Vampire Savior, Soul Calibur II, Capcom vs SNK 2, KOF 98, KOF 2002, 3rd Strike, Virtual Fighter 4 just off the top of my head.
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Does competitive Melee have a future?
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
Vampire Savior, Soul Calibur II, Capcom vs SNK 2, KOF 98, KOF 2002, 3rd Strike, Virtual Fighter 4 just off the top of my head.
Renna Hazel
Member
Oh well, no biggie. If Melee ever gets rereleased with online, we can fight in that instead.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
People who think Melee players are these serious stubborn weirdos who only care about esoteric game bugs are so off base. Maybe just watching the wrong people?
This guy is very good at the target tests and stadium stuff, as well as being good at a lot of less common characters, as well as being a top 10 ranked player who is more passionate about it than most people while being one of the nicest e-sport personalities out there.
Its not just the competitive fighting game aspect that never came back. The single player things you could do are still sorely missed.
This guy is very good at the target tests and stadium stuff, as well as being good at a lot of less common characters, as well as being a top 10 ranked player who is more passionate about it than most people while being one of the nicest e-sport personalities out there.
Its not just the competitive fighting game aspect that never came back. The single player things you could do are still sorely missed.
If you just wanna play for fun I'm down for some Melee netplay! Can PM and add you on Discord or whatever. I thought you were mad at me 'cause you thought I was shitting on 4 or being arrogant about it lol. I can play Smash 4 too I just need to grab my setup from my friend's house first.
Don't wanna clog up the thread.
Apeopleman
Member
Why doesn't Nintendo just make a remastered version of Smash Melee?
It would sell well, and would get rid of the needing a CRTV issue.
It would sell well, and would get rid of the needing a CRTV issue.
This is some high level sarcasm..
MajinSweet4
Member
What a strange post.
If you're wondering if they're still being played, check out Combo Breaker, a major tournament in the Chicago area that was held in May.
Renna Hazel
Member
Oh no, I wasn't mad. I just saw you say you were really confident in your Smash 4 skills so I wanted to play you. I'm always looking to fight someone better than me.
I don't play Melee online, we will have to wait for that HD rerelease from Nintendo
Oh hey I actually didn't know that there were so many older games at Combo Breaker, that's rad. Smash was there too but I didn't see those streams haha.
Out of curiosity was there any presence at CEO? I don't really know how important it is to other FGC games but I went for Smash 4 last year and don't remember seeing too much old stuff. Very well could have just missed them though.
irfaanator
Banned
sounds like someone doesnt actually follow competitive fighting games. probably best not to post about them
Probably only casuals. CEO's seems to be following EVO's approach of trying to limit the number of main games. My main experience are tournaments in west coast, so usually it's just side tournaments that (still draw a decent amount of people) for games like Super Turbo.
And just to riff on the competitive aspect that's being kinda questioned at the moment. Being competitive is not synonymous with eSports. eSports is trying to make a large amount of money on the production and popularity of an event or game.
All a game has to do become competitive are if people are willing to enter a tournament and play and if the tournament finishes. People play games to have fun. A competition is just another vehicle for that to happen.
MajinSweet4
Member
By that criteria Melee is essentially going to be around forever. So I'm not really sure that's what the thread is about.
WonderRade
Member
I am a smash player who has been going to smash tournaments for every game except 64. Here are my thoughts
This game has enough peeps playing it and good enough storylines to keep it healthy for some time.
Melee has two fates
1. Entropy EVENTUALLY gets to it and peeps move on after a while
2. Some new game comes out that has enough wow factor and feels good enough to get people to switch
1 is far more likely as 2 is something that can probably only be done by nintendo or some triple AAA company, but its such a targeted market thats its difficult to invest.
Also if the notion of this "old" and "broken" game existing and thriving confuse and aggravate you, I invite you too look up vanilla wow servers and look at that can of worms.
This game has enough peeps playing it and good enough storylines to keep it healthy for some time.
Melee has two fates
1. Entropy EVENTUALLY gets to it and peeps move on after a while
2. Some new game comes out that has enough wow factor and feels good enough to get people to switch
1 is far more likely as 2 is something that can probably only be done by nintendo or some triple AAA company, but its such a targeted market thats its difficult to invest.
Also if the notion of this "old" and "broken" game existing and thriving confuse and aggravate you, I invite you too look up vanilla wow servers and look at that can of worms.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
I think what separates it from traditional fighters entirely is the really high variance of what can actually happen. We're getting years and years of top10 plays and top10 (like the fifth top 10 Randall cloud shenanigans?) and they never repeat because the crazy party game physics create seemingly endless scenarios on an engine that also works really well as a fighting game.
