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[Jorok Goldblade]

Kinect? Why would I compare it to a Kinect bundle?
Won't be a "kinect" bundled with Nintendo NX to make it more expensive then needed.

Seeing that post made me think - Kinect would be pretty comparable to the Gamepad.


The console that did the best out of the gates this generation was the one that didn't come with an expensive peripheral that drove the cost of the console up by (potentially) $100 and failed to prove its value to the consumer.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

"No moving parts" and "keeping costs down" are also part of their ethos

Well, they clearly didn't follow these principles, because there's a disc drive in it and, more specifically, the cost of the gamepad.

#whiteelephant

 

[lwilliams3]

Well, they clearly didn't follow these principles, because there's a disc drive in it and, more specifically, the cost of the gamepad.

#whiteelephant

Heh, I didn't know what a "white elephant." was until now. That's unfortunately what the gamepad is at this time.

 

[StevieP]

Well, they clearly didn't follow these principles, because there's a disc drive in it and, more specifically, the cost of the gamepad.

#whiteelephant

From their own record, they don't like those either.

Gamepad is why the Wii u costs what it does

 

[QaaQer]

They have to start building the console early next year (actual silicon) if NX console version is supposed to be fall 2016, when 28nm will still be a thing & costs to produce a similar console will still be.... similar.

.

For fall 2016 release, tape out will have to be this summer. That means 28nm and 2014 amd (probably) tech. So, yeah, a ps4 equivalent console isn't going to be much cheaper. If they could go 14/16nm and hbm, then yeah #gamechanger.

 

[StevieP]

.

For fall 2016 release, tape out will have to be this summer. That means 28nm and 2014 amd (probably) tech. So, yeah, a ps4 equivalent console isn't going to be much cheaper. If they could go 14/16nm and hbm, then yeah #gamechanger.

Both of those things are currently likely not feasible, especially from a mass production standpoint.

 

[blu]

Kinect? Why would I compare it to a Kinect bundle?
Won't be a "kinect" bundled with Nintendo NX to make it more expensive then needed.

The one SKU including kinect is 410 euros. We're looking at the standard SKU.

HOWEVER, we have to meet at the middle, seems the store I was following have actually upped the price from €230 to almost €300. I never saw a word speaking about a sales on it's previously lower price though.

How about we meet at 350 - the vendor's actual MSRP?

 

[My words exactly!]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/

Are there any plans to possibly release FAST: Racing Neo to any other systems or will it stay exclusive to the Nintendo Wii U?

We currently have no plans to bring FRN to another system. However, i think a futuristic racer on a new handheld would be great.

hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

 

[Oregano]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

Oh snap! I hope that is a nice big juicy hint. If any indie dev was to have a dev kit it would be Shin'en.

Also they were sad that the 3DS couldn't handle the original FAST so it is good if the successor can handle Neo.

Might even be worth its own thread.

 

[Mpl90]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

I'm kind of divided on this

Optimistic side

Mentioning, like that, a "new handheld" is surely strange. Surely, it's not referring to New 3DS, otherwise he would've already said. Also, he could've mentioned other existing platforms that would surely support Fast (PS4/One/PC).
Shin'en is one of the most Nintendo-friendly indie developers out there, back since the Wiiware days even.
We know Nintendo has started talking with third parties since before E3, and continued at E3.
The screen(s) resolution target is known, since Matt mentioned it.

More realistic side

It could've jsut been a random mention, a sincere desire without hints at the next handheld. Just that he would really like to put the game on a future handheld.
While Shin'en is surely close to Nintendo, it's not a natural conclusion they already have heard of specs for the console, especially since they're an indie developer, after all.
Nintendo probably talked first with major third parties, and E3 should be where they talked with other bigger third parties and, while I hope they are already in talks with indie and mobile developers, it's not so sure they did that.

Yep, I'm divided on this.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

Wow, the NX first form factor could really be a handheld.

 

[GhostTrick]

Wow, the NX first form factor could really be a handheld.

I think people are really reading too much into this interview. Although I believe that NX first form factor might be a handheld.

