Support NeoGAF

[Green Biker Dude]

WTF is up with the people posting in this thread. Just because you don't like DMC it doesn't mean you have to ruin it for everyone else with dumb puzzles, stupid NPC interaction or "proper changes".

 

[Dali]

Certain aspects of DMC (along with most other action games) feel archaic in design, but that's because it takes the "action first, everything else second" approach. It's that same approach that produces the best action games. They should try doing something a little better than the "door locked, need item, retrieve item, open door" approach though.

I just want them to keep turbo mode from DMC3:SE and make the regular enemies a tangible threat, like they were in the first game.

Yes. This is what I was saying. That is lazy, but I guess if it works...

 

[MickeyKnox]

Just because DMC2 sucks doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have played and finished all of them, I just want something about DMC4 that make the game scream "I'M NEXT GEN!!", especially when all I've seen of it looks too close to DMC3.

Except it's actually not a DMC game, it's a game that was built from the ground up as something else and when DMC 1 turned into a huge hit was essentially re-skinned to cash in on the name.

Making important game design decisions for the sake of vanity is one of the biggest pitfalls of the industry.

 

[C- Warrior]

Nero's hand looks cool and all, and grabbing enemies is fine, but there needs to be something more.

You -really- think that's all there is to DMC4's combat? After 3+ years development, the best they can come up with his an arm-based attack? After DMC3, that had more moves, weapons, cancles, just-frames, instant weapon swaps, styles, bosses, strats than most people can count, you really think the first 10 minutes that people have demo'd of dmc4 is as far as it's combat is going to go?

...wow.

 

[Logan Cano]

You know, better skin textures sure, but animating? detail? movement? If anything, considering the cutscenes in DMC4 run at 60 fps, Kyrie would probably have better and smoother movement. And again, other than the skin texture (which is absolutely amazing...yes) I don't see where you can say one model is goldy, and the other model is shit.

Damn, you are so freaking defensive about your little game that you just interpret things in whatever way you want to, instead of actually reading.

Nariko's model is simply better. That doesn't mean the DMC girl looks like shit, she just doesn't compare to Nariko in terms of detail. So, simply, deal with it.

Also, the DMC4 chick moves like a damn robot, and looks very stiff in motion, judging from what Capcom has shown. Compare that to the fantastic motion captured movements that is used in HS and the chick just animates poorly. 60 FPS doesn't turn crappy animation into good one, it simply displays the crappy animation smoother.

You mean like...puzzles? No thank you. I'd rather have the challenging boss fights where you learn patterns and find openings to be all the puzzles an -action- game needs. Talking to NPC's, finding keys or staffs or relics or milking cats or any of that bullshit can stay out. Oh, and pushing boxes to that list as well.

Sigh....I've discovered that you are more defensive about DMC than a mother with her children. Yeah, some sort of puzzles or plattforming or whatever, if well done, would add a lot to the experience. But that's just me, I can't fathom how a person can be so irrational when it comes to this sort of thing.

You -really- think that's all there is to DMC4's combat? After 3+ years development, the best they can come up with his an arm-based attack? After DMC3, that had more moves, weapons, cancles, just-frames, instant weapon swaps, styles, bosses, strats than most people can count, you really think the first 10 minutes that people have demo'd of dmc4 is as far as it's combat is going to go?

...wow.

Oh, excuse me, I didn't think of the countless other elements that capcom has added to the game...oh wait, nothing else has been mentioned. It's always about the Devil Bringer- so until more is revealed, yeah, my comment is appropriate.

And Mickey Knox, "technically", you can find 3 games in the DMC series, so yeah, there's three of them. Soap operas about who changed what, who made someone cry and who got whatever dev pregnant during their development is none of my concern.

 

[Date of Lies]

:lol

this is funny how?

They weren't exactly QTEs but there were flashing "tap as fast as you can" buttons on the screen, so no need for hypocrisies.