I could be wrong, if people were still discovering new things all the time for Soul Calibur 2 16 years later.
Falling on deaf ears I guess.
I could be wrong, if people were still discovering new things all the time for Soul Calibur 2 16 years later.
Falling on deaf ears I guess.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Despite what so many people around here say, Melee is actually among the most popular fighting games, in terms of major tournament entrants and viewers. And it manages that in spite of the limiting factors surrounding the game - requiring old hardware, CRTs, imperfect controllers, etc.
There is actually some discussion to be had about the future of Melee because I think the game and community are on the brink of some major and potentially divisive changes (debate over the Hax mod is going to get intense now that it's available as a memory card mod and can easily be made widely available, and it's going to make the Smashbox controller debate even more intense than it already is), but I genuinely don't think GAF is the place for it. Any real discussion will be quickly derailed by threadshitting as usual.
AdropOFvenom
Neo Member
I can see it now....
Nintendo: Nintendo is pleased to announce Super Smash Bros Melee HD....
Smash Community: (Screaming with joy)
Nintendo: ....with 6 new characters, 8 new stages, and we fixed all the bugs we know of and added balance patches.
Smash Community: Sets internet on fire with rage, goes back to playing Melee.
Harken Raiser
Banned
LMAO, I'm going to use these next time I need to talk shit on Melee.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Depends what balances were implemented if anything. Nobody would miss the actual bugs.
Just watch up until top 8 or something.
I usually skip finals/grand finals because yeah it's usually the same couple people, but everything before that is usually great once you get past pools.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
CEO was full of last stock game 5's
including matchups that are super stacked like axe vs hungrybox. The gap is closing, not growing (Armada still seems like #1 solidly for now)
I imagine most Melee players would be fine with those types of changes as long as it didn't fundamentally change the game. Like if they added a balance patch that removed the Ice Climbers ability to Wobble but buffed them in other ways I think most people would love that. Same with the stage since a lot of players don't really like Pokemon Stadium, so having an new alternative could be great.
Of course those types of changes would never happen. The only thing I could see happen is that they use the European version of the game
This is a bizarre complaint. Of course people who are better at the game are going to have at least some advantage.
And L-canceling, one of the most obvious ways a skilled player can be faster, is not even an exploit or a glitch. It's an intentional mechanic that's been around since Smash 64.
Brainfreeze
Member
Melee makes Neogaf turn into Gamefaq. Esports in general brings out some really ignorant parts of this forum, but Melee discussions always seem especially embarrassing.
Melee will be fine for the forseeable future. It's not growing as much now as it was a couple years ago, but it's in a good, solid spot in terms of size and overall health. There are some serious topics being debated by the community right now, and I think now more than ever a Melee HD could have a drastic effect on the direction of the competitive scene, but no matter what way any of that goes the scene will still be kicking for at least another few years.
And, for about the thousandth time, anyone who comes into these topics claiming that Melee players will cry if they can't glitch or use bugs are just proudly showing their ignorance to everyone and making their opinions less valuable. At most, competitive Melee players are "exploiting" already existing systems past the point that the developers expected them to be used in order to play the game faster and more precisely. Very rarely are players breaking the game, unless you count hacks that fix bugs and add features (which are currently only used for practice and not in tournament). Melee could definitely be recreated, remastered, or have a sequel that builds on these systems and removes all of the glitches and people would be very happy. Nintendo doesn't want to do this, but it's not weird or crazy or outdated or any other derogatory term that people love and enjoy this game at a high level.
Melee will be fine for the forseeable future. It's not growing as much now as it was a couple years ago, but it's in a good, solid spot in terms of size and overall health. There are some serious topics being debated by the community right now, and I think now more than ever a Melee HD could have a drastic effect on the direction of the competitive scene, but no matter what way any of that goes the scene will still be kicking for at least another few years.
And, for about the thousandth time, anyone who comes into these topics claiming that Melee players will cry if they can't glitch or use bugs are just proudly showing their ignorance to everyone and making their opinions less valuable. At most, competitive Melee players are "exploiting" already existing systems past the point that the developers expected them to be used in order to play the game faster and more precisely. Very rarely are players breaking the game, unless you count hacks that fix bugs and add features (which are currently only used for practice and not in tournament). Melee could definitely be recreated, remastered, or have a sequel that builds on these systems and removes all of the glitches and people would be very happy. Nintendo doesn't want to do this, but it's not weird or crazy or outdated or any other derogatory term that people love and enjoy this game at a high level.
Why would Melee players be upset about the bugs being removed? Balance patches I could see upsetting people depending on how nerfed the top tiers are.
