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[Skittzo0413]

wouldnt it be possible to be 720p downsapled from 900p when undocked but connected to a power supply?

Game looks really nice for a portable game, for sure. Not outstanding, but artstyle makes it appealing.

Then you'd run into the problem of burning your hands, since it gets fairly hot at docked mode clocks. Also the fan will be running faster while the Switch is still in portable mode, if it's dropped or shaken badly that could cause mechanical failure.

 

[tzare]

Then you'd run into the problem of burning your hands, since it gets fairly hot at docked mode clocks. Also the fan will be running faster while the Switch is still in portable mode, if it's dropped or shaken badly that could cause mechanical failure.

oh, makes sense then i guess, in case it is dropped. I guess heat isn't an issue if holding it using the joycons. And fan noise , idk, is it very loud? Could play with headphones iu guess

 

[leng jai]

Says they added a bunch of effects to docked mode. Wonder if they could just take the 720p handheld mode and bumped it up to 1080p while still keeping it at 60fps? I mean I'd much rather run it at native resolution then have slightly sharper shadows and slightly more detail.

 

[Hermii]

Says they added a bunch of effects to docked mode. Wonder if they could just take the 720p handheld mode and bumped it up to 1080p while still keeping it at 60fps? I mean I'd much rather run it at native resolution then have slightly sharper shadows and slightly more detail.

Almost certainly not. They didn’t add a bunch of effects, they just slightly tweaked a few settings. They probably didn’t have enough headroom for 1080p

 

[Wiped89]

60 fps is the star of the show here. Just to teach this fucking 4k industry thay what matters is 1080p 60 fps. Not higher resolutions with frame rate drops.

But it's not 1080p 60fps?

I might be the only person who thinks the graphics don't look that great. Which is weird because I had a Wii U since launch and thought the graphics were fine. Even Breath of the Wild looks bad to me, though.

Damn PS4 Pro has ruined me 😢

To be fair it's not just a Switch thing. I remember the first time I went back to Forza Horizon 3 after playing PS4 Pro. Suddenly I was seeing jaggies everywhere 😢

 

[c1d]

I'm really glad this is getting 60fps, 900p is fine and 720p in handheld is perfect

 

[FF Seraphim]

720p at 60fps in handheld mode? Excellent. I hardly play my switched docked so this is awesome.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Then you'd run into the problem of burning your hands, since it gets fairly hot at docked mode clocks. Also the fan will be running faster while the Switch is still in portable mode, if it's dropped or shaken badly that could cause mechanical failure.

It really makes me wonder why they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It really makes me wonder they they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

It's likely just a price thing. They got a good price on an off the shelf part. In whatever comes after the Switch they likely will use a smaller process with a better power efficiency.

 

[Skittzo0413]

It really makes me wonder they they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

It's pretty likely that it was just an issue of timing. Tegra X2 was barely a thing even this January, so it's highly unlikely that they could have 2.8 million of them ready in March. I'm not sure how else they could customize the Tegra X1 to help with heat dissipation or allow for higher clock rates.

But all in all, I think the early success of the Switch shows that they made the right decision.

EDIT: Oh of course, price is a huge issue too.

 

[Hyoukokun]

It really makes me wonder they they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

By all accounts a refined / better chip did not exist and could not have been implemented in time for launch. They needed to have it ready well in advance of the launch date to manufacture stock. People would have been out for blood if Zelda had been delayed again, too.

While in retrospect the March launch date worked out, I am sure Nintendo would have preferred a holiday launch. That should tell you how tight their timeline was - and they still experienced major launch shortages.

 

[cw_sasuke]

It really makes me wonder they they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

Thats a weird way to look at it....Nintendo and nVidia working together has been great for both parties and developers are benefiting from it.

 

[FutureLarking]

It's pretty likely that it was just an issue of timing. Tegra X2 was barely a thing even this January, so it's highly unlikely that they could have 2.8 million of them ready in March. I'm not sure how else they could customize the Tegra X1 to help with heat dissipation or allow for higher clock rates.

But all in all, I think the early success of the Switch shows that they made the right decision.

EDIT: Oh of course, price is a huge issue too.

A die shrink for starters - let's assume they've had at least a 2 year lead time *before* Switch launch for this. Could have been possible, for a bit more cash.

 

[Skittzo0413]

A die shrink for starters - let's assume they've had at least a 2 year lead time *before* Switch launch for this. Could have been possible, for a bit more cash.

Didn't the Tegra X1 itself only launch 2 years before the Switch did? How is that enough time to prepare a die shrink of that same chip?

