"Boderline schizophrenic tonally" probably did it. It's a pretty hyperbolic term, especially when nothing else in your post even discussed your problems with the movie's tone.
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Doctor Strange |Spoiler Thread| htoggoH fo stsoH yraoH eht yB
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"Boderline schizophrenic tonally" probably did it. It's a pretty hyperbolic term, especially when nothing else in your post even discussed your problems with the movie's tone.
"Extremely messy"
"Badly paced"
"Schizophrenic tonally"
Civil War has pacing issues, it's occasionally messy, and plays it loose with tone, but none of those to the degree you're describing.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
You hated on Bucky too much and ruined the movie's word of mouth. It could have broken 3 billion. I blame everything on you.
Mmm...I was just giving a quick summary in regards to my general feelings on the movie. I didn't elaborate on each one of my criticisms regarding the film in-depth because I was writing a shorter post which I didn't want to turn into an essay. I don't see how that translates into hyperbolic criticism.
For what its worth, I enjoyed Captain America: Civil War, but I feel it suffers from a number of fundamental problems both in regards to its structure and its overall approach to storytelling. It's very much a "style over substance film" that impresses people through it's abundance of fan-servicey moments and well executed action set pieces and little else, unlike The Winter Solider which is infinitely more tightly plotted and structurally focused in comparison. I absolutely stand by all those criticisms, as well as the way in which they were worded. Again, Film Critic Hulk does a far greater job of hitting upon the abundance of problems that hold Civil War back than I ever could here.. If you haven't checked his article out, I'd recommend it!
Lots of films can be "extremely messy, badly paced and tonally schizophrenic". Even if the terminology strikes you as dramatic, it doesn't make for the worst film in the world (I'd use the same terms to describe, say....The Hobbit movies, for example), but at the same time, it doesn't make for an all that exemplary a comic book movie either.
If you admit a film has "pacing issues", that usually points to the film being badly paced. If you admit it "plays loose with the tone", that's usually pretty damning for any kind of film that needs tonal consistency for its story to work at a fundamental level. Both of those factors definitely indicate for a fairly messy film.
I love Marvel movies and I continue to enjoy them, but I absolutely believe Marvel can strive for a higher standard considering the amount of talent and money that gets consistently put in them. That might strikes people as hyperbolic or outwardly negative, but honestly...that's just how I feel.
BronsonLee
Member
That's what happens when your main purpose in the movie is to be a little bitch & run from ya asswhoopin til' T'Challa catches you
StarCreator
Member
No one is saying you can't criticize the movie, but I think the way you worded it made it seem you were railing on the movie worse than you actually intended. There are people here who unironically consider the movie worse than Total Recall (2012), so it's a bit of a touchy subject.
Who are these people and why haven't they been banned?
Like CW gets worse every viewing, but it's still a well made film. Just that once the fan service sheen wears off its not that great. It's leagues above most soulless crap.
Oh no, that wasn't the case. Regardless, hopefully I've elaborated on my points a bit better now.
jack_package_200
Banned
Hmmm here is my ranking
Great
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Guardians of the Galaxy
Doctor Strange
Captain America: Civil War
Antman
Ironman
Solid
The Avengers
The Avengers: Age of Ultron
Thor
Captian America: The First Avenger
Okay
Ironman 3
The Incredible Hulk
Ironman 2
Thor: The Dark World
Great
Captain America: Winter Soldier
Guardians of the Galaxy
Doctor Strange
Captain America: Civil War
Antman
Ironman
Solid
The Avengers
The Avengers: Age of Ultron
Thor
Captian America: The First Avenger
Okay
Ironman 3
The Incredible Hulk
Ironman 2
Thor: The Dark World
Monocle
Member
So true.
I will say I was somewhat surprised that Bumbleduck Chowderpatch was such a good fit for the Dr. Strange role.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Yeah strange dying repeatedly in horrible ways was a pretty Dan Harmon thing to do. But either way, what a fucking great way to avoid having to make it a power struggle, and a brilliant way to show what the Time Gem can do.
