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Digital Foundry: Project Cars Face-Off

Three

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Oct 26, 2014
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I suppose it's just people used to the trails left by 30fps and image persistence who don't know games shouldn't look like this in motion...
What does that mean? There is no trail left by 30fps. Do you mean the full field blending in 24fps television shows/movies?
 

virtualS

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Jun 6, 2014
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All the evidence I need is in the carefully qualified statement he made about "not receiving a cent" which leaves the door open for millions in free marketing and engineering support, and him going on and on about 20 keys that we can reasonably assume were generated at the time of the game's actual release (last week). Perhaps you take pleasure in being snowed under by careful PR statements, but nVidia's entire TWIMTBP program is built on keeping final code out of AMD's hands until the last minute so everyone keeps wondering why AMD's drivers are "so bad".
Spot on. It doesn't take a genius to see what's going on here. All you have to do is take a step back and consider the history of both AMD and nvidia.

Does the game use Gameworks? If so, Lord knows how SMS optimised on console with all of its closed box bullshit. I'm guessing it doesn't.
 

bombshell

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Oct 23, 2013
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Higher res for most people isn't all that noticeable, the frame drops are on both, just less on PS4, they actually mention some shadows being better on Xbox don't they? Tearing? Fair enough.

Having said that, you played a game with constant ghosting? It's easily for me, the worst thing on the list of issues. Halo Reach was really fucking annoying with it.
"However, as spotted in the hands-on build, Xbox One produces aliased shadows while in cockpit view that aren't noticed on PS4."

Aliased = negative.
Anti-aliased = positive.

Shadows are worse on XB1.



Same with anti-aliasing in general on XB1, thanks to the extra temporal AA pass on the PS4 version, which then as a side-effect unfortunately produces ghosting.

 

KHlover

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Jun 26, 2013
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"However, as spotted in the hands-on build, Xbox One produces aliased shadows while in cockpit view that aren't noticed on PS4."

Aliased = negative.
Anti-aliased = positive.

Shadows are worse on XB1.



Same with anti-aliasing in general on XB1, thanks to the extra temporal AA pass on the PS4 version, which then as a side-effect unfortunately produces ghosting.

Great pic of the shadows. I browse GAF on mobile right now, which usually hides most jaggies until I zoom in. Those Xbox One shadows still look notably bad.
 

Shpeshal Ed

aka Collingwood
Mar 16, 2007
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"However, as spotted in the hands-on build, Xbox One produces aliased shadows while in cockpit view that aren't noticed on PS4."

Aliased = negative.
Anti-aliased = positive.

Shadows are worse on XB1.



Same with anti-aliasing in general on XB1, thanks to the extra temporal AA pass on the PS4 version, which then as a side-effect unfortunately produces ghosting.

Completely misread how they worded that. My bad.

Not that I'm a racing sim guy, but ghosting is a deal breaker for me.
 

Always-honest

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Jan 11, 2008
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"However, as spotted in the hands-on build, Xbox One produces aliased shadows while in cockpit view that aren't noticed on PS4."

Aliased = negative.
Anti-aliased = positive.

Shadows are worse on XB1.



Same with anti-aliasing in general on XB1, thanks to the extra temporal AA pass on the PS4 version, which then as a side-effect unfortunately produces ghosting.

Wow.. that aliassing is horrible..
 

DryvBy

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Big issue is this:


and this:


and this:


and this:



Some people suggested they can't see it or that you don't see it in motion.

Ummm....... Insert J-Lo 'yeah ok' gif here. It's easily visible during play, looks like some kind of psychadelic video on corners, all we need is for the colours to start cycling through the spectum and some Magic Bus.
Wow. Just wow. Can you turn the AA off? This will ruin my experience.
 

Summer Haze

Banned
Jun 10, 2014
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Devs say they'll consider the option if there's enough demand.
Ugh. I really hope more people complain about this. They should have just implemented the same motion blur as the X1 version. I don't care if the IQ suffers, I'd much rather not have ghosting.

Slightly Mad, pls.
 

