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Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview

if the PS4 in like... 40% more powerful than Xbox one.. how much Xbox one is more powerful than WII U ? also around 40% ?

or 400% ? " as in 4x more powerful than WII U "

I am wondering if by 40% will mean something more than PS4 to have 1080p and Xbox one 900P . because frankly that doesn't mean much to me " I know I am weird"

or the difference between the PS4 and Xbox one is like PS2 and DC.
 
What are you talking about? It doesn't get much clear to explain their design goals than this:



GDDR5 is uncomfortable because it costs more and makes the design draw more power. Embedded ram offers the bandwidth performance you want, and allows you to have save some bucks on the system memory and the system total power consumption.

Two different solutions to the same problem: Bandwidth. One is harder/costlier to put on a game console, the other is harder to develop for. They chose theirs and explained why.
"I will buy the console that draws less power and uses parts cheaper to produce" - said no gamer ever.

Cost isn't the issue since the PS4 is cheaper for the consumer and if MS was concerned about power draw they wouldn't be adding Kinect, no matter how small the draw.

It is disingenuous and does nothing but nitpick/cherry pick a positive out of a decidedly negative hardware decision. Disingenuous, indeed.
 
You make the mistake of assuming a bustling online forum with diverse posters, thoughts, and agendas should have a single source of credibility to begin with.

GAF probably has more credibility than any other gaming forum out there. More insiders posting or browsing as well. We also have a strict vetting system, something most forums don't have, that keeps us far more on point as far as the spread of insider titbits, less FUD etc, and being slightly more shill free too (of which there have been dozens and dozens banned for lately, who presumably still post/shill on other non vetted forums Un-challenged).
 
I agree, that's because I am not personally technically adept enough to grasp the true implication of their words. This is why I said to a large degree what I am saying is subjective. People can argue what games look better till they are blue in the face, ultimately we will all have our own opinion and that's what counts.

You choose to highlight every negative aspect of the X1 exclusives, yet Killzone SF uses prebaked global illumination, who cares if it looks great?
Source? I don't think it has any GI implemented. I keep going through their presentations and videos looking for source on the GI claims, but it goes back to KRT00. So I'm not to sure that they even have any. Because I don't even know where HE got his info from.
 
if the PS4 in like... 40% more powerful than Xbox one.. how much Xbox one is more powerful than WII U ? also around 40% ?

or 400% ? " as in 4x more powerful than WII U "

I am wondering if by 40% will mean something more than PS4 to have 1080p and Xbox one 900P . because frankly that doesn't mean much to me " I know I am weird"

or the difference between the PS4 and Xbox one is like PS2 and DC.

The bolded part.
 
I'm not that sure... what do you try convince the others (or more yourself)? Delight us, please. Xbone has the same power of ps4? Or not count at the end? Well, considering it costs 100$ more, a lot of people will care...

If you read my posts above you will understand what I am asking. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just that if people want to point out X1 resolutions as some flaw to the system then I can also do the same with PS4. I already made the point that it means nothing if the game looks good.
 
if the PS4 in like... 40% more powerful than Xbox one.. how much Xbox one is more powerful than WII U ? also around 40% ?

I thought PS4's GPU is 56% more powerful than Xbone's GPU, since 10% of their GPU is reserved for OS features?! Allocated RAM usage and GPU reserve will go down as the OS matures.
 
GAF probably has more credibility than any other gaming forum out there. More insiders posting or browsing as well. We also have a strict vetting system, something most forums don't have, that keeps us far more on point as far as the spread of insider titbits, less FUD etc, and being slightly more shill free too (of which there have been dozens and dozens banned for lately, who presumably still post/shill on other non vetted forums Un-challenged).
From the outset the average quality of poster is higher here. But I have problems with treating this forum like a singular entity instead of a whirling mass of diverse viewpoints that occasionally coincide.
 
This is from the last big thread.

X1 GPU:
1.18 TF GPU (12 CUs) for games
768 Shaders
48 Texture units
16 ROPS
2 ACE/ 16 queues

PS4 GPU:
1.84TF GPU (14+4 balanced) for games + 56%
1152 Shaders +50%
72 Texture units +50%
32 ROPS + 100%
8 ACE/64 queues +400%

Fixed.
 
why the PS4 doesn't use any % of the GPU ? since when ? lol

i believe its generally assumed that since the PS4 doesn't have the "snap" feature and all of these "overlays" that the Xbone wants to put over anything using the HDMI in that its not necessary to reserve any of the GPU power while games are being played...

i dont believe this has been confirmed but nobody has even really brought up the question so it doesnt seem like there are any rumors about it either..
 