I really like IM3 but I think the third act is really weak. Killian just wasn't an interesting character, so while the twist was hilarious and a great subversion of expectations, it was a very uninteresting finale. I liked Tony being at a handicap for most of the movie though.
Monocle
Member
Same here. I've seen the movie two or three times and I think it's mostly great. A big step up from IM2. To be fair, I'm not familiar with the source material.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I don't think Civil War was amazing either it had some amazing fights and setpieces but the plot made no sense and the motivations for the whole shebang were ill conceived.
Agreed. It also showed an arc for Strange as far as setting aside his ego and being selfless for the good of everyone.
Brofist. Though Ironman 3 was an ending and decent villain away from being solid.
Waddle Dee
Member
Just saw the movie last night and I quite enjoyed it. They should have taken more time with the training stuff but that's a minor gripe.
My only big problem is how comedy was often added when it felt out of place. Having the Christine (that was her name, right?) get creeped out by the cape was funny and all but it was odd to have that happen immediately after a death scene. Strange was also upset that he killed a man... when said man's death was due to funny shenanigans with the cape. I thought the Cape of Levitation was hilarious, but those were not the right moments for jokes. It was also a shame that the encounter between Strange and Dormammu was played for laughs. Dormammu is an awesome villain and he felt pretty wasted, here.
Still, solid movie. I'd say it was even better than the last origin film in the MCU (Ant Man).
My only big problem is how comedy was often added when it felt out of place. Having the Christine (that was her name, right?) get creeped out by the cape was funny and all but it was odd to have that happen immediately after a death scene. Strange was also upset that he killed a man... when said man's death was due to funny shenanigans with the cape. I thought the Cape of Levitation was hilarious, but those were not the right moments for jokes. It was also a shame that the encounter between Strange and Dormammu was played for laughs. Dormammu is an awesome villain and he felt pretty wasted, here.
Still, solid movie. I'd say it was even better than the last origin film in the MCU (Ant Man).
KeyBladerXIII
Member
I thought the way they did Mandarin was very clever. It was Kilian and that other woman who brought the film down for me. I rolled my eyes heavily at his stupid dragon tattoos.
Everything else was great, especially Tony when he only had one gauntlet and one boot to fight with.
I always thought Brandyditch Curlybotch was a weird pick looks-wise. I think it was the goatee that won me over, he looks 100 times better with facial hair.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
The cape didn't kill the zealot. Strange did with the defibrillator trick. He felt bad and didnt want to do it, but he would have died if the operation was interrupted.
And yeah Dormammu is immensely powerful and can do much more than we saw, but he is essentially a background villain. He manipulates from the shadows. He wasn't wasted because this is just his introduction, and it makes perfect sense why Strange was able to beat him, with the assistance of an Infinity Gem.
And yeah Dormammu is immensely powerful and can do much more than we saw, but he is essentially a background villain. He manipulates from the shadows. He wasn't wasted because this is just his introduction, and it makes perfect sense why Strange was able to beat him, with the assistance of an Infinity Gem.
GuitarAtomik
Member
All the other points are fair, but Strange took out Scott Adkins in the astral plane by getting Christine to overcharge him with the defibrillator. All the cape did there was keep in the sanctum so Strange could get away.
Saw this over the weekend, and really enjoyed it. Superb casting and performances across the board.
My favorite scene by far was Strange and The Ancient One talking as she was holding onto her last few moments of life. Swinton's performance there was incredible, such a collision of emotions. She was at peace, knowing she had reached the moment she'd tried to hard to put off, but knew that it was the end; curious and more than a little afraid about what came next; sad and a little awed at what she was leaving behind. To paraphrase, "Here I am, holding onto my last moment, to watch the snow fall." It was beautiful and heartbreaking.
That moment affected me more than any other in a Marvel film. She was the heart and soul of this one. Utterly brilliant.
I've seen the villain get a lot of grief, but I liked him a lot. It was refreshing to have one with understandable - even relatable! - motivations. He wasn't a sniveling bad guy, but someone who thought he was in the right, and that the ends justified his means. And he was simply tragically wrong. Good performance and a breath of fresh air for Marvel villains.
