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[Redneckerz]

Article: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-consoles-shouldnt-focus-on-true-4k-rendering

Video:



Excerpts:

''And that's a problem bearing in mind how vast a leap 4K actually is - a jump entirely at odds with increases in resolution seen in almost every prior console generation. Indeed, boosts to pixel count have actually been reducing gen-on-gen as a general trend for over a decade now. PS2 to PS3 saw the jump to high definition, but this still represented a circa 3x boost to the amount of pixels the GPU needed to drive the display. And moving forward to the present day, PS4's 1080p standard represented a 2.25x increase over the PS3's 720p. Were the same increase applied in the next transition, we'd be targeting a 2880x1620 resolution - a mere 56 per cent of the area demanded by our 4K flat panels.

With all of this in mind, looking at Sony's latest 'smart upscaling' techniques gives us a valuable insight into the ways that developers of next-gen games can still deliver a proper generational leap without expending too much in the way of GPU power on pixel-pushing. In taking a look at the 4K outputs offered by the likes of Death Stranding, Spider-Man, Ghost of Tsushima and The Last of Us Part 2, it's clear that the foundations are there to ensure that next-gen can actually mean next-gen in terms of that boost to visual quality we really want to see.''

More at the link.

Personal thoughts:
I think this video details a rather lesser mentioned aspect in terms of the new generation of consoles coming up - The usage of these upscaling techniques as a way to either (finally!) introduce 60 fps, or increased fidelity (at less than native 4k, that is, but upscaled). Whereas CPU performance will almost certainly be a huge boost, visuals might be more similar to this generation, unless titles forego with the aforementioned upscaling techniques. I for one would love to see more strides made in terms of AI and Animation - two things that absolutely could use a big boost going into the next generation, especially the former. Should such a thing be done by a neural network processor or an AI accelerator like you see on phones? I am not too sure, given that these new types of accelerators introduce other problems, mostly morally. But that remains to be seen.

 

[rokkerkory]

If next-gen in 2020 cannot hit true 4k then meh, no thanks. Will wait for the Pro or X versions.

 

[Spukc]

Tbh i rather see them push better gfx.
Vray is a thing. That should push it more.

4k is greath but HDR is the bees knees on current consoles.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Having the option to choose frame rate or visuals is nice. But of course there will be a push for real 4k next gen. MS is thirsty for that horsepower advantage again and graphics have always been the goalpost.

 

[AgentP]

Resolution is a small part of gaming and even image quality. Developers should use the resources for they think is the best outcome. I'd take better processing techniques, better AI, better lighting and 60fps before worrying about how many pixels are on the screen. The bottom line, even if we all had 4k TV, we sit significantly far away that we cannot resolve the pixels. In the end it is about sampling theory and more pixels means more samples to eliminate aliasing. If you can eliminate aliasing (this gen has done a great job at that even at 1080P) in cheaper ways and then use the GPU for something better then do so.

 

[Cosmogony]

Having the option to choose frame rate or visuals is nice. But of course there will be a push for real 4k next gen. MS is thirsty for that horsepower advantage again and graphics have always been the goalpost.

Do you really think true 4K, as opposed to, say, 4K via checkerboard rendering, will be a selling point? Casual gamers will likely not appreciate the subtle diferences between the two and hardcore fans will branch out in how they wish to have all that additional power applied. Some will definitely go for higher FPS or graphical fidelity. So real 4K just does not strike me as a good marketing proposition.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Yes, they should. The difference is night and day. This is like the shift between SD and HD. When you start seeing games in 4k you don't really notice a difference, until you switch back to 1080p and immediately notices how everything looks blurry and pixelated.

Some Sony exclusives (like Horizon and God of War) can fake it well enough to make it better than HD, but native 4k should always be the goal.

I remember when I was playing Forza 7 on the Xbox One X, and then I had to send it for repair, so I played for a bit on the S. Man, 1080p was an horrific sight. Gigantic pixels everywhere.

I hope both PS5 and Xbox 2 will provide enough power for native 4k to be the norm.

 

[LittleBusters]

The way I see next-gen console in Nov 2020(my suspected release date for both Sony & MS):

Both Sony & MS will have a new next-gen console spec around: 12 Zen-cores & 10 TFLOP GPU, 16GB GDDR6 RAM, UHD BD, Dolby Atmos, Dolby Vision, Dolby 5.1, DTS:X
Both will take the existing top of the line and make them into the 'affordable' option for the masses.

So on Nov 2020:

XBox One X(2017) becomes XBox One S(2020)
PS4 Pro(2016) becomes PS4 Slim(2020)

Both $299.

XBox One X, PS4 Pro with 'next-gen' specs and Sony also release PSVR 2.

XBox One X $499
PS4 Pro $399

 

[vpance]

Do you really think true 4K, as opposed to, say, 4K via checkerboard rendering, will be a selling point? Casual gamers will likely not appreciate the subtle diferences between the two and hardcore fans will branch out in how they wish to have all that additional power applied. Some will definitely go for higher FPS or graphical fidelity. So real 4K just does not strike me as a good marketing proposition.

