Marty Chinn
Member
But there's only been one game to accomplish that criteria then. Almost no game is perfect in everything it does.
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Does a game with bad story but perfect gameplay deserve 10/10 Reviews?
- Thread starter Arnie7
- Start date
But there's only been one game to accomplish that criteria then. Almost no game is perfect in everything it does.
This seems to imply that those TellTale games do not have gameplay or that it is bad.
I think an important thing here is to first define what is and what is NOT gameplay.
I disagree. To me not every game has to excel in every category to be classified a masterpiece (or a 10/10 w.e.) it just has to excel in the areas it focuses on and since Mario games don't care about story I don't think that should factor in at all, to me a 10/10 is something like Galaxy that is just perfect in every way it tries, where had it featured some garbage plot (like oh I don't know parasites are infecting the Mushroom Kingdom and were responsible for every event in evolution) then I'd say it shouldn't be a 10/10 and should be penalized for trying and focusing on something clearly subpar, but Mario games don't do that.
psychotron
Member
The mad max argument. Story was nothing...movie was great. It depends on what the aim of the project was.
Yes and no, kinda depends on what the focus is.
I bought Bayonetta 2 because i wanted to play a really good action game, and its a 10/10 in my book.
I bought Persona 4 because i wanted a good story with good characters, and that games is also a 9 or 10/10 in my book.
Reviewers should really tell you what a 10/10 means in their perspective, to me it means the game did what it set out to do perfectly.
I bought Bayonetta 2 because i wanted to play a really good action game, and its a 10/10 in my book.
I bought Persona 4 because i wanted a good story with good characters, and that games is also a 9 or 10/10 in my book.
Reviewers should really tell you what a 10/10 means in their perspective, to me it means the game did what it set out to do perfectly.
kunonabi
Member
I skipped them. The "banter" with Hunnigan was especially terrible.
Depends what you mean by this.
There are absolutely cases where poor visuals will detract from an excellent game enough to be discussed as a valid flaw.
This is exactly it in a nutshell. A game should be judged solely on what it sets out to achieve.
Does the game spend your time telling you an intricate story, hoping to entertain and engage you with narrative? If so, the game must be judged on how well it does at that.
If the story is just 1 minute of throwaway plot in the beginning as a simple 'narrative framework' so that gameplay can occur, then who cares if the story is good or not - it's not a focus of the game.
MGSV is the perfect example. The gameplay was an 11/10 for me. Possibly the best gameplay I've ever experienced. But the amount of time I had to spend suffering through poor cutscenes, exposition, dialogue and tapes really cost it a lot of my goodwill, and I couldn't in good conscience ignore how much that frustrated me and call it a 10/10 game.
It's not even about expectations, though. Had MGSV dropped the narrative entirely and been gameplay-only, I would have been disappointed at first but then judged the game as a masterpiece on what it was trying to be - a gameplay-exclusive experience. (And one that would have totally nailed it.) If Mario suddenly had an intricate story, I'd be surprised but if it was good it would only add to what I thought of the game. Mario Galaxy and Rosalina's story time is a good example of that - it added significantly to that game in a way I never expected.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
There a bunch of games where I enjoyed the gameplay, but stopped playing because the story wasn't grabbing me.
Mechanically speaking Dying Light is awesome, but the story was completely flat. Just Cause 2 also had the same issue.
The Tomb Raider reboot was a big one for me. I felt if it had a more interesting story it could have been a 10/10 game.
Mechanically speaking Dying Light is awesome, but the story was completely flat. Just Cause 2 also had the same issue.
The Tomb Raider reboot was a big one for me. I felt if it had a more interesting story it could have been a 10/10 game.
If a game is centered around story as a critical element (dialogue, character development, lore) then no, it doesn't deserve 10/10. If a game's story is simply there to serve as a vehicle for the gameplay, sure, why not.
Edit: As an analogy, I don't think cover art on a book has any bearing on how good a regular novel is. However, it the book frequently provides images for whatever reason (maybe the author wants to skip setting details in the text) then I will also judge the book on the quality of those images.
Edit: As an analogy, I don't think cover art on a book has any bearing on how good a regular novel is. However, it the book frequently provides images for whatever reason (maybe the author wants to skip setting details in the text) then I will also judge the book on the quality of those images.
it just depends on the game, I'd take it on a case by case basis. there are games where the story is integral to the entire experience and it being bad would bring down the whole game. then there's stuff like the main mario games where there honestly isn't even enough of a story to judge whether it's good or bad but that doesn't matter because that's not what the emphasis of the game is.
with something like Bayonetta I personally wouldn't dock it based on its story because it works for what the game is but I could see how someone else might not dig it. I'm not playing a Bayonetta game because of the engaging narrative, though I do enjoy the tone of the cut scenes and think they add to the overall game experience.
with something like Bayonetta I personally wouldn't dock it based on its story because it works for what the game is but I could see how someone else might not dig it. I'm not playing a Bayonetta game because of the engaging narrative, though I do enjoy the tone of the cut scenes and think they add to the overall game experience.
