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Dishonored 2 testers are already combining powers in ways Arkane hadn’t predicted

XAL

Member
Chaos levels dependant on player actions is still a thing, you're an assassin but you're not the type of assassin like the ones who brutally murdered the empress. You're different from that. You do however still condemn your victims to arguably worse fates based if you choose nonlethal routes. The game never actually encourages you to play lethally. If anything, it does the opposite by almost immediately presenting alternatives to straight up brutally murdering everything in your path. The flaw was that there was less tools to do things nonlethally the main things being sleep darts and choking. Apparently that's something they're really aiming to fix with this installment, (non lethal air takedowns for instance is a godsend).

A lot of the people you're targeting deserve to fucking die. The game gives you a TON of lethal options.

Offing these repulsive people results in everything turning to complete shit? What.

See guards abusing people? If you kill them you condemn society. What.

Their karma system is complete schlock.

I played dishonored 1 doing the non-lethal "worse than death?" route. And I resented that me killing a few people would ruin the ending when the fates are hardly dissimilar. If anything slitting some of these people's throats is more kind than the fates they were sent to via the non-lethal route.
 

Riposte

Member
Have you two never played the first game at all? Genuinely curious. I mean, "limited level design" especially is sort of a major giveaway that you know quite little about the series.

Why do you think I called the level design "limited"? I didn't say the word "limited", I said under-designed. The point is you have all of these cool powers and the level design and the enemies don't challenge you on it at all (except, kind of, Daud), almost as if making the two things work together was an afterthought. They may have very well spent a lot of time on the placement of routes and such, but they give an unlimited warp that lets you literally skip over it. The combat is fairly uninteresting until you turn it into a combo video to post on youtube, because the enemies tend to be that hopeless, making them sandbags at best. So in a situation where the powers you give to the player greatly out paces the structure of the game, why wouldn't you just say you didn't anticipate this lack of balance and call it "emergent gameplay". Would Thief be a better game if it also had Blink tapped onto it? All the ways it would be broken would certainly seem more "emergent".

Also that masquerade level was cool, but it's also the only one of its kind so I don't see the point of lecturing me about what I know about the game based on it.
 

cmChimera

Member
I loved the first Dishonored, but hated how the game made me feel like I was playing the wrong way when I killed. The game gives you a 101 ways to use powers to kill, but then acts like you shouldn't use them. At least give lethal and non-lethal version of powers like Infamous.
 

Aikidoka

Member
I'm really looking forward to the demo at Brthesda's show. Really loved the first game.

A lot of the people you're targeting deserve to fucking die. The game gives you a TON of lethal options.

Offing these repulsive people results in everything turning to complete shit? What.

See guards abusing people? If you kill them you condemn society. What.

Their karma system is complete schlock.

I played dishonored 1 doing the non-lethal "worse than death?" route. And I resented that me killing a few people would ruin the ending when the fates are hardly dissimilar. If anything slitting some of these people's throats is more kind than the fates they were sent to via the non-lethal route.


What's karma got to do with it, really? By killing a lot you are piling dead bodies in a city that's in the midst of a terrible plague. Of course that is going to cause the city to get even worse - same thing happened with the bubonic plague when people weren't consciousness of hygiene.
 

ryseing

Member
Chaos levels dependant on player actions is still a thing, you're an assassin but you're not the type of assassin like the ones who brutally murdered the empress. You're different from that. You do however still condemn your victims to arguably worse fates based if you choose nonlethal routes. The game never actually encourages you to play lethally. If anything, it does the opposite by almost immediately presenting alternatives to straight up brutally murdering everything in your path. The flaw was that there was less tools to do things nonlethally the main things being sleep darts and choking. Apparently that's something they're really aiming to fix with this installment, (non lethal air takedowns for instance is a godsend).

Exactly- the game encourages you to play lethally by restricting the majority of the tools to that playstyle. It's good to hear that Arkane is adding more non lethal options but they need to trash the karma system altogether. It's unnecessary baggage and distracts from the core of the game.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
A lot of the people you're targeting deserve to fucking die. The game gives you a TON of lethal options.

