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Digital Foundry - Several sources indicate Neo will launch this year

Please show me evidence. We know the XBO has a CPU advantage but no FPS advantage.

Man CPU its 1.7 to 1.6, but Xbox has crap Memory, ESRAM, no Gddr5...smaller GPU...

Xb1 is bottle necked by so many bad design choices it was crucified on GAF when specs came out. Hell it still uses a 65 GBs bus lol or whatever it is.

A zen CPU would be effectively 70 % faster at same power. Do you think this is balanced in terms of improvemements ?

CPU + 30 %
GPU + 200 %
Bandwidth + 25 %

Looks a bit lop sided to me lol....Scorpio is totally ditching the Xb1 design and copying the Ps4, but adding + 100 % CPU, + 100 % bandwidth.......See ?
 
Does not work like that,

1.8 TF and 1.6 Ghz Jaguar = UC4.

5 TF and 2.1 Ghz Jaguar = Same frame rate, nicer AA shadows etc.

ND might squeeze 60 FPS, because well they are ND......

The problem is 2.1 Ghz Zen is coming, which would boost the CPU by 2 x estimate, our best chance of 60 FPS gaming.
Most games are not CPU limited, most are GPU limited. The main reason UC4 SP was not 60fps on PS4 was not because of the CPU, it had a lot to do with the GPU.

I do get your enthusiasm for a better CPU, it definitely helps to keep framerate up where there are heavy drawcalls, we can expect to see improved lod in console games, better A.I, better physics, less stuttering and hitching in openworld games and perhaps we may get a developer who's ready to do an ashes of singularity style game on the consoles or perhaps something more interesting, like a game which can finally make FEAR's A.I look robotic and antiquated ;) ......Surely, a vast game like NO man's Sky could definitely use some more CPU power, so could TLG with it's impressive physics and A.I.

A better CPU would make all these games run more stable, I do think they should upgrade the CPU too, but that does not mean it's an automatic 60fps from here on out, the developer equation is always something you have to be mindful of. Lets's be honest with ourselves, any type of intel i7 is good enough to run pretty much any popular AAA game well below full CPU usage, yet you still find that some of these games don't run at 60fps with a 970, 980, "380, 390" at ultra or sometimes even high, so it's never really clear cut.
 
Man CPU its 1.7 to 1.6, but Xbox has crap Memory, ESRAM, no Gddr5...smaller GPU...

Xb1 is bottle necked by so many bad design choices it was crucified on GAF when specs came out.

A zen CPU would be effectively 70 % faster at same power. Do you think this is balanced in terms of improvemements ?

CPU + 30 %
GPU + 200 %
Bandwidth + 25 %

Looks a bit lop sided to me lol....Scorpio is doing something like CPU and bandwidth by about 100 %, makes more sense, the 6 TF is overkill. 4 TF is overkill imo



Sooo. You're implying that Sony will release NEO with "Zilch, Zero, Nada, less than one" improvements to Framerate?
 
It can be argued which 1st party output is better. Some like MS, some like Sony. I don't seem to recall one being "overwhelmingly" better. As for 3rd party they both have the same AAA games. Sony has the better indie content but you can see how much they cared about that at E3. Software is a wash unless you just have to own Japanese games.

As for the original Xbox well I mean it also came out a year later than the PS2 and was their first attempt at a system so I'm not sure what you're getting at. It also had a great library of excellent games and stood well on it's own even compared to the PS2.

Like you said. They have the larger Indie and Japanese developer support. Not only that but in some third party games like Destiny, they are getting exclusive content. Then there's PS VR games. They overall have a larger portfolio of content that's diverse. Whether or not that appeals to you is a different story like I mentioned earlier.

My point about Xbox and PS2 is that simply being a more powerful console is not enough to sway most consumers. Scorpio will cost more than Neo. No doubt about that. If Neo comes out this year, then by the time Scorpio launches Sony can undercut them by $100. A cheaper price and a more diverse library vs a higher price and getting to play some third party games that look better. At least for me, MS needs to do more to create value than boasting system specs.
 
One thing is for certain. I am very excited for all the dick waving contests MS and Sony will be having over the next 5 years playing their game of one-upsmanship. As a hardware enthusiast having hardware that specifically caters to me is fantastic.

I think both companies are doing right by their respective customer bases in the way that makes the most sense for each role they occupy in the market.
 
We shall see but I give it a year or two after launch and we will start seeing Scorpio exclusive games. You don't create a machine as powerful as they are doing just to have it crippled by having to ensure everything that runs on it also runs on XB1.