Stacey

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Feb 17, 2015
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The ghosting is very apparent even in motion. The entire environment is doubled as you drive by, SMS please give us an on/off toggle.
 

Maloney

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Jun 14, 2007
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Big issue is this:







I'm not sure if mine is the same problem (I struggle with the jargon lol) but I see this effect when watching back a replay, all the cars apart from mine are juddering. When I pause the replay it looks fine.

The first replay I watched back I even thought it might be the TV doing the ghosting and I re-checked all of the settings on the TV menu!

Really disappointing (I dunno if it's just me but I like to watch back my races) it's quite jarring to see.

I hope there is a fix for it soon.
 

MilkyJoe

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Jan 29, 2014
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Big issue is this:







I'm not sure if mine is the same problem (I struggle with the jargon lol) but I see this effect when watching back a replay, all the cars apart from mine are juddering. When I pause the replay it looks fine.

The first replay I watched back I even thought it might be the TV doing the ghosting and I re-checked all of the settings on the TV menu!

Really disappointing (I dunno if it's just me but I like to watch back my races) it's quite jarring to see.

I hope there is a fix for it soon.
That's really bad. I played this on PS4 on Saturday and I thought it doesnt look as great as I thought it would, then I bought it for Xbox (I don't have a PS4) booted it up and thought it was much better. until now I have not been able to put my finger on it, I was assuming the slightly lower res made it look less sharp and somehow smoother.

Been checking out some side by side Xbox vs PS4 vids and it is as plain as the nose on your face.

I don't know about you guys but this is head and shoulders a problem over more frame drops, more aliasing and a lower resolution.
 

Always-honest

Banned
Jan 11, 2008
41,681
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Big issue is this:







I'm not sure if mine is the same problem (I struggle with the jargon lol) but I see this effect when watching back a replay, all the cars apart from mine are juddering. When I pause the replay it looks fine.

The first replay I watched back I even thought it might be the TV doing the ghosting and I re-checked all of the settings on the TV menu!

Really disappointing (I dunno if it's just me but I like to watch back my races) it's quite jarring to see.

I hope there is a fix for it soon.
Wowww... this is pretty nasty too... Is this pachable?
 

hesido

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May 23, 2013
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Big issue is this:







I'm not sure if mine is the same problem (I struggle with the jargon lol) but I see this effect when watching back a replay, all the cars apart from mine are juddering. When I pause the replay it looks fine.

The first replay I watched back I even thought it might be the TV doing the ghosting and I re-checked all of the settings on the TV menu!

Really disappointing (I dunno if it's just me but I like to watch back my races) it's quite jarring to see.

I hope there is a fix for it soon.
The effect is pronounced in replays because from an external camera shooting from the side, you have the focused object in center and everything else moves at a great speed in the "screen space", but it's always there even during normal play.

As for the deal breaker issue, the end result is never a clean image, and since the temporal AA is blending without any threshold of movement, the only place it shows anti-aliasing improvement is for stationary objects, on the starting grid, and for the car in behind view when you are on a straight, not turning.

I still have high hopes that they can change their stance on this as a form of IQ enhancement. They could still have the benefits of this type of AA if they went back to the normal motion blur settings coupled with a motion velocity threshold that supresses the blend above a certain movement threshold. If that threshold checking is above their GPU budget, remove it completely pretty please!
 

leng jai

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Jan 20, 2009
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That ghosting issue looks ridiculously bad. I can't even comprehend how SMS thought that would be an acceptable compromise for the PS4 version. Reminds of that terrible motion blur that Halo Reach had.
 

anddo0

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Jan 13, 2007
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The AMD performance, and the PS4 ghosting issues are very off putting. I guess I'm on the outside looking in until one of the two is addressed.
 

c0de

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I can tell you that Xbox One will gain at least 4-7% performance in a patch shortly and address some of the controller issues. Lots more discussion over at forum.projectcarsgame.com.
Well, let's see how the analyze-centric media on the internet is going to make new tests based on this.
 

thelastword

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That's really bad. I played this on PS4 on Saturday and I thought it doesnt look as great as I thought it would, then I bought it for Xbox (I don't have a PS4) booted it up and thought it was much better. until now I have not been able to put my finger on it, I was assuming the slightly lower res made it look less sharp and somehow smoother.