Offing these repulsive people results in everything turning to complete shit? What.

See guards abusing people? If you kill them you condemn society. What.

Their karma system is complete schlock.
Remember this is supposed to be a kingdom worth saving, if you win, those guards, they'd suddenly be YOUR guards or more importantly Emily's guards, so why go around killing them? And again, none of your targets get off without a hitch, at all, quite the opposite, death is too easy. The first target, you brand him in the face with a mark that means he's immediately ostracized from the city. Lady Boyle definitely doesn't get off without a hitch either.

Why do you think I called the level design "limited"? I didn't say the word "limited", I said under-designed. The point is you have all of these cool powers and the level design and the enemies don't challenge you on it at all (except, kind of, Daud), almost as if making the two things work together was an afterthought. They may have very well spent a lot of time on the placement of routes and such, but they give an unlimited warp that lets you literally skip over it. The combat is fairly uninteresting until you turn it into a combo video to post on youtube, because the enemies tend to be that hopeless, making them sandbags at best. So in a situation where the powers you give to the player greatly out paces the structure of the game, why wouldn't you just say you didn't anticipate this lack of balance and call it "emergent gameplay". Would Thief be a better game if it also had Blink tapped onto it? All the ways it would be broken would certainly seem more "emergent".

Also that masquerade level was cool, but it's also the only one of its kind so I don't see the point of lecturing me about what I know about the game based on it.
The game doesn't have a singular linear structure like other games, it's full of mini sandbox levels and yes, it's incredibly emergent in the way the world reacts to your actions as well as the sheer amount of ways you can complete every level, you're not breaking the level because all the systems work as intended, blink for instance gives an advantage to the player compared to guards who don't have normal powers, (compared to the assassins in the later game segments), it's not a lack of balance because Dishonored is not trying to depower the player, Dishonored was designed with the idea that the player is the most powerful entity in the level at any given moment.

Exactly- the game encourages you to play lethally by restricting the majority of the tools to that playstyle. It's good to hear that Arkane is adding more non lethal options but they need to trash the karma system altogether. It's unnecessary baggage and distracts from the core of the game.
The chaos system is part of the core of the game and encourages replayability. The way it's programmed makes perfect sense too, (if Corvo kills 50% of the population the game the game gets into an irreversible state where you get one of the high chaos endings), it's not solely dependant on kill count but also on many other player actions as well like side objectives. It seems you want zero consequences for your actions which isn't the point of the game at all.
 

True Fire

Member
They should see some of the shit Bravely Default/Second players have come up with. There are so many ways to break the game it's almost a game in itself.
 
The gameplay is looking so good, I hope there's not that same big problem that I hated in one.
I mean, you have all these incredibly flashy, cool and varied ways of killing people, but you get a bad ending if your approach is killing-focused.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
The gameplay is looking so good, I hope there's not that same big problem that I hated in one.
I mean, you have all these incredibly flashy, cool and varied ways of killing people, but you get a bad ending if your approach is killing-focused.

Yeah well generally killing half a city's population and gaining power by murdering everyone in your path doesnt lead to positive results.
 

Mexen

Member
Gonna take this at face value and be excited about the possibilities. I just hope that the lack of knowledge of power combinations doesn't lead to game breaking bugs. But I suppose that's what testers are there for.
You have my attention, Arkane.
 

Deadbeat

Banned
A lot of the people you're targeting deserve to fucking die. The game gives you a TON of lethal options.

Offing these repulsive people results in everything turning to complete shit? What.

See guards abusing people? If you kill them you condemn society. What.

Their karma system is complete schlock.