 

[Jigorath]

All he said is that he wants to bring the game to Nintendo's next handheld. Not sure what else you can read into that other than Nintendo is making a new handheld which shouldn't really surprise anyone.

 

[jeffers]

I agree that not much to read into. The 3ds is the one that was released first and so some general expectation it's next. Also more excitement for him to bring it to a new form factor that just up port to a new home console

 

[Hermii]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

I think NX handheld and nx home console will be released really closely together. Would make sense based on how integrated they are supposed to be.

 

[AniHawk]

I think NX handheld and nx home console will be released really closely together. Would make sense based on how integrated they are supposed to be.

yeah i think both will come out the same day to be honest. that's supposed to be the big pull for this thing anyway.

 

[Entryhazard]

yeah i think both will come out the same day to be honest. that's supposed to be the big pull for this thing anyway.

If the contemporary release happens, I want the same disc format for both just for the imagery of the home console going back to cartridges

 

[Mpl90]

I think people are really reading too much into this interview. Although I believe that NX first form factor might be a handheld.

Well, I think there's no doubt that the handheld is coming and it should be the first form factor released. I think what people could see into the statement is a possible hint about NX's power. If the next handheld could get a port of the game, it would mean that it'd be quite decent, spec-wise. But still, it's true that it's possible there are overinterpretations of that tidbit from the interview. As said earlier, I'm evenly split on the matter.

 

[lwilliams3]

Oh snap! I hope that is a nice big juicy hint. If any indie dev was to have a dev kit it would be Shin'en.

Also they were sad that the 3DS couldn't handle the original FAST so it is good if the successor can handle Neo.

Might even be worth its own thread.

Matt hinted that the projected specs for Nintendo next handheld was out several months ago, so it is possible. It could also be nothing, though. Maybe someone could ask him to elaborate.

 

[Terrell]

And since that holds for every player, if nintendo launch an xbone-level NX in 2016, it will cost on par with an 2016 xbone.

The difference being that Microsoft and Sony both see no reason to price-reduce at the moment. Because the reason they made their consoles what they are is because they're the most likely to reduce in cost and make them money per console sold, something that majorly burned the both of them on their books last generation.

Nintendo's not in their position. A break-even device for them is what should be aimed for and might force MS and Sony to lower their prices, but they'll be loathe to do it unless they're forced to.

yeah i think both will come out the same day to be honest. that's supposed to be the big pull for this thing anyway.

Yep. The overlap in handheld and console ownership is rather small, especially nowadays when people feel more comfortable than ever with a single piece of hardware for their gaming requirements, so there's little risk that selling both at the same time will cannibalize each other, as some have previously proposed.

 

[PdotMichael]

A PS4 tier console in 2016/2017 would be cheaper than the PS4 at the same time. Sony is forced to run basically the same production lines for years while Nintendo could buy and produce more efficiently working components which provide a better performance for the same price.

 

[mrklaw]

If the contemporary release happens, I want the same disc format for both just for the imagery of the home console going back to cartridges

That does have me wondering how they'll handle things if games run on both platforms. Will you be literally able to put an 'NX Handheld' cart in the home console and play it? Will it download the NX Home console version of the game but need the cart as a key?

I like the cross-platform concept but I'm not sure I want the home console version to be limited because of memory card restrictions on the handheld side.

 

[Nibel]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

Handheld in fall 2016, console in spring-summer 2017

 

[Terrell]

That does have me wondering how they'll handle things if games run on both platforms. Will you be literally able to put an 'NX Handheld' cart in the home console and play it? Will it download the NX Home console version of the game but need the cart as a key?

I like the cross-platform concept but I'm not sure I want the home console version to be limited because of memory card restrictions on the handheld side.

If they do it smart and stop using ROM chips to achieve this, there's no restriction.
NAND flash storage, which can be read faster and hold more data than Blu-Ray ATM, has WORM (Write Once Read Many) copy and over-write protection methods that are not easily cracked. Using ROMs at this point is just a pointless exercise, since no one manufactures them in higher capacities needed for storage capacity purposes like they do with NAND RAM chips. ROM chips are designed now to be firmware logic chips and nothing more, so building them at higher capacities was never considered.

