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[Fusebox]

literally neither of the posts you quoted communicates this in any way. you're shooting at nothing, here.

Oh ok, my bad I thought when he said this...

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

..he was literally implying Atheists didn't treat women well. Did he literally mean the opposite?

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

No.

Islam introduced Women's rights while Europe was still in it's dark ages burning and drowning women for being witches.

This is your answer.

And I have a sneaking suspicion this won't end well.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

In any meaningful sense of the word Christianity has evolved over the last several centuries. You can say that that evolution is really just "deviations from scripture", but that doesn't change the fact that the mass held beliefs of self identifying Christians have changed dramatically

This was probably due to the world changing around Christianity and not Christianity wanting to better itself.

 

[Two Words]

His question wasn't "which oppresses more" but rather is female oppression something inherent to religion.

The answer is no, oppression of females is something inherent to society. Religious institutes just take advantage of it without shame, while secular institutes like to make obfuscate the entire thing.

I asked if it was inherent to a specific religion.

 

[dorkkaos]

well maybe but "put down" verbally is a bit different that, say, not being able to drive a car in public

Right. But things like the 10 commandments are integral to Christianity, for example. You wouldn't say it was a tool since it is fundamental to Christianity. I'm trying to figure out where Islam and women oppression lands.

That's no way comparable to apostasy leading to death or women being treated as a commodity.

Kind of hard to compare really when there hasn't been a real strong atheist majority anywhere (afaik, or was the soviet union considered one?). Anyone who's a dick or a tool can cling on any "evidence" to prove their point of view and oppress others. I remember scientists before using cranial size as a reason for racism against africans, etc.

I see religion as a product of its time and as we become more open minded, so should religions evolve to reflect that. Same reason why a lot of Muslims and Christians in America don't oppress women. Basically, if a person is raised to think one way all their life, it's not exactly easy for them to suddenly change their minds and act another way. They will cling on anything as proof that their way of thinking is correct.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

I remember seeing pictures of Afghanistan pre-1970's, before all the conflict/rise of the Taliban, and let's just say it seemed a hell of a lot better for woman then that it does now, for everyone really.

 

[The Technomancer]

This was probably due to the world changing around Christianity and not Christianity wanting to better itself.

I mean...sure? I feel like we're being a bit pedantic here, do people disagree with my original assertion that Islam as a source of influence, and what we mean by that is "the active practices and acted on beliefs of the majority of self-identifying Muslims", can change to be less oppressive towards woman and others?

 

[IAmRandom31]

All these answers so far stem from personal opinion. There is a book that one could read called the Quran to see if there is anything in there that could be used as a means to allow oppression of women to the extent that you see in the current Middle East ( certain parts anyway ).

 

[Basileus777]

It does, much like most religions. Modern societies in in other lands have just progressed to the point of ignoring the traditional parts of their religion (to various success) that advocate the same things. Selective interpretation of religion is societal necessity when it comes to this.

 

[Angelus Errare]

I asked if it was inherent to a specific religion.

The answer remains the same.

 

[samn]

An awful lot of hand-wringing 'ooh it's just a tool, they'd try to oppress women anyway'.

If so, then it's proved a pretty darn effective 'tool'.

 

[The Technomancer]

All these answers so far stem from personal opinion. There is a book that one could read called the Quran to see if there is anything in there that could be used as a means to allow oppression of women to the extent that you see in the current Middle East ( certain parts anyway ).

If you ran this test on Christianity based on the Bible you would assume the exact same thing about its "inherent oppression". Religion is more than just its text, and that's literally always been the case

To be clear here, I'm hung up on the idea of "inherent"

 

[Angelus Errare]

An awful lot of hand-wringing 'ooh it's just a tool, they'd try to oppress women anyway'.

If so, then it's proved a pretty darn effective 'tool'.

Tools tend to be effective at what they do, yes.

 

[Miles X]

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

I wasn't aware there was some sort of bible we athiests lived by???

 

[dorkkaos]

Yeah, as an atheist I make sure to spend a lot of time trying to prevent women from driving and making sure they cover their face.

:/

Look I get there's this whole dipshit atheist-gamer-mens-rights subsection but the idea that atheism has some kind of monopoly (or any kind of statistical presence) on treating women badly is just really shitty discourse of the most unhelpful kind.

I'm an Atheist too. I'm not saying atheism has a monopoly on treating women badly. I'm saying that even without religion, some people will still be shit people.

