PulseONE
Member
You and I agree on stuff
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Diversity in gaming: What's your dream?
- Thread starter orthodoxy1095
- Start date
You and I agree on stuff
not_so_special
Banned
as much a like diversity i like good games too..never alone is a mediocre game
TatteredHat
Member
I want less games set in America and less middle-aged white men as main protagonists, I don't care what alternatives the industry comes up with as long as it's not that.
RipperGrim
Member
I want people to stop worrying about it so much, I mean this for devs and publishers as well, people should just make games with whatever protagonists they want for no other reason than they just want them in it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean
for it to be better?
There are uncountable stories about different peoples, places, and cultures waiting to be told. Its time we stopped returning to the same well of a dozen or so
for it to be better?
There are uncountable stories about different peoples, places, and cultures waiting to be told. Its time we stopped returning to the same well of a dozen or so
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh yeah, this is also a huge beef of mine. Its incredibly frustrating really. Some of my formative game experiences were the early Myst titles, which dropped you into a gorgeous environment and demanded that you learn how to interact with it.
King of Custard
Member
I want it not to be so noticeable it totally breaks immersion, other races and religions exist in the real world make them exist in games too.
ShinMaruku
Member
Or we have truly international teams that can use each other's strengths.
Speaking specifically of character diversity, i'd say they need to exploit the concept Codename S.T.E.A.M. introduced: Literature characters and folk tale heroes.
Expanding this game to a global level could be very cool, sure the first one is american characters, but sequels could take teams from other countries and would have rich mythologies and folklore to pick from.
Expanding this game to a global level could be very cool, sure the first one is american characters, but sequels could take teams from other countries and would have rich mythologies and folklore to pick from.
GenericUser
Member
I've always been a fan of the free market. So I'd say: let things flow. Just let people make the games they want to make and see if they can get other people to buy them.
No need for forced diversity.
No need for forced diversity.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Who here is advocating forcing anything? These ideas are part of the free market. People are sharing ideas for games they'd be interested in buying.
Hyperzephyrian
Banned
I think it's more closely modeled after Himalayan countries like Nepal or Tibet. (I know, Tibet's not an independent country, but you know what I mean).
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I haven't thought much about this since S.T.E.A.M.'s art and music put me off, but this is true. Besides having games just generally set in diverse locations with diverse protagonists, it'd be amazing to actually have games based on foreign literature and myth.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I brought this up in another thread, but I'd love to see the next Pokemon game based off Africa. We've had New York, and France, so it seems likely Gen VII will probably take place outside of Japan yet again, and I think Africa would be an amazing basis for a Region. There's tons of diverse biomes to explore, lots of potential animals and mythological figures to base the Pokemon around, etc. One cool theme I'd love to see explored is the origin of civilization, which would go well with Africa since it's considered to be where humanity originated if I recall. We have tons of lore in the games for Pokemon---God himself is a Pokemon, basically---but I wanna see the games touch upon where humans came from in that world, and how they fit in.
When I've brought this up before, a lot of people bring up the usual "Africa is just full of poverty and war!", as a reason to why Game Freak would never do this. But I think that's being pessimistic and treating Africa unfairly...Japan has problems with nationalism and a struggle between eastern and western social norms, America has issues with social inequality and racism, and France has their issues as well, yet Game Freak focused on the positives of those countries, rather than the negatives, overall. I don't see why the same couldn't be done with Africa.
Now, I would like to see perhaps some nuanced themes about issues facing Africa---like touching upon the struggle between the different cultures, environmental destruction due to industries like mining and such, worked in to the plot through metaphorical situations. I've always found the Pokemon games, despite not being story-based too much, to have some interesting messages sprinkled out through the games---usually through the NPC dialouge rather than the main plot---and I'd be interested in seeing how Game Freak would handle it.
I can understand the concern about "sanitizing" things, the worry that showcasing Africa and only focusing on stuff like its diverse culture, wildlife, and ecology might be detrimental or offensive since there are definitely issues facing the continent as a whole, but then I think, hey, Africa has a ton of stuff to be proud about, and a game shouldn't shy away from focusing on the positives.
When I've brought this up before, a lot of people bring up the usual "Africa is just full of poverty and war!", as a reason to why Game Freak would never do this. But I think that's being pessimistic and treating Africa unfairly...Japan has problems with nationalism and a struggle between eastern and western social norms, America has issues with social inequality and racism, and France has their issues as well, yet Game Freak focused on the positives of those countries, rather than the negatives, overall. I don't see why the same couldn't be done with Africa.