 

[Narag]

some sort of puzzles or plattforming or whatever, if well done, would add a lot to the experience. But that's just me, I can't fathom how a person can be so irrational when it comes to this sort of thing.

Talk of needing to make a game more "next-gen" or saying the formula is stale made me remember Draft's post from an Itagaki interview thread back in June. GoW crack aside, I tend to agree with the rest of what he said there especially in terms of this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6662240&postcount=100

 

[MickeyKnox]

I'm hyped for HS much in the same way I was hyped for GoW2 but that game is NOT in the same genre and attempting to draw comparisons between the two or pitting aspects of them against one another is an exercise in foolishness.

So stop that shit before the thread gets even more off the rails than it already is.

this is funny how?

They weren't exactly QTEs but there were flashing "tap as fast as you can" buttons on the screen, so no need for hypocrisies.

There you go, not only that but the structure of God Hand is so radically different from DMC that I can't believe you're trying to chum the waters using it.

 

[Logan Cano]

Talk of needing to make a game more "next-gen" or saying the formula is stale made me remember Draft's post from an Itagaki interview thread back in June. GoW crack aside, I tend to agree with the rest of what he said there especially in terms of this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6662240&postcount=100

You talk as if adding a few interesting elements would change that about the series...

 

[Dali]

Talk of needing to make a game more "next-gen" or saying the formula is stale made me remember Draft's post from an Itagaki interview thread back in June. GoW crack aside, I prone to agree with the rest of what he said there especially in terms of this thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6662240&postcount=100

That's a pretty good quote, but there is always room for improvement. Making a game more "next-gen" doesn't really entail more bloom or totally changing the core gameplay. It could be little things like a greater variation in low level enemies or rethinking ways of limiting character progression. Both things DMC4 has totally ignored from the videos I've seen.

 

[Ronin]

You talk as if adding a few interesting elements would change that about the series...

Interesting? More like getting in the way of just ****ing shit up. Thats what DMC is all about. If I want all that other bullshit, I'll play something else.

 

[Narag]

That's a pretty good quote, but there is always room for improvement. Making a game more "next-gen" doesn't really entail more bloom or totally changing the core gameplay. It could be little things like a greater variation in low level enemies or rethinking ways of limiting character progression.

Yeah I'm all for what you've suggested here and that godawful "enter a room oh noez a demon is blocking it clear it" notion that's used nonstop and I'd actually prefer that.

Adding platforming, qtes, changing camera angles to make them more "actiony", more puzzles, less fighting, those are the things that I feel would change the core gameplay. Annoying fetch quests and puzzles were the lowpoints of DMC3 for me. Could they be made interesting enough to include? Probably but its really not what I'll be buying the game for.

I don't feel Logan is too far off in what he wants in general but I don't think it'd fit this genre or IP itself. In fact, him and I share similar opinions. For everything he's wanted to be different in DMC, I think the same for GoW but I'm well aware the diehard fans would rally against whatever I'd want changed.

 

[gconsole]

Nariko's model is simply better. That doesn't mean the DMC girl looks like shit, she just doesn't compare to Nariko in terms of detail. So, simply, deal with it.

Also, the DMC4 chick moves like a damn robot, and looks very stiff in motion, judging from what Capcom has shown. Compare that to the fantastic motion captured movements that is used in HS and the chick just animates poorly. 60 FPS doesn't turn crappy animation into good one, it simply displays the crappy animation smoother.

I'm not on c-warrior side but could you show me where that is ? All I can see rightnow is only the cutscene with the very generic motion capture and nothing is 'move like a damn robot'. I think c-warrior defensive level is the same as yours. Protect their belove game is some kind of annoying and I admin that c-warrior make me feel that way all the time. But praise the game that does not even release yet is something more.

 

[Logan Cano]

I'm not on c-warrior side but could you show me where that is ? All I can see rightnow is only the cutscene with the very generic motion capture and nothing is 'move like a damn robot'. I think c-warrior defensive level is the same as yours.