My favorite scene by far was Strange and The Ancient One talking as she was holding onto her last few moments of life. Swinton's performance there was incredible, such a collision of emotions. She was at peace, knowing she had reached the moment she'd tried to hard to put off, but knew that it was the end; curious and more than a little afraid about what came next; sad and a little awed at what she was leaving behind. To paraphrase, "Here I am, holding onto my last moment, to watch the snow fall." It was beautiful and heartbreaking.
That moment affected me more than any other in a Marvel film. She was the heart and soul of this one. Utterly brilliant.
I've seen the villain get a lot of grief, but I liked him a lot. It was refreshing to have one with understandable - even relatable! - motivations. He wasn't a sniveling bad guy, but someone who thought he was in the right, and that the ends justified his means. And he was simply tragically wrong. Good performance and a breath of fresh air for Marvel villains.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Oh shit that was Scott Adkins, looked so familiar but the evil disco makeup was throwing me off
^^^
Agreed Ghaleon, usually you would start to become cynical of the "mentor dying" moment in superhero origin movies but here they really nailed it because it had already happened - The Ancient One was absolutely going to die but it was tragic seeing her use her powers to hold on just a little bit longer. Her performance elevated every scene she was in.
Also, her death was pretty brutal, the whole theater was silent when she hit the ground and you could hear people sniffing a lot in that last scene.
And I really liked Kaecilius as well because he wasn't just evil for evil's sake. He was misguided and felt reasonably betrayed and allowed the influence of Dormammu to push him towards dark deeds in an attempt to better the universe. Instead of seeing the whole picture like Strange did, he didn't realize he had become a puppet. Part of that was absolutely The Ancient One's fault, so I don't put him in the same camp as characters like Ronan or Malekith who have a motivation but very little to back it up.
He could have been more menacing or something but I don't think that fit the character. He wasn't evil to the core and was just doing what he thought was right.
^^^
Agreed Ghaleon, usually you would start to become cynical of the "mentor dying" moment in superhero origin movies but here they really nailed it because it had already happened - The Ancient One was absolutely going to die but it was tragic seeing her use her powers to hold on just a little bit longer. Her performance elevated every scene she was in.
Also, her death was pretty brutal, the whole theater was silent when she hit the ground and you could hear people sniffing a lot in that last scene.
And I really liked Kaecilius as well because he wasn't just evil for evil's sake. He was misguided and felt reasonably betrayed and allowed the influence of Dormammu to push him towards dark deeds in an attempt to better the universe. Instead of seeing the whole picture like Strange did, he didn't realize he had become a puppet. Part of that was absolutely The Ancient One's fault, so I don't put him in the same camp as characters like Ronan or Malekith who have a motivation but very little to back it up.
He could have been more menacing or something but I don't think that fit the character. He wasn't evil to the core and was just doing what he thought was right.
I think in terms of "saving everyone else from the pain I suffered from losing my family", Zeemo was better. Maybe because it was a lot easier to believe that he was justified, whereas it's hard to see Kaecilius as righteous in anyway when he's serving a guy that rules a place called the Dark Dimension.
Strange pretty much read my mind when he said "Look at your face" to Kaecilius justifying his actions and saying he was saving the world.
Waddle Dee
Member
Ah, my bad. I got that confused in my head as two different people.
I really hope Dormammu comes back and they don't play it for laughs.
Also sucks that there weren't any Impact Palm loops
Zemo wasn't justified at all, he was a scumbag who did horrible things to people before Sokovia and didn't give a shit until it affected him. And as Mark Waid posited in Daredevil, acting like tragedy gives you a right to hurt people just makes you a douchebag.