Now, I would like to see perhaps some nuanced themes about issues facing Africa---like touching upon the struggle between the different cultures, environmental destruction due to industries like mining and such, worked in to the plot through metaphorical situations. I've always found the Pokemon games, despite not being story-based too much, to have some interesting messages sprinkled out through the games---usually through the NPC dialouge rather than the main plot---and I'd be interested in seeing how Game Freak would handle it.
I can understand the concern about "sanitizing" things, the worry that showcasing Africa and only focusing on stuff like its diverse culture, wildlife, and ecology might be detrimental or offensive since there are definitely issues facing the continent as a whole, but then I think, hey, Africa has a ton of stuff to be proud about, and a game shouldn't shy away from focusing on the positives.
Man, I hope ZoE3 happens since the concepts seemed to be more focused on the Egyptian God influences. Egyptian Gods reincarnated as mechs, jumping through timelines where both versions of Anubis are playable (my own speculating) would be fucking ill.
I want to see a Brasil GTA/Sleeping Dogs/Yakuza style game.
More mythos based games from slept on cultures.
Mongolian or Roman Musou game.
I want to see a Brasil GTA/Sleeping Dogs/Yakuza style game.
More mythos based games from slept on cultures.
Mongolian or Roman Musou game.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
One thing I was thinking about just now was language. How should these games we're dreaming up be done? If you set a game in Brazil, should it be in English? If the game is in Mexico does it really make sense to be in English? I know AC: Unity was in English but had a French track. What's the best way to do this?
Lot of awesome ideas here. I'd love to see this attempted too.
Stereogatari
Banned
Oh man OP already mentioned my Turkish dreams 
.
Well I wouldn't mind Classical Iran and Mughal India either.
. Well I wouldn't mind Classical Iran and Mughal India either.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Classic Iran would be killer awesome. It would be such a fantastic change from the modern portrayal of Iran as an antagonistic force in FPS games.Oh man OP already mentioned my Turkish dreams
Well I wouldn't mind Classical Iran and Mughal India either.
Is there any particular game you want set in Turkey?
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
Oh, man. Day one.
TC, I agree with your points. I would welcome diversity with depth, as many others have stated. Immersion in another culture offers so many opportunities for compelling human experiences. Re-skinning grizzled white guy v32 is a start toward representation, but hopefully the endgame is something more profound & meaningful.
I mean, there is so much interesting stuff in the world, and gaming too often focuses on such a small subset of that totality.
Suggestions like an RPG in Turkey, or basing a game on African folklore... I would buy the hell out of those games.
Stereogatari
Banned
Offff that's a tough question. I suppose Tomb Raider (classic Tomb Raider) with Lara visiting Ancient tombs and ruins and such in Turkey, with some of Istanbul and the natural geography for good measure.
I wouldn't want a GTA, my view of Turkey is too idealised for that
. Other than that a JRPG set in Ancient Anatolia, Ottoman Turkey or Republican Turkey would be a dream. Ancient Anatolian or Ottoman JRPG would have more fantastical elements, whereas one set in Republican Turkey I imagine to be more Persona-like, focusing on young people issues.
In some actual JRPGs we get little trinkets of Japanese culture, so I'd love a JRPG style but with Turkish cultural trinkets infused in the game.
Also I'd love a game with artwork based on Turco-Persian miniature paintings, in a similar way to the way Apotheon used Ancient Greek artwork as inspiration:
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Do you actually believe in the Free Market?
The one where it's cool for 8 year olds to be maimed for life doing dangerous work because they're really cheap to employ, and where dumping toxic chemicals directly into the water tables is fine because it costs so much less than after treatment?
Not exactly the same but:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/95700/
Free too.
Stereogatari
Banned
Shiiiiiiiiiiit, thanks for this will have to check it out.
I'm not clamoring for "diverse games" so much as I'd like ordinary mainstream games to give their existing characters and worlds more depth by making better use of their existing ethnicities. Language for starters. Both player characters and NPCs should actually use languages appropriate for a given situation - a French character talking to another French character would speak French, Russians would speak Russian, etc. Not everyone would understand everyone else. The player would get subtitles, but only if the player character understands the language being spoken. Sometimes you'd have one character translating what another is saying.