You can find what I saw in the DMC4 trailer released I while ago. Her movement while singing and whatnot felt very stiff and I doubt that has changed. Maybe I'm wrong now, and her animation has been scrapped for a better one, but like I said before, from what Capcom has shown, her animation simply isn't good.

 

[gconsole]

You can find what I saw in the DMC4 trailer released I while ago. Her movement while singing and whatnot felt very stiff and I doubt that has changed. Maybe I'm wrong now, and her animation has been scrapped for a better one, but like I said before, from what Capcom has shown, her animation simply isn't good.

OK, I agree on that. Her singing motion is weird. But, the rest is fine by me. I think the DMC cutscene motion capture is not that good but it's not that bad neither. Only one thing bothering me is that every character try to be cool all the time. But again, the overall quality is not much very different from HS as my eyes can see.

 

[MickeyKnox]

You can find what I saw in the DMC4 trailer released I while ago. Her movement while singing and whatnot felt very stiff and I doubt that has changed. Maybe I'm wrong now, and her animation has been scrapped for a better one, but like I said before, from what Capcom has shown, her animation simply isn't good.

Different Genres, different games, different targets, different design philosophies, etc...

DMC is NOT HS and HS is NOT DMC. Both can exist at the same time and occupy a different sector of the market, it's not one or the other.

 

[USD]

You can find what I saw in the DMC4 trailer released I while ago. Her movement while singing and whatnot felt very stiff and I doubt that has changed. Maybe I'm wrong now, and her animation has been scrapped for a better one, but like I said before, from what Capcom has shown, her animation simply isn't good.

Oh come on. That's cutscene stuff, in DMC used solely for connecting gameplay sequences. If your going to evaluate the animation in DMC4, do so in gameplay, not with cutscenes. The animation DMC4 isn't the greatest, but that's because of the nature of the system. You can cancel into and out of almost every move near instantly, which does not allow for the most realistic animation with regards to transitions, but it still looks great.

 

[Ether_Snake]

What game are you refering to?? MGS: TTS?? If so, then stop living, please. The only thing that travesty did was break the gameplay of the original.



j/k about the dying part.

RE4

And people, STFU about QTEs, I hate them, I never asked for them in DMC4, in fact I didn't ask for anything that would change the gameplay AT ALL. Just bouncing props when you smack a bitch in the ground, shattering windows when you go ****ed top, better walking/running animations and more intense camera work based on actions.

None of this is a change in how it actually plays.

I WIN (yeah just for the sake of the argument).

 

[Ether_Snake]

You -really- think that's all there is to DMC4's combat? After 3+ years development, the best they can come up with his an arm-based attack? After DMC3, that had more moves, weapons, cancles, just-frames, instant weapon swaps, styles, bosses, strats than most people can count, you really think the first 10 minutes that people have demo'd of dmc4 is as far as it's combat is going to go?

...wow.

Dude wtf seriously, no mention of 60 FPS?

I'm out.

 

[karasu]

Dude....no, just no. DMC4 has improved somewhat, true, but it is still light years away from looking as good as Heavenly Sword, and that includes Nariko's character model compared to anything in Capcom´s game. Not only that but the lightning, skin and many, many little details also makes the DMC4 look crappy compared to HS's chick.

ONLY in cut scenes, and only during close ups does Nariko look really good. I don't think she's 'better' though. It's just a different style.

What I meant by that is that maybe you can show more damage with determined guns than with others, or maybe make it so you can block certain attacks from different enemies when wielding different weapons, or make him move differently, jump higher or be faster depending on the weapon. QTE's can happen in segments between battles, not necessarily in the battles themselves.

That's just off the top of my head and better ideas can be found with a bit of work, but the point is that DMC is f*cking stale right now.

Uh, nearly all of this was in DMC3. No lame QTE's of course.

 

[C- Warrior]

Also, the DMC4 chick moves like a damn robot.