 

[Portugeezer]

Fast Racing Neo interview:
http://www.wearejustgamers.com/inte...hinen-and-lead-developer-for-fast-racing-neo/


hmmmmm
Also bodes well if Wii U games can be ported to the new handheld (Hyrule Warriors excluded ;p)

If it's a handheld, I could see WiiU-like graphics at 480 or 540p being doable.

 

[Turrican3]

NAND flash storage

What about the production costs?
Honest question: I have absolutely no clue about that, but I'd like to know how favourable it would compare to traditional cartridges like 3DS or other optical media like WiiU/PS4/XB1.

 

[Terrell]

What about the production costs?
Honest question: I have absolutely no clue about that, but I'd like to know how favourable it would compare to traditional cartridges like 3DS or other optical media like WiiU/PS4/XB1.

The cost is usually cheaper than the ROM chips used in 3DS with a higher capacity. It's still more expensive than discs if you end up outsourcing production to another company, but cost has gone down considerably, as all the major players in NAND chip production are currently sitting on a surplus of chips due to over-producing them because they can't just shut down their production lines.

They'd be usable and sellable to a universal hardware architecture, bringing "cross-buy" to the physical copy itself and thus the production cost could be accounted for as being divisible by the amount of hardware platforms the game will be playable on. Which puts it even closer to the same production cost as a disc for a singular platform.

It's the best way I can think of to continue with physical copies in a multi-hardware ecosystem, and it's got enough selling points to make everyone happy.

 

[cws]

Handheld in fall 2016, console in spring-summer 2017

I think for the western market it would be more important to launch the console in fall with Zelda NX. Their handhelds have been doing fine with Q1 releases for a while now so if they can't do both at the same time I think the console will hit first.

Expecting both form factors Holiday season 2016 though.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

I think for the western market it would be more important to launch the console in fall with Zelda NX. Their handhelds have been doing fine with Q1 releases for a while now so if they can't do both at the same time I think the console will hit first.

Expecting both form factors Holiday season 2016 though.

Yeah, I could see Japan getting the handheld first and the console a few months later. The west would get the console first and the handheld shortly after.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

The cost is usually cheaper than the ROM chips used in 3DS with a higher capacity. It's still more expensive than discs if you end up outsourcing production to another company, but cost has gone down considerably, as all the major players in NAND chip production are currently sitting on a surplus of chips due to over-producing them because they can't just shut down their production lines.

They'd be usable and sellable to a universal hardware architecture, bringing "cross-buy" to the physical copy itself and thus the production cost could be accounted for as being divisible by the amount of hardware platforms the game will be playable on. Which puts it even closer to the same production cost as a disc for a singular platform.

It's the best way I can think of to continue with physical copies in a multi-hardware ecosystem, and it's got enough selling points to make everyone happy.

I'm sure Nintendo would love to have cartridges back.

Almost as cheap as optical discs. Faster than Bluray too. It's like everything Nintendo would have wanted when they were making the 64.

 

[Turrican3]

The cost is usually cheaper than the ROM chips used in 3DS with a higher capacity.
[...]
They'd be usable and sellable to a universal hardware architecture, bringing "cross-buy" to the physical copy itself

Hmm, being able to share the same media would be a very interesting "side effect", if we assume that NX will turn out to be a family of products able to run the same games, that is.

Since we're here, may I ask what kind of speed should we expect?
Knowing Nintendo I guess they would *love* to reduce loading times as much as possible!

EDIT beaten ^_^

 

[Mithos]

The one SKU including kinect is 410 euros. We're looking at the standard SKU.


How about we meet at 350 - the vendor's actual MSRP?

The €300 pricepoint already kills what I wrote, sadly means no NX 2016 for me, unless Nintendo goes for selling at a loss..

 

[Lady Siara]

My current thinking is that they'll accomplish the handheld and console experience with one portable device. I'm picturing a fairly bulky and durable tablet with a video out. Plus, this sort of form factor is ripe for experimental accessory selling, Nintendo's calling card.