I'm not claiming to be coming into this with "raw facts" and had I help develop titles myself within the industry it would not support my claims any more than it already does. Of course, it is subjective, my opinion, I'm not claiming it's anything else.

People can say I cannot compare them but in regards to what each console is technically capable of it serves it's purpose. I can see that, perhaps you can not and I accept that.

I would actually argue the point that exclusives are a better indicator of power differences and that you cannot directly compare multiplatform games since they are often designed with parity in mind.

I believe this is wrong and a myth. If not, why would skyrim, FF13 and bayonetta happen?

Multiplatform devs will push whatever they can in the allotted time given or else they'll be far surpassed and not taken as seriously as console exclusives. IMO I could be wrong because I'm not a dev.
 
If you read my posts above you will understand what I am asking. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just that if people want to point out X1 resolutions as some flaw to the system then I can also do the same with PS4. I already made the point that it means nothing if the game looks good.
O_O What you trying to argue it's completely foolish O_O because ps4 graphic could be criticizable it means is like per like to xbone? ....
 
From the outset the average quality of poster is higher here. But I have problems with treating this forum like a singular entity instead of a whirling mass of diverse viewpoints that occasionally coincide.

I agree, but your original post mentioned "a single source of credibility". GAF definitely has that, countless sources of credibility in fact. But obviously there's many bad posts, points, misinformation etc etc posted as well, due to the diversity of posters and just the nature of opinions and information delivery in general.
 
Are you technically adept enough to understand the true implications of their words? You claim they are muddying the water but are you qualified enough to make that statement? I felt they were being pretty direct and open (more so than Sony have been regarding specs, something DF also admitted), at what point of their discussion do you feel specifically muddies the water?

You don't need to be technically adept to recognise the bullshit and obfuscation coming from Microsoft's mouths.

I only saw it just now, I'm from the UK and it was late when I posted that.

Yeah, I'm from the UK as well and I've been waiting all day for you to muster a reply.
 
Why can't people come to grips and just admit that the PS4 is stronger? Sony wouldn't be saying it and the numbers on paper wouldn't, either.
 
Because MS implemented "snap" features in their OS that require GPU resources. You can do multiple things while the game runs in the background or something like that. PS4 doesn't have snap features.

i believe its generally assumed that since the PS4 doesn't have the "snap" feature and all of these "overlays" that the Xbone wants to put over anything using the HDMI in that its not necessary to reserve any of the GPU power while games are being played...

i dont believe this has been confirmed but nobody has even really brought up the question so it doesnt seem like there are any rumors about it either..

Because there is no indication that PS4 has any reason for overlay support.

I guess that " snap" feature sucks then. a friggin 10% of the GPU ? seriously? wtf they were thinking :/
all this so I can do Skype and watch a state of a sports player while I am playing a game or something like this ? that doesn't sound right lol

on the other hand, I hope the PS4 OS isn't as stupid as the PS3 to the point I have to quite my game to pair a Bluetooth device or change small settings.
 
I guess that depends on the motivation for being overly critical. In my opinion, trolling is when people do it either with an agenda, or just for kicks. There are others who do it because they genuinely don't think much of the system and let that feeling cloud their judgment and commentary.

I guess?

That's a pretty gray area though

Would be nigh impossible to differentiate the trolling from the clouded judgements

I would really like to see some differences in wattage for these two types of memory. Such a claim from MS should be easy to corroborate or dismiss with all the evidence out there right? Can anyone point out some links that could help us learn what the power consumption characteristics are?

True I suppose although I don't see any reason why the amperage would have to increase for GDDR5 memory

The voltage is more important to RAM speeds

If you read my posts above you will understand what I am asking. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just that if people want to point out X1 resolutions as some flaw to the system then I can also do the same with PS4. I already made the point that it means nothing if the game looks good.