So now, Capcom's animations are robotic? Despite the motion capture is further advanced from Lost Planet / Dead Rising - in which the animation in cutscenes were rather decent? Wow.

My ****in god -- stop using hyperbole's to try to defend or further justify HS's supposed untouchable pedastal of superiority.

It's like the only way you can convey your 'message' is to use extreme ends. This model is perfect, no flaws -- while the other model is ugly, and robotic.

And I don't have a .gif of this, but this part comes togther well.

Robotic? Right...

 

[AAK]

:lol @ Heavenly Sword v/s DMC4 argument. We're back to the GOW vs DMC3 days.

Virgil took Beowolf out like the bathroom trash. Give him some of this next gen spin and you will see wonders.

Anyone can toy with a dead carcass, and he only did take him down after Dante blinded and weakened him.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Ummm comparing HS graphically to DMC 4 is ridiculous...they aren't close at all

DMC4 looks pretty good, but HS is far more impressive. There is no question. Preference of art is a different matter though

Both games look to offer something different though...DMC4 a deeper combat system, but a shallow plot and characters...HS a simpler combat system, but better visuals, music, atmosphere and character and story depth.

Both games will be great I expect

 

[isochronus]

Dude....no, just no. DMC4 has improved somewhat, true, but it is still light years away from looking as good as Heavenly Sword, and that includes Nariko's character model compared to anything in Capcom´s game. Not only that but the lightning, skin and many, many little details also makes the DMC4 look crappy compared to HS's chick.

You do not see those blocky sharp angles along her jaw?

 

[EviLore]

RE4

And people, STFU about QTEs, I hate them, I never asked for them in DMC4, in fact I didn't ask for anything that would change the gameplay AT ALL. Just bouncing props when you smack a bitch in the ground, shattering windows when you go ****ed top, better walking/running animations and more intense camera work based on actions.

None of this is a change in how it actually plays.

I WIN (yeah just for the sake of the argument).

Flashy environmental effects = gameplay?

Because you clearly said that DMC4 has "old gen gameplay" and listed that as a complaint.

 

[gconsole]

DMC animation/modeling is not next gen. Don't get me wrong. They just do everything as the same as they did with DMC->DMC2->DMC3. Compare to the new game like HS which build everything from the ground up, it could be different. Also, the shots from open area with heavily use of lighting in HS could look more impressive than inside building or dark atmostphere shots in DMC4.

I will not conclude my opinion for visual and gameplay until I play both game in action.

 

[C- Warrior]

Ummm comparing HS graphically to DMC 4 is ridiculous...they aren't close at all

DMC4 looks pretty good, but HS is far more impressive. There is no question. Preference of art is a different matter though

Both games look to offer something different though...DMC4 a deeper combat system, but a shallow plot and characters...HS a simpler combat system, but better visuals, music, atmosphere and character and story depth.

Both games will be great I expect

Indeed, it seems all the development effort for DMC4 went into it's gameplay and combat system, while for HS -- you know, nice visuals and (maybe) a good story. Although the whole "get a weapon that will drain and kill you" bit was Shinobi-fied quite a ways back.

Though it may be a bit presumptuous to assume either game will have any of those qualities. All we really have to go by is the previous endeavors of the development teams, the producer which was behind the original DMC and RE4, and the director who gave us Powerstone, Street Fighter 3, MvC 1 and 2, and of course DMC3. Ninja Theory made a game that I -actually- liked, had a great time with -- Kung Fu Chaos. Don't know why that game gets all the hate. I enjoyed it

 

[nelsonroyale]

Indeed, it seems all the development effort for DMC4 went into it's gameplay and combat system, while for HS -- you know, nice visuals and (maybe) a good story. Although the whole "get a weapon that will drain and kill you" bit was Shinobi-fied quite a ways back.