However, Nintendo's home consoles have been light and travel friendly (the Gamecube even had a handle) so who knows.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

NX : Cartridges Revenge

 

[Turrican3]

Yeah, I could see Japan getting the handheld first and the console a few months later. The west would get the console first and the handheld shortly after.

...and software compatibility would allow for simultaneous worldwide release nevertheless (NX home in the west, NX portable in Japan).

Sounds good to me.

 

[spekkeh]

My current thinking is that they'll accomplish the handheld and console experience with one portable device. I'm picturing a fairly bulky and durable tablet with a video out. Plus, this sort of form factor is ripe for experimental accessory selling, Nintendo's calling card.

Same here, it would also tie in well with their QoL devices, whatever they may be (could connect to ambient living sensors, or feature a full fitness suite). Though I wonder how they're going to solve the lack of productivity software suites. I think such a tablet should be able to partially supplant the need for a regular tablet, otherwise people don't want two similar devices if they can already play games on their no doubt finer looking Apple tablet.

 

[Oregano]

Matt hinted that the projected specs for Nintendo next handheld was out several months ago, so it is possible. It could also be nothing, though. Maybe someone could ask him to elaborate.

Well I imagine big publishers would get that info before indies so it would be a good sign if indies were already informed.

Also interesting that when talking about the success of the first FAST Manfred says all their games on Nintendo platforms were commercial success. Kinda singling something out there...

 

[Terrell]

Hmm, being able to share the same media would be a very interesting "side effect", if we assume that NX will turn out to be a family of products able to run the same games, that is.

Since we're here, may I ask what kind of speed should we expect?
Knowing Nintendo I guess they would *love* to reduce loading times as much as possible!

EDIT beaten ^_^

The fastest available Blu-Ray speed is 16x, which has a data rate of 72MB/second.
You can get a $20 32GB SD card (within spitting distance of Blu-Ray storage capacity) that can read 60MB/second. Factor out the retailer and manufacturer margin on this card, and you can see that the cost on these things is near nothing.

And that's an SD card that likely costs pennies to make. Get a $35 SD card (which again, is mostly margin in its retail price) and that same capacity hits 95MB/second. And that's not even the fastest they can go.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Matt hinted that the projected specs for Nintendo next handheld was out several months ago, so it is possible. It could also be nothing, though. Maybe someone could ask him to elaborate.

Didn't he also hint that it would be 720p res.?

 

[Turrican3]

You can get a $20 32GB SD card [...]

Wait, so basically we're talking about the same (or something very close to that) tech that goes in the SD cards?
Somehow - don't ask me why - I tought it was something totally different.

Thanks for the explanation anyway.

 

[Terrell]

Wait, so basically we're talking about the same (or something very close to that) tech that goes in the SD cards?
Somehow - don't ask me why - I tought it was something totally different.

Thanks for the explanation anyway.

Yeah, all SD cards are basically NAND flash chips with a small controller board.

 

[Rodin]

From their own record, they don't like those either.

Gamepad is why the Wii u costs what it does

Gamepad is most definitely a factor, but it's not the only one.

They'd be usable and sellable to a universal hardware architecture, bringing "cross-buy" to the physical copy itself and thus the production cost could be accounted for as being divisible by the amount of hardware platforms the game will be playable on. Which puts it even closer to the same production cost as a disc for a singular platform.

It's the best way I can think of to continue with physical copies in a multi-hardware ecosystem, and it's got enough selling points to make everyone happy.

I don't know if that's doable, but they can use the same slightly modified cartridge in a bigger capacity for the home. In any case using discs this time would be dumb for a number of reasons, so i just hope they use cartridges. The "how" isn't really an issue.

Didn't he also hint that it would be 720p res.?

Higher than many people think (480p) and lower than some people hope (720p). 540p sounds like the logical conclusion.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Gamepad is most definitely a factor, but it's not the only one.



Higher than many people think (480p) and lower than some people hope (720p). 540p sounds like the logical conclusion.

Maybe some people were hoping for 1080p?