We are in a TECHNICAL Hardware discussion thread

There should be no subjectivity to comparing technical details

If someone had all the information across both systems and was technically savvy enough they should be able to state without a shadow of a doubt which system is overall more powerful and which is better at what specific tasks

The fact that MS's technical people are using phrases like "GDDR5 puts you in an uncomfortable position" and "balanced" is disingenuous at best and downright FUD at worst

There is subjectivity to a lot of MS's "technical" claims

How do you measure the "balance" of a system's architecture? What units is that balance in?
 
except thats not "corrected" at all...because wether you're using 18CU's for rendering or 14 for rendering and 4 for GPGPU, or 9 for rendering and 9 for GPGPU its still 18CU's available FOR GAMES...

No, its not.

And the reasons were explained long time ago.
 
The translation is shit, but from what I can gather they only discussed 2 things from the interview, and the first one doesn't even make sense. Are they saying MS will not be going lower than 10% in the future for GPU allocation for Kinect and snapped apps?

As for the second one, the grammar was so bad on the translation that I can even glean what they are trying to say.

The second one is essentially what I posted in this thread:

Just to put the whole higher resolution thing into pure bullshit category in this case....

At higher resolutions it would take even higher bandwidth than at 1080p assuming the same BPP, so if you compare the PS4 GPU against 7850/7870 you'll find the ratio of ROP's and Bandwidth are for want of a better word better "balanced"

The only thing anyone ever says about this is, yes but GPU's in PC's go above 1080p, well yes they do, but they also require more bandwidth to do so, and yet these cards have a higher fill rate and lower bandwidth than PS4.

Due to their more limited bandwidths and higher pixel fill rates, It seems reasonably simple that it's not a straightforward more than 16 ROP's is only for higher than 1080p, as taking the same example Goosen used, these cards would be bandwidth starved in the exact same scenario, so why are they there? It's almost as if BPP is actually variable and the examples they used were purposefully chosen for a specific reason. I expect to see plenty of indie games running above 1080p on PS4.

black-guy-laughing-oni4rrd.gif

Saying that cards with 32 ROP's are for higher resolutions and then talking about bandwidth limitation on a 13.65Gpixel fillrate using 164gb/s is disingenuos when a card like the 7870 has a fillrate of 38.4 Gpixels and only 156gb/s bandwidth.

Also a higher resolution would require even more bandwidth, The eurogamer article was highly disingenuous.

Regarding the first point they make, they are saying you will not get 10% back, possibly 2 or 3% in a best case scenario in my opinion, Microsoft know this and so *should* leadbetter, but the information is passed out to non-tech people as the xb1 will surely have a 10% boost in the future. Again the article is disingenuous.

I feel we've already discussed the only thing uncomfortable about GDDR5 is possibly the cost (we wouldn't know for sure as we don't know how much ESRAM will cost regarding yields etc) and more importantly, the odds of having 8gb of it in in 2013 judging from a 2009 perspective.


Wrong, besides 14+4 is still 18. Ironically we could rewrite it for multiplatform games that it now turns the scenario into:

PS4:
14 for redering

XB1:
8 for rendering (I mean if multi plat titles are using 4 CU's for GPGPU, they'll have to do the same o XB1 so it's now a 14 vs. 8 and so a 75% advantage i rendering.

We can all fudge the numbers, but disingenuous bullshit is still disingenuous bullshit.
 
]I guess that " snap" feature sucks then. a friggin 10% of the GPU ? seriously? wtf they were thinking :/
all this so I can do Skype and watch a state of a sports player while I am playing a game or something like this ? that doesn't sound right lol

on the other hand, I hope the PS4 OS isn't as stupid as the PS3 to the point I have to quite my game to pair a Bluetooth device to change small settings.

Because Kinect 2. There was a whole thread day agos.
 
I guess that " snap" feature sucks then. a friggin 10% of the GPU ? seriously? wtf they were thinking :/
all this so I can do Skype and watch a state of a sports player while I am playing a game or something like this ? that doesn't sound right lol

on the other hand, I hope the PS4 OS isn't as stupid as the PS3 to the point I have to quite my game to pair a Bluetooth device to change small settings.

MS wanted to make an all in one box and this is pretty evident.