Because a not inconsiderable number of higher level techniques rely on numerous glitches/unintend functionality within the engine.
This is to the point where to some the "best" controllers to play the game on are, in and of themselves, glitched (and also increasingly rarer to find).
Or, to put it another way: Competitive melee itself is basically one big glitch, and would not exist if Melee was a relatively bug-free experience. Base melee is not, by any means, a competitive fighting game.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
name one.
A glitch is a bit different from "When you air dash into a surface, you keep your horizontal momentum."
I use the term "glitch" for ease of explanation, as most of these would be better defined as clever uses of existing systems that were not exactly intended by the game designers. It admittedly will depend on where one draws the line on "intended vs unintended functionality," and I'd argue the only thing that'd be "fixed" as a glitch would be wobbling, but..
Wobbling (ice climbers attacks being desynced in that matter is not intended behavior, outright glitch)
Wavedashing and all techniques which rely upon it (Not a glitch, but rather an abuse of the physics engine )
SHFFL (again, relies on functionality that is not quite the intended use)
Most of these were removed in future smash installments (wobbling made an appearance in brawl but was, in the most technical sense, fixed in Smash for 3ds/wiiu), and a re-mastering of the game...well, I wouldn't say it'd be on purpose, but wavedashing is the most crucial technique to making melee even interesting and it was a completely unintentional quirk of the physic engine. I seriously doubt nintendo would go out of their way to keep it in for a re-master (we can look at OoT and MJ for the 3ds to see that they likely just write the game from scratch during a re-master.), and melee is a super, SUPER slow game without it.
Edit: Or in other words: If we want to be specific about wording, no, most of them are not glitches (save the controller stuff), but they're techniques which utilize aspects of the game engine in unintentional ways that a re-master most likely would not include as they are facets of the game that nintendo intentionally kept out of/removed from future installments.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Basic mechanics that have always been intended like Dashing, air momentum, how long moves stun you for, Directional Air Dodge, precise edge grabs, L cancelling, the melee shield mechanics etc are what made it competitive, and still would be even without exploring the potential of the engines physics ie wavedash.
More people want wobbling gone than not.
Wavedashing was known about by the developers.
SHFFL is just fast falling and L cancelling? why is this even listed? quite a reach
This reads like you just googled "advanced melee techniques"
Even if you think wavedashing is weird, to remove it would be to remove the directional air dodge, which is not happening.
MajinSweet4
Member
Wait. so you think short hopping, fast falling and L canceling were not "intended use". Things that are blatantly hard coded features in the game. Hell, the L cancel in Melee is a rebalanced version from 64. The computer even occasionally shffls.
Why would that be?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Removing wobbling could probably be done without changing much of anything else, similar to how PM was able to do it.
Removing wavedashing (or SHFFL, but lol at that) would likely have other consequences and change other parts of the game as well.
But in the end, why would they bother making those kind of changes regardless of original intent? If Melee was remastered, the primary audience would be the people that are still playing and watching the game now. GAF laughs it off as "dozens of us!" but major tournaments get viewers well into the quintuple digits with the biggest supermajors breaking 100k. Why on earth would they make changes explicitly intended to spite those people? Why would you intentionally release a game that you know is not going to please your target audience?
The only logic would be unprecedented stupidity, or malice. Release a really shitty Melee remaster to fracture the community and maybe they will finally move on!
Removing wavedashing (or SHFFL, but lol at that) would likely have other consequences and change other parts of the game as well.
But in the end, why would they bother making those kind of changes regardless of original intent? If Melee was remastered, the primary audience would be the people that are still playing and watching the game now. GAF laughs it off as "dozens of us!" but major tournaments get viewers well into the quintuple digits with the biggest supermajors breaking 100k. Why on earth would they make changes explicitly intended to spite those people? Why would you intentionally release a game that you know is not going to please your target audience?
The only logic would be unprecedented stupidity, or malice. Release a really shitty Melee remaster to fracture the community and maybe they will finally move on!
and to all this, add momentum conservation (before SHFFLs, people tend to run for an instant, then jump, so that the momentum from the run allows them to jump further). Thanks to this feature, people can approach with jumps from further away, or event do cross-ups (jump towards your oponent, but land behind him, to make it harder for him to punish you). Momentum conservation, like many other of the completely intended mechanics that separate melee from the newer smash games, hasn't make a come back since melee, and it's very important for melee reliance on using aerials as an approach.
I will fully admit I haven't watched competitive melee in about... two years?, and I was only ever a watcher (my hands aren't really up to snuff for fighters in general, much less melee), so I must apologize for inaccurate information and mis-remembering. But my argument here is that Nintendo would likely re-write the physics engine from scratch, which would in turn mean those techniques would become harder or impossible, and likely be closer to or resemble the physics in the latest smash game.