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No 1080 no buy!

/s

 

[Hermii]

Didn't the Tegra X1 itself only launch 2 years before the Switch did? How is that enough time to prepare a die shrink of that same chip?

Xbox one s took 2.5 years and that’s from 28 to 16. I’m sure it would have been possible, at least with a small delay.

No customizations whatsoever is very unusual for a gaming console.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Yeah, I was thinking about something as simple as a die shrink. The X1 was is 2 years old.

This isn't about magically making the hardware more powerful. Just refining it to do what it can already do without overheating. Instead, they just lowered the clocks, and put it into an even smaller device. I mean, this is a problem chip that can't perform the way Nvidia wanted it to perform. They set those clocks for Shield TV because they thought it wasn't an issue. We all know that's not the case.

 

[Maxrunner]

i wonder whats their next step for the hybrid solution. Put more computational power in the dock this time?

 

[Skittzo0413]

Xbox one s took 2.5 years and that’s from 28 to 16. I’m sure it would have been possible, at least with a small delay.

No customizations whatsoever is very unusual for a gaming console.

I mean the chip itself is only 2 years old. I don't see how they could have prepared a die shrink in less than 2 years since the chip existed to prepare enough units for the March launch.

I do agree on your second point.

 

[Hermii]

i wonder whats their next step for the hybrid solution. Put more computational power in the dock this time?

Next step is probably either an x2 or a die shrunk x1. Either higher clocks and more powerful or same clocks and lower power consumption.

The step after that is much more interesting, if it’s a fully custom Volta based tegra.

 

[Cow Mengde]

It's likely just a price thing. They got a good price on an off the shelf part. In whatever comes after the Switch they likely will use a smaller process with a better power efficiency.

Yeah, you're probably right. There were rumors that Nintendo got a sweet deal off the chip.

 

[Galava]

Next step is probably either an x2 or a die shrunk x1. Either higher clocks and more powerful or same clocks and lower power consumption.

The step after that is much more interesting, if it's a fully custom Volta based tegra.

Yup, something along those lines. Tegra X2 can deliver almost double the flops of the X1 (Switch), so just that chip would be a huge upgrade for the console and put it about 25% above default PS4*

No need for a strong dock or whatever, just put newer chip on it and call it a Pro. Nvidia would be onboard to do it.

*I'm not looking at the exact numbers now, so I' kinda pulling them out of my ass. But the numbers where along those lines as far as i remember.

 

[Hermii]

Yup, something along those lines. Tegra X2 can deliver almost double the flops of the X1 (Switch), so just that chip would be a huge upgrade for the console and put it about 25% above default PS4*

No need for a strong dock or whatever, just put newer chip on it and call it a Pro. Nvidia would be onboard to do it.

*I'm not looking at the exact numbers now, so I' kinda pulling them out of my ass. But the numbers where along those lines as far as i remember.

A Volta may approach PS4 level, an x2 is still far below.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

Thanks for the detailed post. I'd love to know if Nintendo is holding back the switch hardware at all or if it's operating at max potential already. I remember hearing that the xbox was upclocked prior to launch, and was upclocked further when they removed the kinect. It would be a pleasant surprise if a future firmware update could increase the gpu output in docked mode.

I would say no. There's only so far you can push clocks inside a tablet device with a tiny fan and small vents.

When Switch hits it's first sales plateau (I'm thinking summer 2018) you can bet Nintendo and Nvidia already have the design for Switch 2.0 ready to go which will be double the computational power inside the same thermal envelope. So around 500gflops in handheld mode and 1tflop when docked. When you take into account the Vulcan api, fp16 and Nvidia's architectural gains over AMD, Switch 2.0 should be able to run games on par with the base Xbox One S aswell as running first party games like Breath of the Wild, Splatoon 2 and Mario Odyssey at a locked 1080p.

Those people don't complain about 900p 60fps is because usually those games are usually very visually demanding like Battlefront for example big maps, 40 players at once with chaos all over accompanied with great high fidelity visuals at 900p 60fps on consoles that's when it's more rightly deserved not to complain about considering what they achieved with all this high demanding stuff, if it's a game where there's not much excuse that it's 900p 60fps on the other console when it's not really demanding that's when they usually get more flak as it should as it shows either lack of optimisation or not using the hardware well enough.