I disagree strongly that Civil War is primarily a style over substance film. That's how I'd describe Dr. Strange, a movie that's fun to watch but doesn't prioritize character development. I've read Film Critic Hulk's write up on Civil War, and while I think he has some salient points, he underplays the strengths of the film that don't rely on fan service. The inclusion of Spider-man and, to a much lesser extent, Ant-Man for example hinges on fan service but none of the other characters fall victim to that trap. Everyone else is there for easily discernible motivations and most of them have clear arcs. What Civil War does, for better or worse, is rely heavily not on fan service but rather an investment in the MCU that's only ever been used in the Avengers movies. It's a fundamentally different type of feature than Winter Soldier and that movie's laser focused narrative but that difference doesn't automatically make it inferior. Taking advantage of the serialized nature of the MCU may detract from its strengths as a standalone film but not as an installment in the greater MCU. If that's not your bag, if you prefer an isolated narrative closer to Winter Soldier, that's ok. I prefer Winter Soldier over Civil War too! But structurally, I don't see much more than minor hiccups. Having some pacing issues doesn't mean the whole movie is badly paced, for example. Most movies have pacing dips, I don't find Civil War's beyond forgiving.
badcrumble
Member
Yeah, Ant-Man and Spider-Man aside, Civil War does a really good job of giving the entire ensemble cast real motivations and something to do. I think that, as far as juggling a huge cast but making sure they all get actual stories is concerned, it's the first time Marvel managed to top X-Men 2
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I like Civil War a lot. Its 20x better then the shitpile comic version of Civil War.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Pacing issue? It takes its damn time. Which is good. It doesn't rush things.
If you're not pleased by Civil War, I don't know what you would be pleased by, and frankly maybe these movies just aren't for you.
Maybe it doesn't do quite as well as a standalone film; but you can say that all you like. It isn't a standalone film. Films like Civil War are exactly what make the MCU so unique. I don't want the film to pander to nee viewers, I want fan service.
And it does well that the supposedly gimmicky inclusions of the insect men actually manage to feel both exciting and meaningful. I don't think it's at all forced or contrived to have Spidey's "responsibility" angle tie in to a justification of Tony's ideas.
Each character has an arc. I don't really know how you propose any director could have better tied together all those characters, which, yes, despite the immensely irritating Film Crit Hulk's assertions, all have arcs of their own which are reasonably satisfying.
If you're not pleased by Civil War, I don't know what you would be pleased by, and frankly maybe these movies just aren't for you.
Maybe it doesn't do quite as well as a standalone film; but you can say that all you like. It isn't a standalone film. Films like Civil War are exactly what make the MCU so unique. I don't want the film to pander to nee viewers, I want fan service.
And it does well that the supposedly gimmicky inclusions of the insect men actually manage to feel both exciting and meaningful. I don't think it's at all forced or contrived to have Spidey's "responsibility" angle tie in to a justification of Tony's ideas.
Each character has an arc. I don't really know how you propose any director could have better tied together all those characters, which, yes, despite the immensely irritating Film Crit Hulk's assertions, all have arcs of their own which are reasonably satisfying.
roflwaffles
Member
I liked it.
However, Mikkelsen is WASTED on this role. It's a bit better than the usual Marvel villain, but you won't remember him in a few weeks. Such a shame, because Mikkelsen would be the ultimate Doctor Doom.
However, Mikkelsen is WASTED on this role. It's a bit better than the usual Marvel villain, but you won't remember him in a few weeks. Such a shame, because Mikkelsen would be the ultimate Doctor Doom.
eh, SpaceWolf doesn't have to like Civil War to be a fan of the MCU. It's not like Civil War doesn't have flaws, it's just that they're a bigger deal to him than to you or me.
BronsonLee
Member
Legit hoping they just make Mads the Herald of Dormammu or some shit because goddamnit
I thought the movie was very predictable. The characters were very thin, especially Mordo and Mikkelsen. A lot of great acting talent was wasted on a paint-by-numbers story. I felt like it was an extended preview for whatever the next movie is. That said, it was pretty entertaining and wasn't "bad", though I doubt I'll see it a second time.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
He doesn't have to no. And it is flawed in ways, as is any film; but these are the sort of films the MCU is meant to exist to propagate. And as an ensemble film, it was done in the best way possible and I struggle to imagine an Avengers film that I'd enjoy more.
I haven't read the thread enough to catch up what SW thinks of Doctor Strange, but there's a completely by the numbers film that relies on staples of its audience in order to prosper. Civil War didn't commit nearly the cardinal sins that Dr Strange did (and I still reasonable enjoyed DS)
BronsonLee
Member
I've got IDEAS
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Mads Mikkelsen doesn't strike me as the kind of actor who does recurring roles in blockbuster franchises. He was pretty much always gonna be a one-and-done character.
