slowly to the marshals and see big jump in level of detail as you get close, it's like a throwback, to PS era

Car model and HDR wise I agree with you, it's ahead of anything else out there, but at big costs to the detail gfx used elsewhere in the game and features like dynamic weather.

PD used to be the best on the PS and PS2 (GT 3 is a showcase for the system and looked better than most 360 racers) , but they've lost that magic since the PS3 era and games like Project Cars 2 are pushing ahead with features like weather systems and patterns and AI (which is still poor in GT)

Yeahhhh... i'll believe the guy with the actual know-how (that's not you) but thanks for the effort!

 

[PdotMichael]

In GT sports, drive up slowly to the marshals and see big jump in level of detail as you get close, it's like a throwback, to PS era

So only the de facto less detailed track details in Forza are next gen?

 

[RobRSG]

I don't know if it's HDR on S8+ or not, but the lighting effects are a match in my TV (4K HDR) and my S8+.

Food for thought.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Have a look at the "position" count.

https://youtu.be/WelblKQNC20

You're not fooling anybody either by the way.

Spare me the fanboy drivel. I defy you show anywhere I've tried to class Forza as the best racing sim. Both GT and Forza are great racing games, but far from sims, I remember the original Forza on the OG XBox had a funny issue of no matter how steep the incline of the track was a car would never travel backward no matter if forward motion was applied or not or what gear you were in

I said even before the DF foundry vid, that GT Sport features the best use of HDR and also supported the best car models bar none, but it was clear it was done at cost of environment detail (like tire walls ) and high use of LOD.

I would have hopped DF picked up on that, that's all like it pointed out the high use of LOD in Halo V and various other ways it hit the 60 fps target, or like how Forza skips on details like no 60 fps rear view mirrors and various other ways it hits the 60 fps.

Like I said I kind of wish Mad studios had the manpower and budgets of the GT or Forza games they really seem to push the driving game forward

 

[Team Andromeda]

So only the de facto less detailed track details in Forza are next gen?

Do you deny its not there? .One can see LOD being used on Halo V, while not in other FPS running at 60 fps, so one just points it out.

When you crash in a game like Forza you get more crash damage detail represented on the car, you also get debris and tire walls flying everywhere that wasn't there in the Sports Demo and yes it was only a demo maybe the final code fixes it.


When it comes to car models and lighting Sports blows away Forza 7, but then Forza 7 draws more cars on track, doesn't seem to suffer as much from LOD, when you crash it better handled in Forza 7 (and even the best drivers in the world crash as we see in F1 or NASCAR) and it supports a semi-dynamic weather system.

GT Sports demo is old fashioned in parts, even to the needed to go to the options screen to select 7.1. C'Mon PD this is 2017

 

[dark10x]

I would have hopped DF picked up on that, that's all like it pointed out the high use of LOD in Halo V and various other ways it hit the 60 fps target, or like how Forza skips on details like no 60 fps rear view mirrors and various other ways it hits the 60 fps.

Would you stop this already? I already explained why that first video didn't go into detail on that. It was a first look designed as a testing ground for HDR video. I didn't have the time to go into all those details in that video as I spent SO MUCH time getting HDR to work. How many times do I need to say this?

First look implies that there is another video coming with more detail.

you also get debris and tire walls flying everywhere

OK, you have to let me know...why are you so obsessed with tire walls? I don't understand this at all.

If a mod rolls in here, you need a "Tire Walls" tag.

 

[Stealthcobra]

If you have a note 8...wow it looks phenomenal on this screen

 

[Head.spawn]

Would you stop this already? I already explained why that first video didn't go into detail on that. It was a first look designed as a testing ground for HDR video. I didn't have the time to go into all those details in that video as I spent SO MUCH time getting HDR to work. How many times do I need to say this?

First look implies that there is another video coming with more detail.

You need to clone yourself. It's the only way to get anything done these days.

 

[irrotational]

First look implies that there is another video coming with more detail.

Loads of people love your videos, just keep working on them and try to ignore tyre wall obsessed Internet posters.

Thanks for all the good work, and I hope hdr gets easier!

 

[GHG]

Spare me the fanboy drivel. I defy you show anywhere I've tried to class Forza as the best racing sim. Both GT and Forza are great racing games, but far from sims, I remember the original Forza on the OG XBox had a funny issue of no matter how steep the incline of the track was a car would never travel backward no matter if forward motion was applied or not or what gear you were in

I said even before the DF foundry vid, that GT Sport features the best use of HDR and also supported the best car models bar none, but it was clear it was done at cost of environment detail (like tire walls ) and high use of LOD.

I would have hopped DF picked up on that, that's all like it pointed out the high use of LOD in Halo V and various other ways it hit the 60 fps target, or like how Forza skips on details like no 60 fps rear view mirrors and various other ways it hits the 60 fps.

Like I said I kind of wish Mad studios had the manpower and budgets of the GT or Forza games they really seem to push the driving game forward

Fanboy drivel for pointing out the fact that you are incorrect?