It wont be, and it's related to the point that the video makes. If you spend that more of the GPUs power on rendering pixels, the less budget you have for other more noticeable and impressive rendering techs. Most people denying that will stick to gaming on PC anyways.

 

[LittleBusters]

The reason why console gaming will remain relevant is the very high cost of building a PC with a powerful enough CPU/GPU to play high res/frame rate games. That's why Playstation & XBox will remain very relevant for 80% of the video game market.

 

[onQ123]

It should be there but I think the focus should be other places like lighting

 

[BlueAlpaca]

If next-gen consoles can do even 1440p upscaled to 4K, then there's no excuse for not including a 1080p/60fps option.

I'm not expecting much better graphics from next-gen, but if 60fps is not an option I won't be buying any of the new consoles for a long time. Maybe just skip them and move to PC.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It should be there but I think the focus should be other places like lighting

How things are lit as well as physics/animation I feel will make a bigger impact visually, than just boosting resolution/textures.

 

[Endless Fluff]

No. They should focus on improving draw/render distance, lod, shadow quality, better AF (AA is in a good spot), better physics (especially hair, fur, cloth simulations) and so on.
Those 2D bitmap trees without shadows and low detail 50-100 meters in the distance won't get better with higher resolutions. Even exclusives like Horizon Zero Dawn suffer from that.

This would require lots of CPU power, though.

 

[bitbydeath]

I don’t have a 4K tv yet but 4K is the current standard so they should support it.

VR will see the greater benefits next gen.

 

[Leonidas]

At first I thought they should go after native 4K since that's what MS has done with first party X games, but after seeing the comment from the AMD developer I've changed my stance.

Next-gen is doomed to GPU bottlenecks and all sorts of up-scaling and rendering techniques. The only hope for a next-gen leap in graphics are the mid-next-gen refresh.

 

[Koala Driving a Ferrari]

At first I thought they should go after native 4K since that's what MS has done with first party X games, but after seeing the comment from the AMD developer I've changed my stance.

Next-gen is doomed to GPU bottlenecks and all sorts of up-scaling and rendering techniques. The only hope for a next-gen leap in graphics are the mid-next-gen refresh.

I personally won't be upgrading to a PS5 or Xbox Two unless they can achieve 60fps @ 4k native for most next gen titles. If Sony (or MS) choose to rush out a "next gen" console for 2019 (or early 2020) that has to use upscaling trickery to render at the current resolution standard then I have zero interest in their console. Give me the real deal or go home. I'm getting the distinct impression that Sony is going to cheap-out next gen. The PS4 Pro was a warning sign of the direction that they are heading in technically.

 

[ruvikx]

No. They should focus on improving draw/render distance, lod, shadow quality, better AF (AA is in a good spot), better physics (especially hair, fur, cloth simulations) and so on.
Those 2D bitmap trees without shadows and low detail 50-100 meters in the distance won't get better with higher resolutions. Even exclusives like Horizon Zero Dawn suffer from that.

This would require lots of CPU power, though.

Yep. I've been saying this for years, i.e. we need merely look at HD remasters to see 'why' resolution doesn't fix everything, at all. In fact increasing resolution on low quality assets is akin to shining a light in places we shouldn't see. Suddenly the stuff which seemed fine at 1080p looks fucking ugly at 4K.

I get why devs, publishers, console manufacturers & TV companies want the push to 4k though: it drives TV sales (after the HD revolution, people needed to be 'encouraged' into buying new TV's again, i.e. 4k is the ticket) & it makes the entire 'better graphics' shtick seem piss-easy, i.e. just turn up the resolution & voilà, faux next gen. As far as I'm concerned real next gen is going to be severely held back if most of the power in the box goes towards 4k & not the aforementioned render distance, lod, shadow quality, lighting, physics, AI, AF etc.

I get that 4 technically looks 'better', but it's not a miracle solution to better visuals in games.

 

[Aaron Olive]

What everyone needs to realize is this has happened every single console generation, some 8th gen games are native 1080p some are not, some 7th gen games were native 720P some were not. PS5 and the next Xbox console will be exactly the same, some games will be native 4K some will not. The 9th gen selling point will be 4K games with improved visual fidelity of course but checkerboard rendering will not be taking a back seat either, some developers will use this option to make their games graphically shine.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I personally won't be upgrading to a PS5 or Xbox Two unless they can achieve 60fps @ 4k native for most next gen titles. If Sony (or MS) choose to rush out a "next gen" console for 2019 (or early 2020) that has to use upscaling trickery to render at the current resolution standard then I have zero interest in their console. Give me the real deal or go home. I'm getting the distinct impression that Sony is going to cheap-out next gen. The PS4 Pro was a warning sign of the direction that they are heading in technically.