Melee was intended to be a simple party fighter and it's a serious reach to assume that the current movement options competitive players are able to perform in it were ever intended by Nintendo, doubly so when future installments of the series intentionally curtailed said elements. It would have been preferable if nintendo had embraced said elements, as they make melee a much more interesting game, but even though they intentionally left them in, it was likely without realization that the scene would - well, become what it is now, which would explain why nintendo backpedaled so hard in future installments and why I'm saying they'd most likely have those elements curtailed from a re-make.
It's not because they'd cut them out, per se. It's because they rely on elements of the physics engine that were side-effects, that most likely would not be intentionally written into a re-master due to nintendo's refusal to embrace them in future installments (most likely because they want smash to be a party fighter which still resembles the core gameplay at higher levels as opposed to how melee just becomes an entirely separate game once you become competitive with it).
This is all a damn shame and I really wish they would, but at the same time it'd be disingenuous for people to get their hopes up simply because nintendo, at one point, intentionally left this stuff in. That'd be ignoring their approach to the series after melee, and the fact that a melee re-make would likely be targeted to smash fans as a whole, and not the melee fanbase.
Melee was intended to be a simple party fighter and it's a serious reach to assume that the current movement options competitive players are able to perform in it were ever intended by Nintendo, doubly so when future installments of the series intentionally curtailed said elements. It would have been preferable if nintendo had embraced said elements, as they make melee a much more interesting game, but even though they intentionally left them in, it was likely without realization that the scene would - well, become what it is now, which would explain why nintendo backpedaled so hard in future installments and why I'm saying they'd most likely have those elements curtailed from a re-make.
It's not because they'd cut them out, per se. It's because they rely on elements of the physics engine that were side-effects, that most likely would not be intentionally written into a re-master due to nintendo's refusal to embrace them in future installments (most likely because they want smash to be a party fighter which still resembles the core gameplay at higher levels as opposed to how melee just becomes an entirely separate game once you become competitive with it).
This is all a damn shame and I really wish they would, but at the same time it'd be disingenuous for people to get their hopes up simply because nintendo, at one point, intentionally left this stuff in. That'd be ignoring their approach to the series after melee, and the fact that a melee re-make would likely be targeted to smash fans as a whole, and not the melee fanbase.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Wavedashing being the only reason melee is fast is just 100% gibberish.
Its a spacing/movement tool but also often slower than dashing for a lot of characters.
I have to guess people just like to pretend they know what they're talking about while anyone who has a clue just sees it as ignorant.
That's called a new Smash Bros game
Not sure why you believe Nintendo would bother gutting an existing game just to resell it.
Its a spacing/movement tool but also often slower than dashing for a lot of characters.
I have to guess people just like to pretend they know what they're talking about while anyone who has a clue just sees it as ignorant.
That's called a new Smash Bros game
Not sure why you believe Nintendo would bother gutting an existing game just to resell it.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
This. Not to mention that wavedashing at early stages of learning the game puts you in a disadvantageous position 9 times out of 10.
It kind of sucks that so many people can't see past this one advanced tech. Theres so much crazier shit in melee than wavedashing. At least pick something more creative if you're gonna bitch.
Don't wavedash into a crouched Peach, kiddies.
Calm Mind
Member
It has a future just not the one the OP or many Melee purists envision. It's pretty much stationary at best. Someone in this very thread scoffed at the thought of supporting a developer yet you have Hungrybox ranting about how Nintendo should recognize the Melee community. You can't have both.
Compromise or demise. Choose wisely!
On a more personal note, Melee purists need to get better at the game they love so much. The top 8 has become so predictable that I have skipped watching the last 5 majors.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
which "issues" would be fixed?
Ganon on ice is a really weird thing too (but I love it)
"melee purists" are good to the point where they're consistently placing. Sounds like you'd rather have the "melee purists" get worse?
The gap between the top and everyone below them is constantly shrinking, and I think youd have to be intentionally ignoring recent events to say otherwise.
Again, I do apologize for my lack of being able to response which can encapsulate exactly what was changed from melee in future installments, but put a match of melee, and a match of smash 3ds/wii u (or even brawl, as much of a travesty as that was) side by side, and that'll make the point far better than anything I could say ever could.
A melee re-master would almost certainly, under nintendo's current approach to smash, fail to be able to replicate how Melee's currently played since they most likely will not go out of their way to perfectly 1:1 replicate melee's physics.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
MajinSweet4
Member
So Nintendo would remaster Mario 64 and make it play like Sunshine? Or something?
IchigoSharingan
Member
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