That's an interesting one.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Please don't class me as Forza fan, its far from the best racer or the best looking too. But Forza 7 is doing some stuff GT Sport isn't. It got 4 more cars on screen, full damage models and also some environmental interactive damage when the car crashes and its got a dynamic weather system too.

When it comes to a racing sim I don't many equaled much less bettered Richard Burns Rally

Forza 7 is a worse game than F6 according to Metacritic, that's what is important, not how many cars are on its tracks.

 

[Izuna]

It certainly does on mine. Even tho the implentation is really shit since its stuttery as hell above 1080p

I've even tested this on in store models sheet updating the app, it really doesn't.

It's actually frustrating

Do me a favor, turn off Video Enchancer and take a screen shot while the video is playing and show me. Or go into multi view and check if the video colours change.

Or actually, you can even keep Video Enchancer on and see that the screenshots will still show a correct Rec. 709 image.

People either have Adaptive Display mode on or Video Enchancer (which do basically the same thing on YouTube) and are mistaking it for real HDR.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Forza 7 is a worse game than F6 according to Metacritic, that's what is important, not how many cars are on its tracks.

I don't go by reviews thanks. And for the last time I not even saying Forza 7 is a better game. So can we please stop that load of nonsense. I'm not the biggest fan for either Forza or FT when it comes to racing sims, but there you go.

This is just about the GFX for the main

 

[Team Andromeda]

Would you stop this already? I already explained why that first video didn't go into detail on that.

Trouble setting up HDR? C'Mon that pretty lame, this game isn't Recore where the default HDR mode was pretty awful and if in the video the talk was all about and only about HDR then fine, but it went into detail about the game engine too.

So I would just assume that you would have noticed the game issues like LOD since you are on top of such Gfx issues or shortcoming in most other games, even if its just a 1st look .. And as for the tries wall, it's just a detail that needs and means extra polygons extra physics and processing being used , that racing games like Forza or Codemasters F1 games model, same for car damage being modeled but GT Sports engine seems not to support and rather used its resources on making the car models look the best.

You know like one can compare FPS and their engines, Games like Doom run at 60fps while Destiny doesn't, but then Desinty is handling a bigger scale

 

[Izuna]

Never trust posters who use multiple periods for no reason.

 

[GHG]

Is this thread about tire walls or HDR?

I'm not sure anymore.

 

[Izuna]

I may get to see this on a KS8000 tonight.

 

[Aceofspades]

Is this thread about tire walls or HDR?

I'm not sure anymore.

funny thing is tire walls in F7 is low poly hexagonal objects. Im staggered at why he used this specific example as a strength of F7 graphics.

 

[dark10x]

Trouble setting up HDR? C'Mon that pretty lame, this game isn't Recore where the default HDR mode was pretty awful and if in the video the talk was all about and only about HDR then fine, but it went into detail about the game engine too.

So I would just assume that you would have noticed the game issues like LOD since you are on top of such Gfx issues or shortcoming in most other games, even if its just a 1st look .. And as for the tries wall, it's just a detail that needs and means extra polygons extra physics and processing being used , that racing games like Forza or Codemasters F1 games model, same for car damage being modeled but GT Sports engine seems not to support and rather used its resources on making the car models look the best.

You know like one can compare FPS and their engines, Games like Doom run at 60fps while Destiny doesn't, but then Desinty is handling a bigger scale

Oh, you think capturing and producing a video in HDR is as simple as turning it on? You don’t know what you’re talking about. The production process was difficult and it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’re being a jerk for no reason without understanding the process. The HDR workflow is not an easy thing.

 

[Izuna]

Oh, you think capturing and producing a video in HDR is as simple as turning it on? You don’t know what you’re talking about. The production process was difficult and it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’re being a jerk for no reason without understanding the process. The HDR workflow is not an easy thing.

Can I ask, was it simple or a pain to get old GT footage in this video?

 

[dark10x]

Can I ask, was it simple or a pain to get old GT footage in this video?

It was difficult. I had to define a custom lookup table to translate values from SDR into HDR, basically.

 

[Team Andromeda]

funny thing is tire walls in F7 is low poly hexagonal objects. Im staggered at why he used this specific example as a strength of F7 graphics.

Can you stop the fanboy drivel. I not saying Forza 7 got better Gfx, I said this back when 1st played the Sports demo posted on 10-09-2017 @04:02 PM.

. Car models without equal at the mo, but the lack of polygons on the environment and also the pretty static cockpit views, lack of full damage system are pretty last gen, much like the gameplay

Best use of HDR yet though!

That even before the DF video of the best HDR game too btw



All I'm saying is that Forza is having to handle stuff that the GT Sports engine doesn't worry about .. more cars on screen, weather system, damage system and all crash barriers that react to players input All that sort of stuff that's up extra clock cycles, read that not mean the game looks better, but just the engine is having to worry about and handle extra stuff.

Truth be told I'm more impressed with Project Cars II at the mo, but it losses out to both for trackside detail or a locked 60 fps Like with game systems, games have plus and minus points and offer something that its rival doesn't

 

[Izuna]

It was difficult. I had to define a custom lookup table to translate values from SDR into HDR, basically.