Been checking out some side by side Xbox vs PS4 vids and it is as plain as the nose on your face.

I don't know about you guys but this is head and shoulders a problem over more frame drops, more aliasing and a lower resolution.
This post sounds very suspicious especially with the evidence at play; where there are so many contrasting pics on the last few pages that says otherwise. It's like saying Steve Buscemi is prettier than Rihanna, just that you can't put your finger on it.......

Lets be fair here, IQ on the xbox version is botched, we're talking 900p with worse AA versus 1080p with superior AA even, that's already a big advantage in the looks department. Next on, we can look at shadows, which show a significant advantage in quality on the PS4, this can't be argued as the evidence is littered all over the thread and is yet another area where you can detract points from the xbox version based on IQ. Then of course there's the framerate which is usually ahead on PS4 in the double digits, not-withstanding the controller issues with the xbone version, based on all that, your conclusion on the matter just seems out there.

The two areas which people are highlighting as big issues on the PS4 version (Ghosting & AF) are all less significant than what's mentioned above in terms of IQ and performance. In the case of the ghosting, it's more apparent in replays from what I've seen, but the IQ the temporal pass gives outweighs this slight side effect by a huge margin. If SMS can get rid of all ghosting in a patch that will be fine, but it's way overblown by the few people who care as there's no way most people would prefer a shimmering mess over slight ghosting which is hardly discernible in motion (that is whilst playing) and which is mostly highlighted in stills and replays.

As for AF, there's no concrete evidence to show that there's less on the PS4, I have not seen where exactly the xbone has more, the extra blur I see is due to the temporal pass. I'd also like to believe the developer where they say that AF is equal on both, and I really don't see why they'd lie about this especially after release. They corrected DF on many things in the prior analysis and have been forthcoming in sharing insight on their methods in this thread and others, it makes no sense to lie about your methods when it's now under the scrutiny of all. There's evidence to show that AA, RES, SHADOWS and FRAMERATE are all better on the PS4, but I have not seen the evidence on AF.


Since we're talking IQ, tearing is also worse on the XBONE. Fair enough analysis by DF, but I'm thinking they might be missing a few details, so I'm looking forward to see how NX dissects it and what he finds.
 

MilkyJoe

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Just a quick nod to Digital Foundry from the SMS Render Team for this article and their linking of the various posts that we did over the last few weeks. It is a very fair and accurate Face Off between the platforms and a great piece of technical Journalism as a result - we are working hard to address issues raised on the initial release. Stay tuned ... I can tell you that Xbox One will gain at least 4-7% performance in a patch shortly and address some of the controller issues. Lots more discussion over at forum.projectcarsgame.com.
I am seeing a lot of 1 star reviews from average joe, on amazon, saying the game is unplayable as the steering doesn't work, should the controller default have not been set to game pad rather than wheel?

This post sounds very suspicious especially with the evidence at play; where there are so many contrasting pics on the last few pages that says otherwise. It's like saying Steve Buscemi is prettier than Rihanna, just that you can't put your finger on it.......

Lets be fair here, IQ on the xbox version is botched, we're talking 900p with worse AA versus 1080p with superior AA even, that's already a big advantage in the looks department. Next on, we can look at shadows, which show a significant advantage in quality on the PS4, this can't be argued as the evidence is littered all over the thread and is yet another area where you can detract points from the xbox version based on IQ. Then of course there's the framerate which is usually ahead on PS4 in the double digits, not-withstanding the controller issues with the xbone version, based on all that, your conclusion on the matter just seems out there.