Mario Odyssey now clearly shows it fully utilises the Switch hardware at 900p 60fps and has some visually demanding stuff too which is impressive especially considering the form factor, people shouldn't complain about this resolution it's amazing what they achieved especially raising from 720p to 900p

Of course but every piece of console software is impressive or not so relative to the hardware it's running on. There are some astounding looking PS4 games that run at 900p/30fps (my personal favourites are the UFC games and Mass Effect Andromeda's Worlds). My comments were more aimed at people who shit all over a game based on resolution and framerate alone... "only 900p lol" and the like. I should have been more clear.

Mario Odyssey is a technical showpiece for the hardware it's running on and I'm sure we've yet to see some of the more impressive looking Worlds nearer to the end of the game.

 

[OryoN]

But it's not 1080p 60fps?

I think his point was that games like this - where 60fps is prioritized - should show the industry - in its current mad dash to 4k - that this extra power is better used if it could target 60fps @ 1080p (which still looks hella crisp), as apposed to 30fps and below. 4k resolution is appreciable, but doesn't add much to a game, especially when it's coming at a cost in precious frames. Of course, the CPU could be a bottleneck quite a few instances, but his main point, as I understand, is a valid one.

 

[RAWRferal]

900p60 is totally fine for me.

The image quality looks far improved from the e3 footage which was worryingly rough-looking. New Donk City is the only place that looks a little janky now, still visible aliasing due to the harsh geometric edges but whatever.

Besides this game looks to have a crazy amount going on and the artstyle is bright, vivid and gorgeous. Works for me!

 

[Skittzo0413]

900p60 is totally fine for me.

The image quality looks far improved from the e3 footage which was worryingly rough-looking. New Donk City is the only place that looks a little janky now, still visible aliasing due to the harsh geometric edges but whatever.

Besides this game looks to have a crazy amount going on and the artstyle is bright, vivid and gorgeous. Works for me!

Just so people are aware, the build in the DF video only had 3 kingdoms available, and none of them were the Metro Kingdom/New Donk City. So that footage is still from E3, and very likely received the same upgrade we've seen in these 3 new kingdoms.

 

[Duchess O'Death]

I think his point was that games like this - where 60fps is prioritized - should show the industry - in its current mad dash to 4k - that this extra power is better used if it could target 60fps @ 1080p (which still looks hella crisp), as apposed to 30fps and below. 4k resolution is appreciable, but doesn't add much to a game, especially when it's coming at a cost in precious frames. Of course, the CPU could be a bottleneck quite a few instances, but his main point, as I understand, is a valid one.

Not every game needs to sacrifice graphics and IQ to hit 60fps though. The industry is doing fine. There's nothing to teach here.

 

[pretty done]

No 1080 no buy!

/s

Nice


/s

 

[Cow Mengde]

I wonder if Digital Foundry will go back to analyze Pokken again? I know they already did it for the preview, but would be interesting to see if there are more improvements in the final game.

 

[OryoN]

Not every game needs to sacrifice graphics and IQ to hit 60fps though. The industry is doing fine. There's nothing to teach here.

Those particular cases wasn't where the poster's argument was directed though. He was pretty clear about which trend he didn't particularly like. Whether others agree, is another discussion - one we've had several times - altogether.

 

[Oblivion]

Wait, so is there AA or not?

The video says there's no AA, but it did feel like the models were a bit smoother in this video.

 

[jamonbread]

It really makes me wonder why they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

I remember watching the digital foundry analysis of Breath Of the Wild on the Switch, and they believed the slowdown was caused by memory steaming issues, and not an issue with GPU or CPU slowdown.

A lot of the problems with resolution hitting 1080 in docked mode, could often be down to memory bandwidth issues. Its a shame they couldn't of somehow added a chunk of fast ram to the X1's chipset but it almost certainly wasn't a viable option.

 

[ozfunghi]

Wait, so is there AA or not?

The video says there's no AA, but it did feel like the models were a bit smoother in this video.

There seems to be some form of "poor man's AA" going on, which is enough to make the edges less of an issue.

 

[Hermii]

It really makes me wonder why they didn't refine the Tegra X1 chip for the Switch. The chip in Shield TV was clocked higher, but ran into heat issues, but if they had refined the chip some more, maybe it could have maintained those clocks in docked mode. Something just doesn't add up with this partnership with Nvidia. They just took a problematic chip off the shelf and just crammed in into a different design.

It was probably a combination of a price and schedule issue, Nvidia gave them a good deal that they couldn't say no to, and they really didn't want to ride out the Wii U any longer than they had to. Also, they could have done worse with an off the shelf chip., its not a terrible choice.