It should be only to provide 4K gaming of the same games we can play on today's hardware. There must never be Scorpio or Neo exclusive games. If they want to start a new gen, they can start new hardware lines for that.
 
Sooo. You're implying that Sony will release NEO with "Zilch, Zero, Nada, less than one" improvements to Framerate?

Well no, some games with a CPU + 30 % will run at 60 with double the GPU power, I am sure Sony first party will optimise and do what they do. Naughty Gods its a given...I bet its already on Uc4 disk, GPGPU and running stuff on GPU logic...

What I am saying is games like Witcher 3, Fallout 4 will run mostly the same on Neo if they dont up the CPU. And for the next 3-4 years thats not good enough for me to rebuy another Ps4 at a higher price. 3rd parties are not going to do massive GPGPU optimisation, like they did not bother with SPE during Ps3 days/

more likely a rock solid 30fps with better bells and whistles

yup, notta lot to shout about.
 
Man CPU its 1.7 to 1.6, but Xbox has crap Memory, ESRAM, no Gddr5...smaller GPU...

Xb1 is bottle necked by so many bad design choices it was crucified on GAF when specs came out. Hell it still uses a 65 GBs bus lol or whatever it is.

A zen CPU would be effectively 70 % faster at same power. Do you think this is balanced in terms of improvemements ?

CPU + 30 %
GPU + 200 %
Bandwidth + 25 %

Looks a bit lop sided to me lol....Scorpio is totally ditching the Xb1 design and copying the Ps4, but adding + 100 % CPU, + 100 % bandwidth.......See ?

Yes, I see you don't know what you're talking about. No-one knows what CPU is going into Scorpio...and no-one knows what improvements we will see...but you are trying hard to pass your thoughts of a gimped Neo and a Zen CPU in Scorpio as facts.

What we actually know;

CPU ?
GPU 400%
Bandwidth 80%

Now tell me which looks more lop-sided. Have you watched the DF videos? They give a great insight as to what's likely to happen.
 
It should be only to provide 4K gaming of the same games we can play on today's hardware. There must never be Scorpio or Neo exclusive games. If they want to start a new gen, they can start new hardware lines for that.

And yet neither system are powerful enough to do true 4K gaming. Maybe something like Tetris in 4K but never will you seen something like the Witcher 3 at 4K native unless it's running at slideshow FPS.

Neither of these systems are 4K machines but they will be great 1080p machines and that's fine by me for now.

As for exclusives, Sony won't for Neo but I can't say the same for MS. I fully expect them to have Scorpio exclusive (and PC) titles at some point down the road, especially when it comes to VR as the XB1 simply can't do it.
 
IMO - this incremental configuration of the rumored $499 Jaguar/4.2 TF Neo is almost insulting compared to what the original PS4 offered in terms of value. Sony flirted with the idea of "PREMIUM" with the PS3 and that ended up with them in a very poor footing. To the suits up top this is all profit waiting to happen, but it could also result in a situation where a ton of good will could be lost. "Arrogant Sony..." memes are ironically still around.

What are you talking about? Why would Sony build up all of this goodwill after 3 years just to pull something insanely stupid like this?
 
Yes, I see you don't know what you're talking about. No-one knows what CPU is going into Scorpio...and no-one knows what improvements we will see...but you are trying hard to pass your thoughts of a gimped Neo and a Zen CPU in Scorpio as facts.

http://wccftech.com/amd-guarantees-x86-zen-processors-offer-performance-improvements/

http://www.techpowerup.com/223385/microsoft-xbox-scorpio-soc-powered-by-polaris-and-zen

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10418...-backwards-compatible-with-xbox-zen-or-jaguar
 
Yes, I see you don't know what you're talking about. No-one knows what CPU is going into Scorpio...and no-one knows what improvements we will see...but you are trying hard to pass your thoughts of a gimped Neo and a Zen CPU in Scorpio as facts.

What we actually know;

CPU ?
GPU 400%
Bandwidth 80%

Now tell me which looks more lop-sided. Have you watched the DF videos? They give a great insight as to what's likely to happen.

Good point, but Scorpio is copying Ps4 in design, so lets list them side by side,

Neo over Ps4

CPU 30 %
GPU 250 %
Bandwidth 25 %

Scorpio over ps4

CPU ~ 100 % (zen is 70 % more than Jaguar)
GPU 400 % or whatever, way too much
Bandwidth 80 %.

So, Scorpio could easily achieve 60 FPS gaming as everything is having a good bump...Scorpio looks tasty for a 1440p60 on paper. Maybe its the ideal spec design for PC VR .....surprise surprise !