3 gigs ram reserved for OS
10% GPU for OS
Built in camera
3 separate operating systems
etc etc
 
I guess that " snap" feature sucks then. a friggin 10% of the GPU ? seriously? wtf they were thinking :/
all this so I can do Skype and watch a state of a sports player while I am playing a game or something like this ? that doesn't sound right lol

on the other hand, I hope the PS4 OS isn't as stupid as the PS3 to the point I have to quite my game to pair a Bluetooth device to change small settings.

lol exactly...they keep bringing up this idea that "while you're waiting in a lobby" you can switch to your cable and watch sports or something....

to be honest
1. I can do that with my universal remote if i truly want to
2. if im in a multiplayer lobby long enough to get bored and want to watch TV...there is something wrong with the matchmaking process of the game...

i agree COMPLETELY on the PS4 issue...im HOPING that with the 8GB of RAM and built in multitasking that the game can be put into some sort of "suspend" mode and i will be able to switch out and perform any sort of system tasks i want in the OS...and then go back to the game...i dont need the game running in the background...just suspend it, and i certainly dont WANT gaming resources occupied with OS related tasks while im gaming...
 
I guess?

That's a pretty gray area though

Would be nigh impossible to differentiate the trolling from the clouded judgements
Indeed. Whatever the classification is, neither is healthy, right?


True I suppose although I don't see any reason why the amperage would have to increase for GDDR5 memory

The voltage is more important to RAM speeds

Agree that the voltage is more important for speed. Just wondering if there is any difference in power draw/amperage, since that's what the comment from MS seems to be alluding to. Unless I completely misinterpreted it.
 
If you mean do people posting "have you seen Titanfall" all day long is 'interesting', than of course no. I even made a sarcastic thread about that, actually, since it is a little ridiculous. But I think I just interpret and value the negativity a lot differently than some folk. Yes, I would say without a doubt the anger and criticisms of Microsoft have entered into 'excessive' territory. The problem I have is this idea that because it's excessive that the criticisms themselves don't hold the same exact amount of merit.

It doesn't bother me that it is excessive for the moment because I know the wave of resentment is temporary and directly tied to ongoing transgressions. When Microsoft ends these mistakes and starts on the road to having that trust relationship with gamers again, it will still take many months, if not years, before it full recovers. I would only suggest that this "excessive" anger is a natural and expected result of what occurred, and that Nintendo and Sony must face it in turn when slip ups occur.

I would also suggest one of the reasons it seems so overwhelming right now is that GAF has never been bigger than it is at this very moment. Specifically, huge hordes of GAFers had their accounts activated this year, and it takes a while for the mods to work through who has merits as a poster and who doesn't. As a result, the average post quality always declines for a few months after major waves of posters before rising back to the norm.

Additionally, because GAF is bigger than ever before, there is an even more predominant "echo chamber" effect wherein popular opinions form a sort of horde wherein poster after poster jumps on similar posts and overwhelm an individual, and it may appear like it's "ganging up on someone" when it's really just a numbers game... so many posters, so many people wanting to comment, so many having similar thoughts... lots of repeated ground covered.

I don't think the gaming community was ever united as strongly as when we were against the anti-consumer XBO measures, so the echo chamber was naturally louder than ever before. That said, since I feel it was earned and deserved criticism and I am of the belief everyone deserves to have their say, no matter how repetitious, it has yet to bother me.

What does bother me is ->

● A campaign of misinformation (Microsoft is at it this time; Sony was at it in 2006)
● Posters who act like they don't understand where the excessive criticism is coming from
● Posters who act like the criticism itself is overall somehow unfair
● Posters who act like the criticism is part of some great SonyGAF or HiveMind Conspiracy.
● Fucking with Consumers, a group I am obviously a part of.

These are important underlying issues, because it often leads to a great amount of disrespect shown to those with legitimate positions because some 'fans' may be frustrated with hearing the same complaints over and over.

The important thing to remember is to take a break if it is getting to you, maybe try your hand at other topics of conversation, and then return when you gather your thoughts and feel you have something to contribute. If you think the conversation is repetitive, you only add to prolonging it by engaging in whining theatrics. Would you not say this is fair?

I would indeed, only I don't think it's really "getting to me" in that sense. I actually love getting into heated debates, even when the other person is clearly biased -- perhaps in the hopes that somebody else will read it and be convinced to my side..