The real benefit of partnering with Nvidia is that they get a full PC like featureset with the Maxwell architecture on a mobile chip, and expertly made dev tools that Nintendo probably wouldn't have been able to make as good on their own. This is already paying dividends as Indies love the thing.

With next gen they will probably have to go full custom, as the Xavier / Volta Tegra is planned for cars only and is way to power hungry to adapt into a tablet.

 

[Neith]

No AA is stupid, ruined the art style.

I have a really hard time playing any game whatsoever without AA. It is what it is. The Switch 2 I would hope fixes all these things. Minor annoyances to some. Huge to others.

There seems to be some form of "poor man's AA" going on, which is enough to make the edges less of an issue.

I've never seen any poor man's AA make aliasing much different on 720p or 900p to be honest.

Poor man's AA on Watch Dogs 2 for example will ruin your soul. It basically does nothing. At 1080p.

On 720p here the aliasing is horrid. The 900p version looks okay because the art style barely gets by without it. But at home 900p usually looks not too great without AA.

It does appear there is something going on in the docked mode at least to me. I didn't watch too much as I don't want to spoil the game.

 

[TrutaS]

Opened the video, saw 2 seconds in the middle, looked so crisp and colourful and smooth that it felt like spoilers for this experience so I had to close the video. It looks absolutely incredible.

 

[m00h]

I've never seen any poor man's AA make aliasing much different on 720p or 900p to be honest.

But have you seen poor man's AA for 720p on an 6" screen?

 

[Neith]

But have you seen poor man's AA for 720p on an 6" screen?

Yeah definitely not on a 6 inch screen. I didn't want to spoil much in the video, but 720p is perhaps fine for a lot of people on a small screen.

Still, my main thing if I got a Switch would be docked. I have no problem waiting for a new version anyway. I'm still catching up with old games.

Mario is one game that doesn't look heartbreaking without any AA, and a little bit should make it decent enough.

 

[ShadowFox08]

I wonder if Digital Foundry will go back to analyze Pokken again? I know they already did it for the preview, but would be interesting to see if there are more improvements in the final game.

I don't see anything noticable outside of 720p native. For a console that's supposed to be 4x as powerful in GPU, 2-3x CPU, and 3x more RAM for games than the Wii U, I'm really dissapointed we only just got a small ass resolution upgrade. I mean seriously.. what's their excuse? There's not a ton of things going on in the game, just two fighters at a time and occasionally some support pokemon. I bet it could have at least gotten 900-1080p with some improvements to fidelity.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I don't see anything noticable outside of 720p native. For a console that's supposed to be 4x as powerful in GPU, 2-3x CPU, and 3x more RAM for games than the Wii U, I'm really dissapointed we only just got a small ass resolution upgrade. I mean seriously.. what's their excuse? There's not a ton of things going on in the game, just two fighters at a time and occasionally some support pokemon. I bet it could have at least gotten 900-1080p with some improvements to fidelity.

Yeah, that's why I'm really curious about Pokken. This is a Namco game though, so maybe Namco's engine's not as well optimized for Nintendo's consoles yet? I know even on the Wii U, it ran at only 960 x 720 as I recall. Very strange. Tekken on Wii U also ran at sub HD.

 

[czk]

Still, my main thing if I got a Switch would be docked. I have no problem waiting for a new version anyway. I'm still catching up with old games.

Don't be so sure until you try it. I also had the plan to play Docked, but handheld switch is so practical than I mostly play undocked in my home.

 

[Luigiv]

Then you'd run into the problem of burning your hands,

Lol, come on man, the switch doesn't get that hot. Maybe a bit uncomfortably warm, but not so hot you'd actually burn yourself (that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen if it did).

That said, I would guess that heat ultimately is the culprit for why they don't bother up clocking with the charger plugged in, though for the safety of the hardware itself, not yours. Because the air intakes are on the back of the unit, they don't want people leaving the unit flat on the table whilst the system is running at full speed. Same reason why Nintendo doesn't make the Switch compatible with generic USB-C dongles (well one of the reasons, I don't need to spell out the other big one). The dock is design in such a way that you more or less can't block the air flow, so it makes sense to limit full performance to that.

It also means less QA testing per game too.

 

[Skittzo0413]

Lol, come on man, the switch doesn't get that hot. Maybe a bit uncomfortably warm, but not so hot you'd actually burn yourself (that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen if it did).