Yep. Reviews are subjective. What is awarded that "10" score, I feel, has more to do with how everything comes together to give a great experience.
Max Payne 3 as an example is worse as a game because the game focus of the pre-rendered cutscenes which constantly interrupt the gameplay and are terrible to look at (quality, writing and the distortion effects are really bad) while in the other hand Max Payne 2 was excellent and made the game more awesome.
It's also a perfect example for a game that suffers from ludonarrative dissonance, MP 3 would highly benefit from custom maps and mod support which would unfold the full potential of the game engine.
It's also a perfect example for a game that suffers from ludonarrative dissonance, MP 3 would highly benefit from custom maps and mod support which would unfold the full potential of the game engine.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
This thread is weird compared to what I thought about here. Every other day theres some thread complaining about the writing in some game or the narrative.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Never player FF5. Was it supposed to be more of a dungeon-crawler rather than a narrative driven , full blown RPG? I get the sense that at the time FF as a brand wasn't established as a cinematic, story driven experience , though I could be wrong.
KelpNugatCrunch
Member
In my opinion it depends on the game itself.
Like, if the gameplay is amazing but the story is so, so bad that it hurts just going through it then imo that's impeding gameplay. You want to play more of the game, but the story is so awful that it zaps all interest in wanting to progress, even for the sake of gameplay.
In that case I don't believe that game should get a perfect score, because story is still an aspect of the game just as much as music or graphics are.
Like, if the gameplay is amazing but the story is so, so bad that it hurts just going through it then imo that's impeding gameplay. You want to play more of the game, but the story is so awful that it zaps all interest in wanting to progress, even for the sake of gameplay.
In that case I don't believe that game should get a perfect score, because story is still an aspect of the game just as much as music or graphics are.
Diprosalic
Banned
all games have bad stories.
It's really up to the game and what they want the player to focus on. That's why I'm not really as down on MGS5's storytelling failings as others are, since the series as a whole has featured categorically awful stories and this particular game really wasn't going out of its way to make a big deal out of having a story like some of the others, outside of the marketing that pointed things in the opposite direction (which I don't fault anyone for taking issue with). It's undoubtedly jarring for those who are invested in the canon of the series, but I just take it for what it is as the game presents it: some context as to why you're in Afghanistan/Africa, and then giving you the keys to the kingdom to achieve whatever objective that the particular mission wants you to complete.
If I were a reviewer on that game, I would probably mention that the game doesn't have the greatest story, but I'd also be quick to point out that neither did six or seven other games in the series. That's not my buy-in for the franchise.
If I were a reviewer on that game, I would probably mention that the game doesn't have the greatest story, but I'd also be quick to point out that neither did six or seven other games in the series. That's not my buy-in for the franchise.
Neoleo2143
Member
In that Case, when there aren't any words to express traditional narrative of words, level design and the feeling expressed from that interaction must suffice. That is what we call a "Story".
Super Mario Galaxy 2 has a close to non-existent narrative, but a strong story that is induced through the player's interaction with the game.
We seem to separate gameplay and Story, when really it should be Narrative that is Separate. Story is everything in the game, all the words, actions and aesthetics.
MGS3 too?
Not true. Depends entirely on how important story is to a particular game.
Different people?
Doominated
Member
To me, gaming is more than just the original intent of a "video game" nowadays. It stretches more into the realm of "entertainment" as a medium.
Because games can have so many different facets that derive what they are trying to accomplish in that medium, yes, to me a game can be "perfect" in score even if the story is bad/nonexistent. And in the alternate view, a game can be "perfect" in score even if the gameplay is subpar (although this is way more difficult to pull off than going the other way, because of the roots of what a "video game" originally was).
Realistically, games should very rarely garner ANY 10/10 or "perfect" reviews. Unfortunately for the gaming industry, review scores are very bloated because 5/10 isn't considered the "average" mark for a video game. So when a very generic game that does nothing extraordinary to push boundaries comes out and gets an 88-92 score, how can you justify NOT giving a game that does all the same things much better, while pushing boundaries, a 100? It's a vicious cycle that'll probably never be broken.
I mean, how many movies get a 10/10 or a "perfect" rating from ANY critic, let alone multiple critics? Yet in the gaming space it's commonplace for any triple-A title, no matter how truly great or average it is, to get at least a half dozen of them.
Because games can have so many different facets that derive what they are trying to accomplish in that medium, yes, to me a game can be "perfect" in score even if the story is bad/nonexistent. And in the alternate view, a game can be "perfect" in score even if the gameplay is subpar (although this is way more difficult to pull off than going the other way, because of the roots of what a "video game" originally was).