It's really important we as a community try to engage commentary that may be part of 'minority' views. It is important we fairly evaluate claims made by individual posters and thoughts they have. So many official topics around the gaming communities on the internet become circle jerk topics where individuals within the threads attack any negative perspective like packs of roaming hyenas. And then there are other times when we see someone getting beat up a bit and then we all pile on, which can understandably get overwhelming. That's not always fair either (although I don't have sympathy when that happens to someone who is obviously trolling).

I think people get hypersensitive when it's sooo hard to get a good conversation about a MS product going. It's so much of a relief when I can finally find a thread that isn't full of drivel. I remember one Xbox One thread where one guy in particular kept a thread going until all the negativity was gone and we were finally able to really discuss it. It happened recently in the Forza 5 thread about all the on-going announcements. Finally, people in that thread have been able to discuss the game in peace without a lot of nonsensical off-topic comments that simply derail discussion. Eventually, people get tired of this and like i said, hypersensitive, and just want to kill any negativity so that they can have a decent conversation.

There is justified negativity (which MS certainly deserves and has been getting from posters like you and others) and then there is unjustified negativity, which GAF seems to be full of right now. With the metric ton of this unjustified negativity (I'm talking about a bunch of things, including the amount of people who complain about the One, and yet never would have bought it, even without Kinect), it's understandable that people get reactive. SenjutsuSage is usually a decent poster, but the stuff he was posting that you called him out for was partially a result of this. I'm pretty sure he's just fed up, and probably can't think clearly -- because I know he most certainly can make good points under normal circumstances. Lately he seems...different. I think he would benefit by taking a break.

And speaking of trolling, people need to learn what that means :p

Used so indiscriminately around the internet.

YES! So much this. I don't even think people know what it means. I was actually going to make a thread about this in the OT. Trolling has almost become a byword for...well anything. I especially hate it when people use it when some simply does not agree with them. It's ridiculous.

The thing I don't understand is how -precisely- you're labeling the discussions. You say it is "making fun of" the company. A lot of people are bitingly sarcastic at this point, bitterly skeptical of all claims made by Microsoft. This is true. What does not seem to be true is the categorization that a majority of these discussions or the tone of these discussions is an attempt to 'make fun of' Microsoft, or earlier in 2006 Sony.

It was late when I posted that. Making fun of really wasn't the best phrase. I think you sort of got what I was saying, though.

These are consumers exercising the most important power they have: their voice. With it, they stopped a giant from trampling all over their consumer rights. With it, they slowed Sony's arrogance and forced them to consider our needs until they have become a consumer-friendly dream this go around. Now, they give us so much value with things like PS+ that $600 seems like a distant nightmare.

In the end, even if a fairly large percentage of the conversations have turned into simple reductionist ribbing, I would take that percentage if it meant keeping the overall pressure hard on these companies. And when we start measuring our steps because we don't want to offend fanboys or giant soulless conglomerations and companies, we begin to arbitrarily limit our power. It's impossible to moderate the tone of a community of millions of gamers across the internet. It is better to let the anger naturally flow where it may than caring at a few hurt feelings over video games imo

I agree. You can't stop it. I just wish that there could be some threads where positive discussion could be left in peace. If I'm excited for Kinect, please allow me to excitedly speak about the myriad of things that having Kinect could engender. Allow me to talk about it without literally 20 pages of "lol Kinect" (constant, anyway. It'll still continue for as long as the thread is alive). I just wish we could have a little more of that.

I actually don't discourage all this negativity completely. Sony would not have changed without it, and MS will not either. It's actually a good and natural thing. It serves and important function. But does it have to make people lose their minds and be hostile to other people who may not possess the same views as them? The logical falicies, name-calling, repeating ad infinitum of overused phrases (like "persecution complex" and "troll" etc. which nobody seems to know the meanings of anyway), are unacceptable, and I feel like this general consensus has allowed a good many people to say "Oh MS effed up" as an excuse for this vitriol. Again, this kind of conduct is inexcusable in any case

The reason some people act like there is some huge Sony conspiricy is because so many people allow their negetivity against MS to be an excuse for inappropriate posting behavior. There's enough of them on GAF who are much more vocal, that it really seems like a majority/conspircy at times.