Neo is lopsided and not strong enough increase to achieve the next established performance levels (60 FPS or 4K)
 
Trying to catch up with this thread. Seen a few price points thrown around. I thought everything pointed to a $399 price point? Seems the most likely with these specs, right? Couldn't be more, could it?
 
Color me thoroughly entertained that when considering Neo and Scorpio one could come to the conclusion that the latter is beautifully balanced and the former is a mess — when the ratio of GPU computational throughput to memory bandwidth is essentially the same for both based on what we think we know. That leaves the CPU as the only point of contention, and given the need to run titles on the base systems to reach a large enough addressable audience I don't think developers can really exploit huge gains on that front.

Both systems look promising on a spec sheet and face challenges in messaging and market reception. The critical test will come when we finally see what they can do in practice and whether they get significant uptake. That's not going to be a head-to-head battle if the Neo really does launch by this holiday season. It will have a chance to make its case and solidify consumer perceptions when real software and hardware is sitting on shelves. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how that plays out.
 
It should be only to provide 4K gaming of the same games we can play on today's hardware. There must never be Scorpio or Neo exclusive games. If they want to start a new gen, they can start new hardware lines for that.

Unless its VR, then it doesnt matter.

VR not working on the regular xbox one is the definition of exclusive.
 
Color me thoroughly entertained that when considering Neo and Scorpio one could come to the conclusion that the latter is beautifully balanced and the former is a mess — when the ratio of GPU computational throughput to memory bandwidth is essentially the same for both based on what we think we know. That leaves the CPU as the only point of contention, and given the need to run titles on the base systems to reach a large enough addressable audience I don't think developers can really exploit huge gains on that front.

Both systems look promising on a spec sheet and face challenges in messaging and market reception. The critical test will come when we finally see what they can do in practice and whether they get significant uptake. That's not going to be a head-to-head battle if the Neo really does launch by this holiday season. It will have a chance to make its case and solidify consumer perceptions when real software and hardware is sitting on shelves. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how that plays out.

A very clear and well-informed post.
Thank you.
 
3rd parties are not going to do massive GPGPU optimisation, like they did not bother with SPE during Ps3 days/
That's stretching things quite a bit, don't you think? SPE was a more proprietary implementation, instituted by a single hardware manufacturer whose product didn't dominate that particular console cycle, whereas GPGPU is being adopted by a much broader coalition of the 3d hardware industry's OEMs. GPGPU has broader API support, broader language support...anyone not doing significant GPGPU optimization going forward seems like they'll be missing the boat.
 
Color me thoroughly entertained that when considering Neo and Scorpio one could come to the conclusion that the latter is beautifully balanced and the former is a mess — when the ratio of GPU computational throughput to memory bandwidth is essentially the same for both based on what we think we know.

Yes the Neo and Scorpio are balanced GPU to Memory. I was not arguing that.

I am saying the Jaguar is a joke and will be a bottle neck to better frame rates.

You are saying no comment or nobody will bother anyway. So we agree ?

TLOU runs at 60fps.

Yeah great wast it, with a better CPU more tasking open world games like Witcher 3 could do that as well.
 
Has it been confirmed that Scorpio has Zen?

We have strong leaks from several online publications [not random forum leakers] that Neo will have nicely overclocked Jaguar [which is fine, most games are GPU bound anyway]. We don't know final Sony plans of course.


As for Scorpio, MS has said that it has 8 cores. Those could be Zen cores with 16 threads [low power netbook/laptop variant, it will NOT be a full 70+W desktop part], or 8 plain old or upgraded Jaguar cores [Carrizo?].
 
While your talking about that vague Yoshida quote, your forgetting that we have direct quote from Andrew House himself, above Yoshida, talking about preserving generational cycles and not considering NEO a 'new launch' but only an addition to the PS4 ecosystem.

If they wanted to do away with gen cycles, they would do the same thing MS is doing now. It is to their advantage to keep them around, with MS going to iterative hardware, they can control developers design choices around their HW with their userbase

But isn't that the same thing xbox said during E3 about how the Scorpio is added to the xbox family?

Neo is the same concept.
 
Please show me evidence. We know the XBO has a CPU advantage but no FPS advantage.

I get what you are saying, but there have been some examples where the slightly higher clocked cpu in xbone has shown to giver better fps in cpu intensive areas in games. For example, I think both AC: Unity and AC: syndicate had better fps on xbone in cpu limited areas. I am sure there are mor examples but I don'y exactly write them down when I come across them.