 

[Terrell]

I don't know if that's doable, but they can use the same slightly modified cartridge in a bigger capacity for the home. In any case using discs this time would be dumb for a number of reasons, so i just hope they use cartridges. The "how" isn't really an issue.

It actually makes more sense to do it that way that splitting the physical copies made available as distinct for each platform, especially if the games share enough assets anyways.

And just as importantly, it sells Nintendo's idea of their platform not being hardware-dependent.

 

[joesiv]

The fastest available Blu-Ray speed is 16x, which has a data rate of 72MB/second.
You can get a $20 32GB SD card (within spitting distance of Blu-Ray storage capacity) that can read 60MB/second. Factor out the retailer and manufacturer margin on this card, and you can see that the cost on these things is near nothing.

And that's an SD card that likely costs pennies to make. Get a $35 SD card (which again, is mostly margin in its retail price) and that same capacity hits 95MB/second. And that's not even the fastest they can go.

I have a hard time believing SD cards/nand is anywhere near as cheap as a disk to produce. Its easy to find bluray disks for 50c, which would include any markup/profit for all involved. $20 for similar SD card retail is a pretty big difference!

Don't get me wrong, I would actually love the return of carts, but I think you are misguided. Also its not just the price of nand that you have to consider, build quality is also one. Nintendo (thankfully) build robust products, the quality of compnentz in cheap SD cards is nowhere near where Nintendo would go.

Edit, if you look at the historical cost to produce a n64 cart, it was around $15, whereas the playstation disks where around $1, hmmm seems similar to what you are talking about. Mind you capacity has cought up, but speed has potentially went down (with respect to competitive advantage compared to disk), unless you buy faster nand and controller, which then puts us back to n64/PS comparisons...

 

[lwilliams3]

Gamepad is most definitely a factor, but it's not the only one.

I think a replacement Gamepad is well over $100. While there may more things to factor, I have a hard time believing that another individual part was nearly as significant.

Maybe some people were hoping for 1080p?

It is possible. If I recall correctly, the OP of the thread he posted that was talking about 1080p. Either way, I don't believe anyone suggested a resolution less than 480p, so around 540p may be a safe bet.

 

[Terrell]

I have a hard time believing SD cards/nand is anywhere near as cheap as a disk to produce. Its easy to find bluray disks for 50c, which would include any markup/profit for all involved. $20 for similar SD card retail is a pretty big difference!

Don't get me wrong, I would actually love the return of carts, but I think you are misguided. Also its not just the price of nand that you have to consider, build quality is also one. Nintendo (thankfully) build robust products, the quality of compnentz in cheap SD cards is nowhere near where Nintendo would go.

It's a documented fact that NAND chips are recycled in SD cards on a semi-frequent basis, even in the highest-end most expensive pro-grade SD cards. And the controllers are pretty much nothing. So no, I'm not misguided.

ROM chips have not increased in capacity at the same rate as NAND, but costs have decreased significantly. Discs have reached their cost-effective speed and capacity plateau for the conceivable future. Comparing 1996 to 2015 is a bit of a joke, especially when the tech being discussed is subject to Moore's Law, while optical media is not.

 

[joesiv]

It's a documented fact that NAND chips are recycled in SD cards on a semi-frequent basis, even in the highest-end most expensive pro-grade SD cards. So no, I'm not misguided.

Sure, bur what is the cost of 32GB of nand? I know its cheap, but is it cheap enough? Adding even $10 to the price of games is suicide, more is even worse.

 

[Terrell]

Sure, bur what is the cost of 32GB of nand? I know its cheap, but is it cheap enough? Adding even $10 to the price of games is suicide, more is even worse.

You think half of a $20-35 SD card is actual manufacturing cost? That's pretty absurd.

 

[bachikarn]

I think a replacement Gamepad is well over $100. While there may more things to factor, I have a hard time believing that another individual part was nearly as significant.



It is possible. If I recall correctly, the OP of the thread he posted that was talking about 1080p. Either way, I don't believe anyone suggested a resolution less than 480p, so around 540p may be a safe bet.

540p for the handheld and 1080p for the console makes a lot of sense. Makes the scaling between the two very easy.