IDK, it just kind of drives me from the Playstation community. To me, Xbox fanboys have always seemed rather stupid to me. Playstation fanboys, on the other hand, have always seemed more hostile. Does that make sense? I don't mind the Xbox community because its negative aspects don't quite accost me the same way. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for the PS4 and games like the Order and Killzone, but the PS community makes me go "hmm, I'm not really sure I want to be that way. I don't really want to be seen as a Sony fan because of all the implications that go with that." Besides, I'm really a fan of neither. I'm a PC guy. :)

I just think some of the memes and gifs need to stop, as well. They're pointless, and unfunny. M0dus has done a good job of articulating what's wrong with a lot of people's anti-MS posts of late. Go read his post history. He's a poster a lot of people could model. I don't know if he's an MS fan or not, but it doesn't matter. His criticisms are proper and level-headed.

EDIT: yes, Amir0x, I can compete with you for long posts as well. ;)
 
I would indeed, only I don't think it's really "getting to me" in that sense. I actually love getting into heated debates, even when the other person is clearly biased -- perhaps in the hopes that somebody else will read it and be convinced to my side..



I think people get hypersensitive when it's sooo hard to get a good conversation about a MS product going. It's so much of a relief when I can finally find a thread that isn't full of drivel. I remember one Xbox One thread where one guy in particular kept a thread going until all the negetivity was gone and we were finally able to really discuss it. It happened recently in the Forza 5 thread about all the on-going announcements. Finally, people in that thread have been able to discuss the game in peace without a lot of nonsensical off-topic comments that simply derail discusion. Eventually, people get tired of this and like i said, hypersensitive, and just want to kill any negetivity so that they can have a decent conversation.

[...]

I just think some of the memes and gifs need to stop, as well. They're pointless, and unfunny. M0dus has done a good job of articulating what's wrong with a lot of people's anit-MS posts of late. Go read his post history. He's a poster a lot of people could model. I don't know if he's an MS fan or not, but it doesn't matter. His criticisms are proper and level-headed.

EDIT: yes, Amir0x, I can compete with you for long posts as well. ;)

Thanks God the most of people appreciate those. It's the best part of neogaf, don't try to censored those masterpieces for your lack of irony, please.
 
I also think to suggest all PS4 executives are rendering at 1080p is a bit of an assumption on your part, in only recently came to light that Sony had been using PC's to demo their games at E3 (and more recent events) after all. Let's wait and see, if I'm not mistaken, Deep Down renders at 720p. Drive Club and Knack also only run at 30fps.


Huh? Is this true? I knew that Xbone had been using high-end PCs to show their games, but the last I had only heard that PS4 dev kits were being used to show PS4 games.
 
Could you explain them again then please?

No

Cerny never debunked anything. He said about the rumor, but no numbers were given about PS4 GPU by Sony, except the gflops.

And also that subjects could change without previous information.

All those +98893743897432% specs were given by VGLeaks.
 
No, its not.

And the reasons were explained long time ago.
Oh please i beg you to explain...

- what exactly do you think GPGPU is??...its still for the GAMES, its just not necessarily for GRAPHICS...

it doesn't matter HOW the developer chooses to split the CU's up for rendering/GPGPU...18/0, 0/18, 14/4, 4/14, 9/9, whatever!

those CU's are STILL being used to do things related to GAMES

Those "confirmed" facts came from VGLeaks.

Also the "14+4 balanced".

that "confirmed" slide was from 2012 before the PS4 even had 8GB of RAM...and has been talked about by Mark Cerny as being not a requirement...

even if that slide is still correct and it remains Sony's "suggestion" because using more than 14 offers diminishing returns...

developers are still free to use the CU's however they please...if they WANT to use all 18 for graphics rendering they are perfectly free to do so...
 
Seriously the 14 + 4 stuff again.....
Even if there was an hardware difference in 4 CU devs can use it for graphics they will just write an compute shader instead of an pixel shader.....
 
Agree that the voltage is more important for speed. Just wondering if there is any difference in power draw, since that's what the comment from MS seems to be alluding to. Unless I completely misinterpreted it.

Yes, since the data will be changing twice as often per clock period, power draw will be higher for GDDR5 vs DDR3. Active power is dissipated only when data changes. So if data is going to change twice as often, you're definitely going to see a higher power draw.
 
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