Point is, you two are trying to make some stupid argument about cpu or gpu increasing framerate when both do and it entirely depends on what the game in question is doing.
 
That seems a bit steep if it's the specs as 'known' by the leaks. I thought $499 was the upgraded CPU rumour.

I'm confused :(

$499 is the price that has been associated with the upgraded CPU. A certain non-vetted member has been so adamant in saying the $499 price is now tied to the original leaked specs that some people are starting to believe it.

It's gonna be LONG wait with all kind of false and/or outdated info being peddled until Sony reveals this damn thing.
 
It needs to be US$ 399, with the vanilla PS4 dropping to US$ 299.

Why, house said he wanted an enthusiast ps4 to encourage some not to switch to PC gaming.

Most PC gamers demand 60 FPS and scoff at us console peasants.

Neo at US 399 is not going to do that is it ? The Giant Bomb / DF leaked specs are too weak. So whats the point of Neo ?

$499 is the price that has been associated with the upgraded CPU. A certain non-vetted member has been so adamant in saying the $499 price is now tied to the original leaked specs that some people are starting to believe it.

Could be why I am getting my nickers in a twist.

If Neo is zen light / a CPU major upgrade over the leaked specs then its day 1, 2 please even at $ 499. because that would be good value.
 
Why, house said he wanted an enthusiast ps4 to encourage some not to switch to PC gaming.

There is no magic involved.

The mere fact they are switching to 14nm APU is enough to give them a big performance boost, and that is enough to give console players reason to stay away from PC if that is their wish.

There is nothing in Neo that should increase the cost of the console [eventually only lower yields of 14nm chips, nothing more].
 
$499 is the price that has been associated with the upgraded CPU. A certain non-vetted member has been so adamant in saying the $499 price is now tied to the original leaked specs that some people are starting to believe it.

Yeah that smells like BS to me. With the 'leaked' specs, and node shrink, this shouldn't be costing Sony any more than a launch PS4. Unless they are choosing to sell it at a premium, which seems odd.
 
What people might be forgetting is that there are perhaps more incentives for MS to put Zen cores in the Scorpio than Sony have. Perhaps having Zen core gives MS more headroom to run the OS functionality without hogging performance from the game.

Whatever W10 MS will have in the machine, perhaps things would run smoother with Zen cores.
 
Why exactly does it need to be $399? That is not a premium product price aimed at the hardcore as House described.

You have to keep in mind that the first customers Sony is trying to keep are those who spent 399$ three years ago for PS4.

So basically 399+ 399= 798 $ in three years

And if you add PSVR another 399$ is required
 
There is no magic involved.

The mere fact they are switching to 14nm APU is enough to give them a big performance boost, and that is enough to give console players reason to stay away from PC if that is their wish.

There is nothing in Neo that should increase the cost of the console [eventually only lower yields of 14nm chips, nothing more].

No, 14 nm is not enough, 30 to 60 FPS is enough, does not matter how Sony do it, thats what consumers would want. If Sony fall short then they fail

What people might be forgetting is that there are perhaps more incentives for MS to put Zen cores in the Scorpio than Sony have. Perhaps having Zen core gives MS more headroom to run the OS functionality without hogging performance from the game.

Zen is 70 % more efficient than Jaguar. it will run games faster for sure, you would think they were considering VR or something with Occulus and Cormak on the stage and mentioning Fallout 4 in VR,...........strange...

No way is jaguar running taxing games like Fallout 4 at 90 FPS .....
 
Apparently, some smart technical guys have found evidence that Uncharted 4 already has Neo support. They intercepted some of the network traffic sent from the PS4 to the PSN servers and found flags that implied UC4 knew whether it was running on Neo or not.
It is not only PS4... games made with the new devkit already set parameters for Neo and VR.

That doesn't mean the game is Neo or VR ready... maybe the need a patch to enable it.
 
Why, house said he wanted an enthusiast ps4 to encourage some not to switch to PC gaming.

Most PC gamers demand 60 FPS and scoff at us console peasants.

Neo at US 399 is not going to do that is it ? The leaked specs are weak.



Could be why I am getting my nickers in a twist. If Neo is zen light and a nice CPU bump MORE than just a clock, and the bandwidth now has compression technology in Polaris, then I would buy 2 Neo's day 1.

You seem to be one of few people that get this. The leaked specs at that price goes against everything House said about being a premium product for the hardcore. It becomes absolutely laughable to believe those specs would give any one a second thought about jumping to PC.

Sony already has me in line for Neo just because I want to play the exclusives in the best way possible. But if those leaked specs are true PC is going to start getting a big chunk of my mulitplat spending.
 
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