The two areas which people are highlighting as big issues on the PS4 version (Ghosting & AF) are all less significant than what's mentioned above in terms of IQ and performance. In the case of the ghosting, it's more apparent in replays from what I've seen, but the IQ the temporal pass gives outweighs this slight side effect by a huge margin. If SMS can get rid of all ghosting in a patch that will be fine, but it's way overblown by the few people who care as there's no way most people would prefer a shimmering mess over slight ghosting which is hardly discernible in motion (that is whilst playing) and which is mostly highlighted in stills and replays.

As for AF, there's no concrete evidence to show that there's less on the PS4, I have not seen where exactly the xbone has more, the extra blur I see is due to the temporal pass. I'd also like to believe the developer where they say that AF is equal on both, and I really don't see why they'd lie about this especially after release. They corrected DF on many things in the prior analysis and have been forthcoming in sharing insight on their methods in this thread and others, it makes no sense to lie about your methods when it's now under the scrutiny of all. There's evidence to show that AA, RES, SHADOWS and FRAMERATE are all better on the PS4, but I have not seen the evidence on AF.


Since we're talking IQ, tearing is also worse on the XBONE. Fair enough analysis by DF, but I'm thinking they might be missing a few details, so I'm looking forward to see how NX dissects it and what he finds.
Suspicious? There's my preference, 900p and no AA on xbox over 1080p and ghosting on PS4. I'm sorry but it looks terrible, what's suspicious? Preference determined on facts presented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLYTIVS4N7E&spfreload=1

If you can't see it you need glasses.

If they patch it so the PS4 to have the same AA set up as Xbox then you are laughing aren't you. And what's all this shit about the xbox version is botched? It's a weaker machines what do you expect? They done alright with the tools they are given, and it's perfectly playable. It's not SMS fault is it, they've done what they can with what they have... Jaysis... Is there any danger of having conversation without a console warrior jumping in on everything around here?
 

travisbickle

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I am seeing a lot of 1 star reviews from average joe, on amazon, saying the game is unplayable as the steering doesn't work, should the controller default have not been set to game pad rather than wheel?



Suspicious? There's my preference, 900p and no AA on xbox over 1080p and ghosting on PS4. I'm sorry but it looks terrible, what's suspicious? Preference determined on facts presented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLYTIVS4N7E&spfreload=1

If you can't see it you need glasses.
Are you taking the piss? off-screen recording?

If people want to see a comparison just go to Gamersyde and download both One and PS4 videos. At least make your mind up based on direct feed.
 

MilkyJoe

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Are you taking the piss? off-screen recording?

If people want to see a comparison just go to Gamersyde and download both One and PS4 videos. At least make your mind up based on direct feed.
You can see it in that vid, it's clear enough. I can't post a feckin Gamersyde vid here can I? Christ on a bike...
 

Three

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You can see it in that vid, it's clear enough. I can't post a feckin Gamersyde vid here can I? Christ on a bike...
There are 60fps youtube videos in the OP link you can post. There is no need to post 30fps offscreen footage.
 

hesido

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I think we need a WebM comparison video concentrating on a few seconds? They don't take the slowed down gifs seriously. They don't want screenshots because "it doesn't reflect the game in motion". However, keep in mind, the ghost image is constant and there, and a million frames played consecutively at 60hz doesn't cause it to go away. It's just that, since the frames overlap with each-other, some people omit that information at high speeds (and some even at 30fps, evidenced by people who can't see it on a twitch video feed). I'm guessing a lot of the people who don't see the ghosting in motion won't be able to tell a 30fps feed from a 60fps feed, especially if the feed is downsampled, frameblended version of a 60fps video.

The effect is reminiscent of the atrociously bad-for-gaming LCD's with high response times. If this game's IQ is acceptable, the quick response LCD's of the last 10 years can be considered just a fad and a marketing gimmick, because that's what this game is emulating, and only a few of us are complaining.
 

Shpeshal Ed

aka Collingwood
Mar 16, 2007
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Just curious, ghosting over worse performance?
Well yeah. The ghosting is constant. The frame drops aren't that frequent and are avoidable depending on settings. As someone who has been playing games since the 80's, infrequent drops below 60 are the very definition of first world problems in a videogame context. I did say for ME, ghosting drives me crazy.