Realistically, games should very rarely garner ANY 10/10 or "perfect" reviews. Unfortunately for the gaming industry, review scores are very bloated because 5/10 isn't considered the "average" mark for a video game. So when a very generic game that does nothing extraordinary to push boundaries comes out and gets an 88-92 score, how can you justify NOT giving a game that does all the same things much better, while pushing boundaries, a 100? It's a vicious cycle that'll probably never be broken.
I mean, how many movies get a 10/10 or a "perfect" rating from ANY critic, let alone multiple critics? Yet in the gaming space it's commonplace for any triple-A title, no matter how truly great or average it is, to get at least a half dozen of them.
Core story isn't the only thing to consider here, I'm glad someone mentioned Dying Light, because you're right to say the story is pretty flat, but I wouldn't completely call the narrative elements a complete waste. The world building in that game is fantastic, the setting is phenomenal, and the music and visuals really blend together to create a really striking tone. While you could argue this sounds like more of a presentation defense, it certainly effects the more abstract narrative, and I feel like that's something we should be considering more and more when we talk about "story" in a game.
A game that requires a good story to be enjoyable is a bad game. Gameplay should stand on its own.
Diprosalic
Banned
especially anything Metal Gear.
Mad Max: Fury Road (I'm assuming you're talking about that one) does have a good story. It's got likable characters, interesting social commentary, and no wasted screen-time.
Mad Max only doesn't have a story if you think "story" is how complicated the basic plot structure is. By that measure, Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance has a better story than Shadow of the Colossus because the plot is way more complicated.
that's why the first sentence is there. If you try to do something, you better do it well. MGSV trailers put so much focus on the story, so it was obvious they were aiming for that.
Here's an example for all the 'Sure, only gameplay matters' people - what about a game like VLR or 999 or Phoenix Wright. Would you say those games could be great without a great story if they get the (small) gameplay parts right?
Of course not, because the entire point of those games is telling a story. Which is why how good that story is is generally the same as how good the game is considered to be. It's the opposite of classic 2D mario games, which have nothing but the barest outline of a story and are essentially gameplay only. Most narrative games sit somewhere in between the two, but that means the story still matters in most of them and they should be judged by how much of the experience that story is asked to carry.
Yeah I agreed with that part, just saying that games shouldn't be judged by expectations when they seek to break free of them.
Of course not, because the entire point of those games is telling a story. Which is why how good that story is is generally the same as how good the game is considered to be. It's the opposite of classic 2D mario games, which have nothing but the barest outline of a story and are essentially gameplay only. Most narrative games sit somewhere in between the two, but that means the story still matters in most of them and they should be judged by how much of the experience that story is asked to carry.
Yeah I agreed with that part, just saying that games shouldn't be judged by expectations when they seek to break free of them.
Adam_Vania
Banned
I don't quite understand the whole "bad story" thing. It's dumb. A story is just there, if you like it, you like it, if you don't, you don't.
It's really weird, I've never heard anyone say "Oh, that's a bad story!" about other works of art. Nobody seriously studying world literature divides works into "good" or "bad". Nobody who is into film history thinks about if a movie's story is "good" or "bad".
That's because this good/bad thing is a value judgement. It's for appraisers, marketers, etc. It's not an intellectual engagement. It's a binary decision that leaves no room for ambiguity, for interpretation, for personal experience.
It's really weird, I've never heard anyone say "Oh, that's a bad story!" about other works of art. Nobody seriously studying world literature divides works into "good" or "bad". Nobody who is into film history thinks about if a movie's story is "good" or "bad".
That's because this good/bad thing is a value judgement. It's for appraisers, marketers, etc. It's not an intellectual engagement. It's a binary decision that leaves no room for ambiguity, for interpretation, for personal experience.
Diprosalic
Banned
what? it had a great story.
Seeing as I can't stand those games, I'd say no.
It has some cool subversive elements with regards to its ending, but it is still a game where the first major roadblock that is put into the path of our hero is a man who can summon bees to grab a Tommy gun for him, and that's not even the most ridiculous shit that happens in the game.
Robot Pants
Member
Yep sure does
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Depends on how much a game focuses on story. Ninja Gaiden 3 has a bad story, and the game has a strong focus on it. It's definitely going to get criticized for that aspect of it.
Despite what some people say here. I don't think MGSV should get docked for having a "poor" story. The only intrusive part of the story is the opening and ending. The rest of the cutscenes are short, and the greater details are in optional cassette tapes.
Despite what some people say here. I don't think MGSV should get docked for having a "poor" story. The only intrusive part of the story is the opening and ending. The rest of the cutscenes are short, and the greater details are in optional cassette tapes.