I hope that we will get consumer programs capable of automating this stuff in the future.

 

[JP]

 

[GHG]

If truth be told I'm dissapointed at the lack of reaction from the tires having water thrown on them, the background is lacking in polygons too, very flat. And that smoke is lacking in particles, very last gen.

Family guy did it better, but I'm not saying I'm a fan of family guy. They just did it better. Don't ask me for evidence either, because I don't have any.

 

[Maintenance]

 

 

[Team Andromeda]

It was difficult. I had to define a custom lookup table to translate values from SDR into HDR, basically.

Its really not a dig, as I enjoy DF and all its features, Rich is like a GOD to me. I grew up in the UK with Mean Machines and when Rich or Jazza said you need to buy this game, you just did, that's even before Rich work on Sega Saturn Mag

I even have the same LG TV as Rich lol. So even with next to no messing around with the HDR settings, it was clear as day Sports made the best use of HDR going.
It wasn't like with Recore, where you 1st play it in HDR it looks hideous and plain wrong, and one needs to go the options screen and HDR brightness settings ASAP.

Like with Resident Evil 7 even without messing with the options too much, it was clear Sports would be a showcase for HDR

 

[GHG]

All of the NHS' problems are starting to make sense now.

Good grief.

 

[Klocker]

I wonder what GTS is doing that makes its HDR stand out over other games?

I always thought it was a color space where it was either turned on or it wasn't.

 

[Synth]

I may get to see this on a KS8000 tonight.

It's not actually playable anymore though. So you can only view the demo rolling.

 

[Mr Moose]

It's not actually playable anymore though. So you can only view the demo rolling.

I think some people have early copies (unless VR was available during the demo?).

 

[Putty]

I wonder what GTS is doing that makes its HDR stand out over other games?

I always thought it was a color space where it was either turned on or it wasn't.

Resources saved by not having fully animated/physics based tyre walls are used to beef up the HDR implementation...

 

[Synth]

I think some people have early copies (unless VR was available during the demo?).

He's coming to my place to view it on my TV.

 

[Izuna]

It's not actually playable anymore though. So you can only view the demo rolling.

Pfft, wasn't going to embarass myself again anyway.

 

[dark10x]

I even have the same LG TV as Rich lol. So even with next to no messing around with the HDR settings, it was clear as day Sports made the best use of HDR going.
It wasn't like with Recore, where you 1st play it in HDR it looks hideous and plain wrong, and one needs to go the options screen and HDR brightness settings ASAP.

Here's an idea of why it was difficult to produce.

I hope that we will get consumer programs capable of automating this stuff in the future.

Now that I've figured all of it out, it shouldn't be too difficult going forward but the process this time was not easy.

Some of the hoops I had to jump through.

Step 1 was getting the capture device to play nicely with my setup. After loads of issues, I finally determined that it will ONLY accept HDR using YUV422 at 4K. Anything else does not work. It also only works with very specific HDMI cables which required a lot of trial and error to test. I had to factor in the AVR as well which prefers YUV420 but only for Zone 1 - Zone 2 works fine with 422 which I could send to the capture device.

Then, while doing all this swapping and testing, I bumped the power cable on my Pro which corrupted the hard drive to the point where I had to re-initialize the entire system losing everything on it (thankfully I had cloud saves). This, of course, took a while as I had to re-download active games.

What the corruption basically did was make it so that I could no longer install games. Whether by disc or download, it would just say "An error has occurred". Very few people have searched for thee specific error code associated with it but the ones I did find basically said, yeah, you have to re-initialize.

So that ate up day 1. I managed to get some capture done in the end but the Pro being down made it so that I had to wait until day 2 to continue gathering footage.

So on day 2, I captured as much as I could (in between server downtime) and jumped over to Premiere. This is where it gets challenging. When dealing with HDR, everything in the time line must be in HDR or properly mapped to the correct color space - and keep in mind this is absolutely not as simple as pressing a button. It's not an automatic thing. Every little graphics, text or object needs to be mapped correctly and it's not obvious how to do it. Since you cannot actually preview this live (it just shows a washed out incorrect version) the only way to test the various settings was to export a clip then encode it (which eats up time). Take that clip, try to play on the OLED TV and see what happens.

All of that trial and error took a long time.

By this point, I was taking more time than was allotted for the video, so I scrambled to make something as interesting as I could in a short time.

Once it was complete, then, there's the YouTube problem - it took YT more than 40 hours to process this video. It left me wondering if it would work at all since it seemed to be stuck at 720p the entire time. During that, I experimented with other codecs and settings to try and figure out what was wrong. Turns out, it just needed a very long time.

In the end, it was a pain, but now I can do HDR videos and know all the pitfalls.

For Forza 7 vs GTS, though, I think I'm going to stick with SDR as, even knowing the HDR workflow, it's still way faster and easier to do in SDR.

 

[Mr Moose]

He's coming to my place to view it on my TV.

Oh lol

 

[Izuna]

Noo do it I HDR

I demand as a Patreon sub