AAA games are getting dubbed to a bunch of languages anyway, so I don't think it should be a ton of work or cost to do this right. Just use a primary, multilingual crew of actors to do the original version of the game where characters use setting-appropriate languages, and for the yokel markets / players that insist on 100% dubs, have dubs done for the characters that aren't already speaking the desired language in the definitive version. Most importantly, always offer the player the choice of the original sound.
AAA games are getting dubbed to a bunch of languages anyway, so I don't think it should be a ton of work or cost to do this right. Just use a primary, multilingual crew of actors to do the original version of the game where characters use setting-appropriate languages, and for the yokel markets / players that insist on 100% dubs, have dubs done for the characters that aren't already speaking the desired language in the definitive version. Most importantly, always offer the player the choice of the original sound.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I don't know how I missed this suggestion. Genius idea.
Definitely interesting ideas all around. I think Ancient or Modern-day Turkey would probably be an easier setting for creative opportunities. With Ancient Anatolia, you're less bound by detailed history and have more room for fantasy and creativity. With Modern Turkey, the future is unwritten, so something a like Tomb Raider-esque setting or a game that deals with Turkish youth would be very plausible.Offff that's a tough question. I suppose Tomb Raider (classic Tomb Raider) with Lara visiting Ancient tombs and ruins and such in Turkey, with some of Istanbul and the natural geography for good measure.
I wouldn't want a GTA, my view of Turkey is too idealised for that
Other than that a JRPG set in Ancient Anatolia, Ottoman Turkey or Republican Turkey would be a dream. Ancient Anatolian or Ottoman JRPG would have more fantastical elements, whereas one set in Republican Turkey I imagine to be more Persona-like, focusing on young people issues.
In some actual JRPGs we get little trinkets of Japanese culture, so I'd love a JRPG style but with Turkish cultural trinkets infused in the game.
Also I'd love a game with artwork based on Turco-Persian miniature paintings, in a similar way to the way Apotheon used Ancient Greek artwork as inspiration:
The idea of presenting Ottoman Turkey as being "fantastical" is a bit more uneasy to me, particularly the 19th and 18th century, since it was filled with the systemic eradication of my ancestors.
Stereogatari
Banned
Obviously the whole "fantastical" theme comes to my mind from the mise-en-scene, architecture, clothing etc. of the Ottoman Empire. Orientalism, Exotic places etc. it occupies the same space in my mind as fantastical settings.
What bothers me lately is the term "localization".
Why? All it implies is "we'll take your game, and make it fit our local worldview". It used to be horrific in the past, and it has improved , but from time to time, I see unbelievable shit in games. Name changes for instance. What the fuck.
A translation is already "treasonous" enough, we shouldn't encourage blatant warping of the work on top.
Why? All it implies is "we'll take your game, and make it fit our local worldview". It used to be horrific in the past, and it has improved , but from time to time, I see unbelievable shit in games. Name changes for instance. What the fuck.
A translation is already "treasonous" enough, we shouldn't encourage blatant warping of the work on top.
Stereogatari
Banned
The prime example of that is the Pokemon anime. Rice cakes become jelly doughnuts and sandwiches haha.
formasymphonic
Member
My hope is that characters will be written without allowing a singular trait dominating their identity and to avoid relying on stereotypes.
I don't wang to see someone written as "the black character" or "the female character" or "the gay character". Personally I think it's better go have them written with the mindset that [gender/ethnicity/sexuality/etc etc] is just a secondary characteristic unless specifically relevant to the story etc.
Saying that though, I would like to see more protagonists that are something other than usual white male between a certain age range, but as long as the market is hesitant to buy it publishers will sadly be hesitant to allow it.
I don't wang to see someone written as "the black character" or "the female character" or "the gay character". Personally I think it's better go have them written with the mindset that [gender/ethnicity/sexuality/etc etc] is just a secondary characteristic unless specifically relevant to the story etc.
Saying that though, I would like to see more protagonists that are something other than usual white male between a certain age range, but as long as the market is hesitant to buy it publishers will sadly be hesitant to allow it.
Diversity of locales goes without saying.
Ethnicity-wise, stop it with the tokens. Great, your game has a few non-caucasian characters. Do they seem to have any life outside of helping the main character? Does any ethnic character ever interact with another ethnic character? Are there multiple characters of a single race within your primary cast?
Feels like a lot of devs would say "you can do that?" to a lot of these questions.
Ethnicity-wise, stop it with the tokens. Great, your game has a few non-caucasian characters. Do they seem to have any life outside of helping the main character? Does any ethnic character ever interact with another ethnic character? Are there multiple characters of a single race within your primary cast?