That said, I would guess that heat ultimately is the culprit for why they don't bother up clocking with the charger plugged in, though for the safety of the hardware itself, not yours. Because the air intakes are on the back of the unit, they don't want people leaving the unit flat on the table whilst the system is running at full speed. Same reason why Nintendo doesn't make the Switch compatible with generic USB-C dongles (well one of the reasons, I don't need to spell out the other big one). The dock is design in such a way that you more or less can't block the air flow, so it makes sense to limit full performance to that.

It also means less QA testing per game too.

Well yeah I don't mean McDonald's lawsuit burns, I mean it would get really uncomfortable during long play sessions. And for very little benefit (super-sampling from 900p). But yeah I agree protecting the hardware is likely the biggest reason.

It's all around just not worth the various risks to give you slightly better IQ on the 6.2 inch screen.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

No 1080 no buy!

/s

It would be fascinating to see a blind test done on some of the people that say that sort of thing. The same thing for native 1440p / cb1600p / cb1800p upscaled on a 4k display.

I would bet the majority of those same people wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference from a sensible viewing distance. It's unfortunate that not hitting a certain resolution has become a weapon to wield in the "console wars"...

On the subject of if Switch could have been more powerful. The X2 will almost certainly be the basis for Switch 2.0. along the lines of "new 3DS". I'm thinking a Winter 2018 release with the shrunken X1 chip being the basis for the future handheld only Switch variant released once they can sell it for $199 sometime in 2019.

Summer 2018 Price Drop - Standard Switch - $249.
Late 2018 - Switch 2.0 - $299.
Spring 2019 - Dedicated Handheld Switch - $199.

 

[KageMaru]

Looks like a great showcase for the hardware. The art style really does a great job at masking the lower resolutions, material shaders look really good, draw distance is more than acceptable, worlds look large, etc. and all at 60fps. Nintendo is on a roll this year.

 

[jdmonmou]

Looking forward to this. I'm probably going to end up playing 99% of this game in portable mode even though I don't take my Switch anywhere.

 

[TheMink]

What’s Zeldas undocked resolution? Is it 720? Cause I thought that looked totally good.

 

[xochipiltontli]

It would be fascinating to see a blind test done on some of the people that say that sort of thing. The same thing for native 1440p / cb1600p / cb1800p upscaled on a 4k display.

I would bet the majority of those same people wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference from a sensible viewing distance. It's unfortunate that not hitting a certain resolution has become a weapon to wield in the "console wars"...

On the subject of if Switch could have been more powerful. The X2 will almost certainly be the basis for Switch 2.0. along the lines of "new 3DS". I'm thinking a Winter 2018 release with the shrunken X1 chip being the basis for the future handheld only Switch variant released once they can sell it for $199 sometime in 2019.

Summer 2018 Price Drop - Standard Switch - $249.
Late 2018 - Switch 2.0 - $299.
Spring 2019 - Dedicated Handheld Switch - $199.

I could tell that the game was 900p most of the time, though I wrongly believed it was dynamic and that Mount Volbono was 1080p. The anti aliasing is pretty decent, and the game’s art style helps a lot. New Donk City seemed to have a lot of aliasing even in the recent direct though, I’m guessing 720p when you have large views of the city.

As much as I would love to see a Switch Pro revision of sorts that manages a consistent 720p undocked and 1080p docked, I don’t see Nintendo doing patches for their early Switch games to bring them up to par with the hardware, which is a shame as we probably won’t see 1080p new Zelda/Mario outside of CEMU for another 4-5 years. Maybe Splatoon and other dynamic res games will automatically adapt at 720p/1080p, but I doubt it. I don’t even mind the PS3/360 esque geometry and effects in most games, I mostly just want higher IQ and better framerate.

 

[Skittzo0413]

What's Zeldas undocked resolution? Is it 720? Cause I thought that looked totally good.

It's actually dynamic and dips below 720p for Zelda. In handheld mode you can't get higher than 720p since the screen is 720p. They could render higher for supersampling but there are better and cheaper forms of AA, so 720p is realistically the cap.

It would be fascinating to see a blind test done on some of the people that say that sort of thing. The same thing for native 1440p / cb1600p / cb1800p upscaled on a 4k display.

I would bet the majority of those same people wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference from a sensible viewing distance. It's unfortunate that not hitting a certain resolution has become a weapon to wield in the "console wars"...

I was saying Digital Foundry should do an experiment like that, where they say that this game renders at X resolution when that's not true, just to see how people react, though that would be awful for that game.

I mean, we have people in this thread talking about the disgusting IQ due to lack of AA, when there is clearly AA going on and the IQ looks great.