Though it may be a bit presumptuous to assume either game will have any of those qualities. All we really have to go by is the previous endeavors of the development teams, the producer which was behind the original DMC and RE4, and the director who gave us Powerstone, Street Fighter 3, MvC 1 and 2, and of course DMC3. Ninja Theory made a game that I -actually- liked, had a great time with -- Kung Fu Chaos. Don't know why that game gets all the hate. I enjoyed it

Heh, yeah I think HS is still the unknown element....but Im not really a huge action game fan, and HS really does look superior in atmosphere and character (DMC is straight cheese for dialogue and characters), as well as visuals...so Im definitely more interested in that game. Still I certainly see how people would be more interested in DMC4, because of its lineage and gameplay

 

[internetslol]

You do not see those blocky sharp angles along her jaw?

You have to understand that he is probably a fanboy and fanboys have a different sense of perception than we mere mortals have.

While you might see this:

He sees this:

*snip*

...and she wants him.

 

[karasu]

Heavenly Sword does not look better. I don't care who says there's 'no question' as to HS's superiority. Especially the gameplay stuff. When I'm looking at gameplay graphics of HS, and gameplay graphics of DMC, DMC wins.

Plus Nariko's hair is fugly. DMC's is awesome.

Anyone can toy with a dead carcass, and he only did take him down after Dante blinded and weakened him.

Hey man he can't dictate fate. He can't help it if Dante got to Beowulf before him. Nero hasn't even done that much yet. His big punch is flashy sure, but it doesn't compare to the precision of Nero's sword(s).

 

[C- Warrior]

DMC4's animation and motion capture is done the same way as they did with DMC->DMC2->DMC3.

Actually gconsole, DMC4 motion capture is using facial capture as well and is probably something they'll continue to do here and out with RE5 as well. (something that Capcom -did not- do with Lost Planet and Dead Rising, and naturally, all the previous PS2/GC games they did.) So, your assesment isn't entirely correct. Just because a producer isn't making an issue that so and so game is doing this or that, doesn't mean they are -not- doing those things.

Ruebon Langdon (dante's motion capture martial artist) taken from just-cause productions' blog on dmc4:

So as I know it, both games are using facial capture. And I don't know if motion capture has gone beyond that technically.

 

[karasu]

and how can you mock DMC's cheese when Heavenly Sword has a line about some guy's sacred testicles? Jesus Christ. It's like overacting 101.

 

[SentientStone]

and how can you mock DMC's cheese when Heavenly Sword has a line about some guy's sacred testicles? Jesus Christ. It's like overacting 101.

I recall that line is removed from the final game though.

PS: I will set a goal of completing the first 3 games (yes, even the 2nd one) before I start DMC4 when it is released.

 

[starfox]

HS has yet to top the Epic quality of Jap. Devs ... They Stylized way of doing stuff is way better than anyting on HS.

Sure HS has ub3r graphics, vistas, meat-cannon dinasty warriors like enemys (yuck), and a great chick that has cool animation in motion-captured moves, but in combat she just look ****in' 2 Off ... the only thing she does is ... Spin.

 

[Sagitario]

Ruebon Langdon (dante's motion capture martial artist) taken from just-cause productions' blog on dmc4:

I thought Johnny Yong Bosch was doing the motion capture... or is he doing it for Nero?

 

[USD]

I thought Johnny Yong Bosch was doing the motion capture... or is he doing it for Nero?

Yep.

 

[karasu]

That is badass. They start working together I take it.

 

[nelsonroyale]

and how can you mock DMC's cheese when Heavenly Sword has a line about some guy's sacred testicles? Jesus Christ. It's like overacting 101.

Sorry, DMC has absolutely cheesy dialogue...the fact that you are evening arguing its case (hell Id put Pengu on a higher level)...shows its not an argument worth having...the cheesy dialogue does fit the game though, its not meant to anything other than in your face

The sacred genitals line was pretty funny...the 'flock off feather face' was retarded enough to be funny though

Eh, I can see where C-warrior is coming from and agree with him, but your argument is jumping off a cliff into a piranha shoal

 

[karasu]

Sorry, DMC has absolutely terrible dialogue...the fact that you are evening arguing its case (hell Id put Pengu on a higher level)...shows its not an argument worth having...