You should be realistic.
If 8tf is the minimum for 4k with current gen looks, then 10-12tf is not enough for 4k with next gen looks. Also there is no point in delaying the console past 2020, there won't be significant tech advances to make a big difference in 2021 or 2022.
For 400$ late 2020 you can't have much more than 12tf.
If native 4k@60 is such a big deal for you, you should be gaming on PC next gen, not on a console.
I expect CB to be the norm for big budget games next gen, maybe Sony will add customizations to the APU to improve the quality of CB and even lower its performance cost.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Yes. Just do native 4K with a dynamic scaler to help with stability.

But what I want to see most is game innovation next gen, not graphics. This gen has been very stagnant for the most part with endless sequels of last gen games, only with better graphics.

 

[TheMikado]

I personally won't be upgrading to a PS5 or Xbox Two unless they can achieve 60fps @ 4k native for most next gen titles. If Sony (or MS) choose to rush out a "next gen" console for 2019 (or early 2020) that has to use upscaling trickery to render at the current resolution standard then I have zero interest in their console. Give me the real deal or go home. I'm getting the distinct impression that Sony is going to cheap-out next gen. The PS4 Pro was a warning sign of the direction that they are heading in technically.

If that’s what you want then you need to wait for about 7-10 years.

 

[bitbydeath]

I personally won't be upgrading to a PS5 or Xbox Two unless they can achieve 60fps @ 4k native for most next gen titles. If Sony (or MS) choose to rush out a "next gen" console for 2019 (or early 2020) that has to use upscaling trickery to render at the current resolution standard then I have zero interest in their console. Give me the real deal or go home. I'm getting the distinct impression that Sony is going to cheap-out next gen. The PS4 Pro was a warning sign of the direction that they are heading in technically.

You’ll never see 60fps as standard unless you’re planning on going only VR

 

[Trogdor1123]

Id hope for 60fps first, before resolution. 4k looks great but not a generational change from 1080p. 60 fps to 30 fps is a staggering difference

 

[aevanhoe]

I personally won't be upgrading to a PS5 or Xbox Two unless they can achieve 60fps @ 4k native for most next gen titles. If Sony (or MS) choose to rush out a "next gen" console for 2019 (or early 2020) that has to use upscaling trickery to render at the current resolution standard then I have zero interest in their console. Give me the real deal or go home. I'm getting the distinct impression that Sony is going to cheap-out next gen. The PS4 Pro was a warning sign of the direction that they are heading in technically.

“Real deal” means they would push something that is almost imperceivable instead of going for better rendering techniques and higher framerates.

So I really, really hope they use “upscaling trickery”, because that would mean the graphics are improved. Heck, you could do native 4k at 60fps on current gen if you wanted, it comes down to rendering quality.

 

[aevanhoe]

Yes. Just do native 4K with a dynamic scaler to help with stability.

But what I want to see most is game innovation next gen, not graphics. This gen has been very stagnant for the most part with endless sequels of last gen games, only with better graphics.

I agree about innovation vs graphics. However, I don’t see this gen as a sequel generation.

This gen brought new IPs like Horizon, reinvented old IPs like God of War, brought some amazing open-world games like BotW and Witcher III and introduced an online revolution. And not to mention some really innovative games like the upcoming Dreams.

I think this is the best generation yet.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

I doubt it could be done for $399 next gen.

 

[Cosmogony]

Yes. Just do native 4K with a dynamic scaler to help with stability.

But what I want to see most is game innovation next gen, not graphics. This gen has been very stagnant for the most part with endless sequels of last gen games, only with better graphics.

I understand craving better gameplay. What I don't quite get is this never-ending disconnect whereby a significant segment of gamers claim on gaming forums that, somehow, improved graphical fidelity impedes innovation on the gameplay front. AAA devs don't seem to putting much stock in that notion.

E3 after E3, the AAA titles that sweep accolades are those with the fancier graphics, which also seem to be those climbing the charts.

I know the thesis usually is that devs can hide behind fancy graphics, without having to go to the trouble of improving or reinventing gameplay. I don't buy that. It's not just that programmers who works on graphics don't usually double as gameplay designers, so you wouldn't be able to move those coders back to the gameplay design department. it's that graphics, by their very nature, will necessarily improve year after year, by virtue of software, middleware and hardware updates. It's just a given. The path is crystal clear: pushing more polygons, increasing framerate, having better LoDs, higher res textures, etc.

Those metrics don't exist when it comes to gameplay. The path to improvement is uncertain and thus much more difficult.

I have no guilty conscience over wanting better graphics. I will always want better graphics. Unapologetically. Graphics are not the Evil Queen.

 

[ipukespiders]

From the video, what game is this?

 

[magnumpy]

it should be up to the developer.

 

[molasar]

From the video, what game is this?

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

 

[ipukespiders]

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Oh shit, that's the Quiet character. LOL. On my list of games to get to one day.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

It’s definitely up to the developer’s choice, but I hope that we see a larger frequency of 60fps games on consoles. Even better if devs offer a ‘graphics’ mode (4K 30fps) and a ‘performance’ mode (1080p to 1440p 60fps).

 

[BLAUcopter]

FPS > 4K.

I think the current checkerboard / scaling solutions offer fantastic visual quality. Use some of those free resources to boost FPS / graphical complexity.