It really affected my enjoyment of Halo Reach and apparently its worse here.
 

nib95

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Feb 26, 2007
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I meant there are other issues that occur when recording a 60fps game literally off a TV screen.
If someone's posting off screen 30fps videos (in a tech thread of all places), when there are 60fps direct feed videos readily available, literally in the links in the OP, I'd hazard a guess that they may be intentionally trying to push a particular agenda….My guess is he went in to YouTube and posted the first link that popped up when specifically searching for the PS4 version's ghosting issues.
 

Three

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Well yeah. The ghosting is constant. The frame drops aren't that frequent and are avoidable depending on settings. As someone who has been playing games since the 80's, infrequent drops bell 60 are the very definition of first world problems in a videogame context. I did say for ME, ghosting drives me crazy.

It really affected my enjoyment of Halo Reach and apparently its worse here.
There is nothing infrequent about the framerate drops and screentear on the XB1 it does so even while stationary on the starting grid. They are not avoidable. You'll see how constant it is at the 3 minute mark

https://youtu.be/H_k1Pev66Dk

Question is why are we posting 30fps offscreen videos when the source video has demonstrated everything already better than it?

PS4
better performance
less tearing
better shadows
better AA
1080p

XB1
no ghosting
better AF

People can choose what they feel is important. Personally I agree with Digital foundry's verdict, get the PS4 version if you have both consoles especially for the more consistent controller input but ultimately it's up to the individual and people should respect other peoples choices. There is no need to post 30fps offscreen videos or incorrect information though. Framerate drops are consistent and the ghosting looks like the 60fps video in the OP source.
 

Cataferal

Digital Foundry
Feb 2, 2007
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I wouldn't mind if you could toggle on/off the temporal AA. May in fact improve peformance.
I doubt we'd see much in the way of a boost. It's a fairly basic temporal pass. Agreed I'd like the option to get rid of it - some people are more sensitive to it than others.

It must be said, the reason we used "real-time" comparison videos in the Face-Off (over 25% speed versions as we usually do) is because the ghosting just made everything impossible to see on PS4.

At that speed, you just can't generate a sensible discussion about the game's other aspects - the textures, shadows, effects and so on. It was just a double-image, and 3+ minutes of that would have been pointless in video.
 

Journey

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You can see it in that vid, it's clear enough. I can't post a feckin Gamersyde vid here can I? Christ on a bike...

Don't get so worked up about it. Person A posts an opinion about an actual first hand experience, person B transforms into warrior status, calling the opinion rubbish based on what he read on the net and some still shots. It's a classic witch hunt, but it wouldn't do anyone good by overreacting and posting off screen YouTube shots, that'll just create more ammo. I'm sure the dev will eventually add a toggle to disable the temporal AA, then everyone can hug and be happy again :)
 

MilkyJoe

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Don't get so worked up about it. Person A posts an opinion about an actual first hand experience, person B transforms into warrior status, calling the opinion rubbish based on what he read on the net and some still shots. It's a classic witch hunt, but it wouldn't do anyone good by overreacting and posting off screen YouTube shots, that'll just create more ammo. I'm sure the dev will eventually add a toggle to disable the temporal AA, then everyone can hug and be happy again :)
Yeah fair enough
 

dragonfart28

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Jun 12, 2009
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I'm a bit shocked at the Driveclub opinions on here.

I mean, I can understand if we are comparing PS4 versions of each game, but Project Cars on PC looks much better than Driveclub, imo
 

Windom Earle

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It feels goood to be an Nvidia PC gamer these days. Huge differences between PC and consoles here. PS4 is still ok, Xbone sounds very disappointing.

That being said, Project Cars is not a very good sim.
 

inpHilltr8r

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I still think the temporal AA implementation on PS4 is simply buggy. Temporal AA which uses screen-space motion vectors correctly should not look like that.
I would tend to agree. Some of those shots don't even look like they have motion compensated for at all. Although that's hard to be certain without seeing the previous frame. It could be just one component.