You seem to misunderstand. I'm not denying DMC's cheesiness. I'm saying that Heavenly Sword's dialogue doesn't appear to be much better with the whole 'sacred testicles' or whatever. Not even DMC3 sank that low.

 

[nelsonroyale]

You seem to misunderstand. I'm not denying DMC's cheesiness. I'm saying that Heavenly Sword's dialogue doesn't appear to be much better with the whole 'sacred testicles' or whatever. Not even DMC3 sank that low.

eh, thats not low at all...men, tend to refer to their crwon jewels, sacred testicles seems appropriate. From what Ive heard and seen, I cant see how they are comparable

 

[karasu]

I cant see how they are comparable

That's because you're using a double standard.

 

[danwarb]

Ummm comparing HS graphically to DMC 4 is ridiculous...they aren't close at all

DMC4 looks pretty good, but HS is far more impressive. There is no question. Preference of art is a different matter though

Both games look to offer something different though...DMC4 a deeper combat system, but a shallow plot and characters...HS a simpler combat system, but better visuals, music, atmosphere and character and story depth.

Both games will be great I expect

I wouldn't go that far.

HS has much better-looking cinematic sequences, some of which are rendered offline. It also has larger environments with a huge number of on screen enemies; DMC4 has huge enemies. That said, I think it’s unreasonable to dismiss a games visuals for things it isn’t trying to do. Heavenly sword might look better overall, but it's running at 30fps. Both are very impressive IMO.

 

[karasu]

That HS screen is rather ugly to me. It has the same guy on screen 864 times, half of them are in the same position, and their bodies are all blurry and jacked up.

 

[The Jer]

There must be an innate human desire to compare the crap out of combat games. Since we don't yet know how Heavenly Sword plays are we instead comparing screen shots and "cinematicness"

The Heavenly Sword -Devil May Cry - Ninja Gaiden - God of War discussions are going to be crazy nuts once these games come out if this is any foreshadowing of what is to come (we don't know how heavenly sword plays yet and barely know anything about it, yet).

 

[jett]

This thread has gone off the deep end. STFU about Heavenly Sword.

 

[Tiduz]

Just to cancel it out:

DEVIL MAY CRY RULES!!!

 

[Dahbomb]

No it isn't and :lol

First of all, DMC is technically only on it's 3rd iteration and even then, there is a right proper change in the formula between 1&3 and the series is evolving at the right pace. People who have no clue what DMC games are about and just want a ****ing check list of bullshit fluff added to the game because it's "stale" or "more of the same" need to get a boot shoved so far up their ass that they'll be choking on the heel.

:lol

The only sane thing said in this thread thus far.

 

[Yama]

Except it's actually not a DMC game, it's a game that was built from the ground up as something else and when DMC 1 turned into a huge hit was essentially re-skinned to cash in on the name.

Thank you Mickey, took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[InsertCredit]

Seems like this game has a sense of style all of it's own. A little less Gothic that part 1 but hey, it looks brilliant.

Secondly, dmc's combat system is all the way up there with ninja gaiden and the likes. can't wait to master this iteration's take on it

 

[Dahbomb]

Both games look to offer something different though...DMC4 a deeper combat system, but a shallow plot and characters...HS a simpler combat system, but better visuals, music, atmosphere and character and story depth.

Both games will be great I expect

DMC4 appears to provide as much "story depth" as Heavenly Sword, bet on it. DMC will have atmosphere as well, all DMC games do.

And aside from higher enemy count, facial expressions during cutscenes and pretty canned animations, I haven't seen anything about Heavenly Sword that is "far more impressive" as compared to DMC4. DMC4 does all it's combat and cutscenes in 60FPS and does not at all rely on pre-canned, QTE combat mechanics. It's not a valid comparison, both games are offering their own in terms of technical achievement.