He's just a Mindless One now.
He's just a Mindless One now.
Saucycarpdog
Member
Don't know why some people think they blew their load with Dormomu, they still have the 7 fear lords and Mephisto.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
This could have been a good movie. Unfortunately, it is not.
The main character is boring. The actor also has no charisma.
The movie should have been about The Ancient One, and Ejiofor's character. Tilda Swinton was great. This should have been called something other than Dr.Strange. The Dr.Strange character should not have been the main character. The main actor should have also not been cast as him.
The Artwork, actors like Swinton and everyone else were fantastic.
Dr.Strange, and the generic main female character role they gave McAdams destroyed this movie for me.
The main character is boring. The actor also has no charisma.
The movie should have been about The Ancient One, and Ejiofor's character. Tilda Swinton was great. This should have been called something other than Dr.Strange. The Dr.Strange character should not have been the main character. The main actor should have also not been cast as him.
The Artwork, actors like Swinton and everyone else were fantastic.
Dr.Strange, and the generic main female character role they gave McAdams destroyed this movie for me.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
That's pretty low stuff on the power totem pole. Dormammu is on par with Eternity and other pillars of the cosmos. I mean he created Satannish, and Satannish is on par with Mephisto.
If they want to up the ante, they need to bring out Shuma-Gorath.
fuck you, now I'm going to be disappointed when this doesn't happen
According to this article, Dormammu has created entities to go fight for him, so it could definitely happen.
And since we're ranking MCU films & because I'm bored right now...
- Captain America: The Winter Soldier
- The Avengers
- Iron Man
- Captain America: Civil War
- Guardians of the Galaxy
- Doctor Strange
- Ant-Man
- Captain America: The First Avenger
- Thor
- Iron Man 2
- Avengers: Age of Ultron
- The Incredible Hulk
- Iron Man 3
- Thor: The Dark World
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Part of it is that I think that Mandarin would have been better if he was actually a character instead of the actor.
But the main reason it's bad is that that plot twist kills the entire third act of the movie. They spend the whole movie developing what would have probably been the best Marvel cinematic villain at that point only to throw all of that away to turn him into a joke and thrust the focus on what is probably the most under developed and forgettable Marvel villain yet.
His fight scenes weren't even good. He had the same powers as the two people Iron Man fought earlier in the movie and that fight was leagues better than when IM has to fight him while breaking out from being captured or the finale with all of the suits.
Pretty much nothing good happens in the movie after Mandarin is revealed to be an actor.
Just saw it and agree for the most part though I'm not quite as positive on the villain. Yes it was neat that he wasn't just evil for the sake of being evil but in the end it was still extremely one note.
That being said Swinton and Cumberbatch absolutely killed it, especially Swinton. That moment you're talking about was almost like a glimpse of the movie becoming more than another Marvel movie. I enjoy these movies a lot and will continue to watch them but they are a bit on the safe side and the formula is starting to wear thin. That's why I did not expect a scene like that and why I'm really glad it's in there. Action was fun as always and I appreciated how they solved the "fight" against Dormammu.
It's a really divisive film somehow. I disagree with pretty much all of the complaints people have about it. I like it start to finish. It's def the best ensemble Marvel film so far.
The folks who don't like it are steadfast in their dislike though so I'm pretty much at agree to disagree at this point.
IM3 is tonally dissonant and lingers on goofy humor a bit too much for it to not be divisive. If the comedic bits with Happy or the guy in the news van who loves Stark too much don't land for you, they go on too long. I like IM3 and some of it is great but I'd personally prune 5-10 minutes out of it.
The Mandarin stuff otoh works perfectly for me. One of the best comedic bits in the entire MCU.
Glass Rebel
Member
It really isn't. 90% RT, 90% RT audience score, 75 Metascore, 8.3 User score.
There's a vocal minority that doesn't like it but it isn't divisive by any stretch of the imagination.
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