I played dishonored 1 doing the non-lethal "worse than death?" route. And I resented that me killing a few people would ruin the ending when the fates are hardly dissimilar. If anything slitting some of these people's throats is more kind than the fates they were sent to via the non-lethal route.
Whats really dumb is you are given the heart of commentary and it tells you who is good and bad most of the time yet that matters fuck all when killing people.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Whats really dumb is you are given the heart of commentary and it tells you who is good and bad most of the time yet that matters fuck all when killing people.
There are smarter ways to deal with people than death.
Seriously we condemn Lady Boyle to a life of miserable confinement and let a dude infatuated with her kidnap her, and are told that she lives an unhappy life and dies at an old age drowning in misery. There are some really fucked up implications there. ._.
 

Deadbeat

Banned
There are smarter ways to deal with people than death.
Seriously we condemn Lady Boyle to a life of miserable confinement and let a dude infatuated with her kidnap her, and are told that she lives an unhappy life and dies at an old age drowning in misery. There are some really fucked up implications there. ._.
I loved that choice because I knew the internet would have a huge hissy fit over it. They need to make more choices like that just to set tumblr on fire.

Maybe death is the correct answer sometimes. Maybe reward missions with that attitude. Or just make it 'if bodycount > X, player.characterstatus = "evil" like the first game.
 

Mifec

Member
There are smarter ways to deal with people than death.
Seriously we condemn Lady Boyle to a life of miserable confinement and let a dude infatuated with her kidnap her, and are told that she lives an unhappy life and dies at an old age drowning in misery. There are some really fucked up implications there. ._.

Or
having the Pendeltons work in their own mines, after they get their faces disfigured with acid and their tongues cut out, or finding the High Overseer as a Weeper in the flooded district if you branded him.
 

XAL

Member
There are smarter ways to deal with people than death.
Seriously we condemn Lady Boyle to a life of miserable confinement and let a dude infatuated with her kidnap her, and are told that she lives an unhappy life and dies at an old age drowning in misery. There are some really fucked up implications there. ._.

Condemning her to be raped for the rest of her existence is good karma and the land will prosper, and executing her quickly and mercifully is bad karma and society will lie in ruin.

ok Arkane.

Death is the smartest solution, they no longer exist. Letting them live in bad circumstances gives them chance to escape and get revenge = not "smart".
 

Mifec

Member
Condemning her to be raped for the rest of her existence is good karma and the land will prosper, and executing her quickly and mercifully is bad karma and society will lie in ruin.

ok Arkane.

Death is the smartest solution, they no longer exist. Letting them live in bad circumstances gives them chance to escape and get revenge = not "smart".

Killing her leads to another corpse which leads to more rats which leads to more plague which leads to more weepers which leads to a feeling of hopelessness that drives people to be cruel :^)
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Condemning her to be raped for the rest of her existence is good karma and the land will prosper, and executing her quickly and mercifully is bad karma and society will lie in ruin.

ok Arkane.

Death is the smartest solution, they no longer exist. Letting them live in bad circumstances gives them chance to escape and get revenge = not "smart".
Lesser evil, not good karma. The Outsider specifically tells you what the two alternatives are, death or a life that she learns to regret.
 

Zolo

Member
Lesser evil, not good karma. The Outsider specifically tells you what the two alternatives are, death or a life that she learns to regret.

Yeah. The bar specifically says chaos; not karma. It's not like killing a few people in the level gets you high chaos anyway, so feel free to. If I remember right, you actually have to kill quite a good amount of people to get high chaos.
 

ArjanN

Member
Condemning her to be raped for the rest of her existence is good karma and the land will prosper, and executing her quickly and mercifully is bad karma and society will lie in ruin.

ok Arkane.

Death is the smartest solution, they no longer exist. Letting them live in bad circumstances gives them chance to escape and get revenge = not "smart".

It never says it's good karma though, it just high and low chaos.

The non-lethal options for the main targets in the first game were basically all fates worse than death, but that was kind of the point.

The complaints about the ending being tied to the gameplay never made much sense to me because or one, it's pretty debatable which ending was 'good' and which was 'bad as the final level is pretty different depending on that' and IMO the game is also designed to be played more than once anyway.
 
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