Feels like a lot of devs would say "you can do that?" to a lot of these questions.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Might be a pipedream still at this point, but that's sort of why I would hope for a diversity of locales. If we had a game set in India, it would be awesome if a dev didn't just insert a white protagonist/cast and instead had a native protagonist and cast!
I agree to an extent, but I do think we need to acknowledge that this is why there is an important distinction between ethnicity and culture. Does a character need to be written as a "black" character? Probably not, because actually that's kind of ambiguous. But what about a character that's Muslim? Or Buddhist? Or Mexican? Those are identities that carry characteristics that are more defined and interesting than just solely the color of their skin. Each of those identities has a unique worldview, belief set and cultural practices. Then you don't have a "black" character, instead you can have a African Muslim woman from Nigeria. That's a cool, multifaceted, unique character that's not just a token thrown in for the appearance of diversity.
I don't know that such an identity would be directly relevant to the a game's story, but it could give a game more uniqueness and certainly give it a chance to explore different themes.
This is important for games made by foreign developers, but this still begs the question, how do we deal with games made about/set in foreign countries? If a UK dev makes a game about Mongolia, how do they handle this stuff?
MisterGrey3000
Member
It would be really nice to see a Himba-esque people existing along side a Benin Empire-esque civilization existing alongside a Nubian-esque civilization while also existing alongside a Zulu-esque empire in a pre-colonial sub-Saharan Africa-based game that doesn't only take place in a large savanna or arid bushland with stereotypical western ideas of black "ooga booga" cavemen.
Africa as a place hasn't really been done any sort of substantial justice in most artistic entertainment mediums, and I'd really like for this to change; it was and still is a very diverse and intricate place with a lot of captivating stories to tell.
I'm incredibly tired of seeing wore torn Africa or
"deepest darkest Africa" still being the primary representations of the continent, it's people, and it's wildlife in TV/Films/Animations/Video Games/etc.
Also (in terms of discussing diversity in character design), seeing the new Overwatch character Zarya got me thinking that I don't see a lot of thin/wispy leggy feminine (in terms of their gender expression/mannerisms/appearance) male characters in games; and when I talk about feminine I don't mean like what straight guys seem to think feminine is (which, from what I have experienced, seems to just be sexily posed traditionally handsome "cut" guys with their shirts off) , I mean feminine like this and this.
And I'd love to see these characters be heroes with agency rather than creepy crossdresser sissy villains that are supposed to make the audience uncomfortable; I mean, I love a good sissy Villain (HIM from Power Puff Girls and Scar from Lion King are GOAT) but we've got enough of those already.
Seeing a the male equivalent of Zarya being revealed in a game and treated with respect by the developers and accepting/educated enthusiast gamers is a definite dream of mine.
Africa as a place hasn't really been done any sort of substantial justice in most artistic entertainment mediums, and I'd really like for this to change; it was and still is a very diverse and intricate place with a lot of captivating stories to tell.
I'm incredibly tired of seeing wore torn Africa or
"deepest darkest Africa" still being the primary representations of the continent, it's people, and it's wildlife in TV/Films/Animations/Video Games/etc.
Also (in terms of discussing diversity in character design), seeing the new Overwatch character Zarya got me thinking that I don't see a lot of thin/wispy leggy feminine (in terms of their gender expression/mannerisms/appearance) male characters in games; and when I talk about feminine I don't mean like what straight guys seem to think feminine is (which, from what I have experienced, seems to just be sexily posed traditionally handsome "cut" guys with their shirts off) , I mean feminine like this and this.
And I'd love to see these characters be heroes with agency rather than creepy crossdresser sissy villains that are supposed to make the audience uncomfortable; I mean, I love a good sissy Villain (HIM from Power Puff Girls and Scar from Lion King are GOAT) but we've got enough of those already.
Seeing a the male equivalent of Zarya being revealed in a game and treated with respect by the developers and accepting/educated enthusiast gamers is a definite dream of mine.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
For the love, let us get some Afrofuturist games and a Hip-Hop RPG. I already got some plans of my own to bring to the industry. Not that many JRPGs use Japan as a setting in any time period. It's also funny how there are more non-human in games over people of color.
I'd give all the money I still have left for something like this...
dapperbandit
Banned
Ooh yes.
I think it would have to be directed quite carefully by someone who knew what they were doing, otherwise it would just merge into the vague jumble of Nordic/Saxon imagery we're all familiar with already.