 

[Gr1mLock]

Yes.

 

[Condom]

Not inherently, no. It depends on what you understand as oppressing really.

 

[Tenebrous]

I wasn't aware there was some sort of bible we athiests lived by???

That's why we have no morals and must treat women like shit, of course.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

No.

Islam introduced Women's rights while Europe was still in it's dark ages burning and drowning women for being witches.

Can you develop this? I'm pretty sure the Greeks and Romans introduced Women's rights.

 

[Breraa]

But there's been a few changes since then in both parts of the world.

It clearly answers the OP's question in that Islam does not inherently oppress women.

In fact many of it's earliest converts were women.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Of course it does.

Many of the others do too, but that wasn't your question.

So many people will answer this with a qualification or clarification aimed at essential dismissing of deflecting it.

"all religions do"
"society is sexist it reflects society"
"It promoted women when others didn't * 1500 years ago"
"Women are revered in this religion"
"Aspect "x" is a choice not a compulsion"
"Aspect "y" is a cultural issue not religious"

The worst are those on the left/progressive/"liberal" side who paint these equivalence, or brush serious issues under the carpet.

 

[Mecha]

The thing is religion don't evolve. Words written in the text have to be taken literally. It's not changeable. Only thing that can change here is that people stop taking things literally in the book and instead start using some common sense.

It really depends on the religion and sect. A vast amount of Mahayana Buddhists don't take the texts literally, a lot of the content in the sutras are considered to be symbolic and it's recommended by many Mahayana teachers to use what fits with you. Jainism is somewhat similar, the religion blatantly tells people to not blindly believe anything, including things taught in Jainism. Hinduism also has some largely symbolic works like the Bhagavad Gita, and there isn't one "true way" to be a Hindu or one "true way" to follow the religion.

I'll only bring those religions up because I have looked into them the most, but I'm pretty sure they aren't the only religions that people don't have to take literally.

 

[Fusebox]

I'm an Atheist too. I'm not saying atheism has a monopoly on treating women badly. I'm saying that even without religion, some people will still be shit people.

So you're an Atheist, but you won't rule out the possibility that Atheists might collectively agree to kill women or treat them as a commodity because "Kind of hard to compare really when there hasn't been a real strong atheist majority anywhere"..?

Your conviction is overwhelming.

 

[samn]

Tools tend to be effective at what they do, yes.

At what they're intended to do, in particular.

 

[marrec]

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

The reason I brought us into the conversation is to illustrate that it's not religion that has made oppressing women a national sport, it's men. Anywhere you find men in power you will most likely find a doctrine of oppressing women.

Lower your fedoras I mean you no harm.

 

[Basileus777]

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

What is the atheist community? Shitty sub-reddits?

 

[MC Safety]

Islam as represented by sharia law is incredibly oppressive to women.

Whether the religion itself is inherently oppressive isn't as important as how it's being applied across the globe.

 

[Monocle]

Inasmuch as any other religion does yes. Orthodox Judaism is in many ways the most oppressive to women practicing and certain sects of christianity are almost as strict in dress and power available.

And we all know how Atheists/neo-Libertarians treat women.

What I'm saying is, society oppresses women.

Hi, I'm an atheist. Tell me how I treat women.

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

The reason I brought us into the conversation is to illustrate that it's not religion that has made oppressing women a national sport, it's men. Anywhere you find men in power you will most likely find a doctrine of oppressing women.

Lower your fedoras I mean you no harm.

What's a "practicing" atheist, and where is this community I'm supposed to belong to? Am I not a real atheist unless I join?

 

[dorkkaos]

So you're an Atheist, but you won't rule out the possibility that Atheists might collectively agree to kill women or treat them as a commodity because "Kind of hard to compare really when there hasn't been a real strong atheist majority anywhere"..?

Your conviction is overwhelming.

Of course I won't, people can be real idiots, or power hungry, atheist or otherwise.

 

[marrec]

What is the atheist community? Shitty sub-reddits?

Any organization of atheists. Conventions, forums, subreddits, youtubers. It's the organization part that makes fertile ground for oppressions, not the religion part.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/it_didnt_always_suck_to_be_a_woman_in_afghanistan

Woman in Afghanistan in the 1960's. So, it would see it's not religion per-say that is the problem but the fundamentalist with zero common sense, zero empathy obtaining power and brute-forcing a far more conservative(to put it lightly) landscape for women in the religion, especially in certain middle-eastern territories.

 

[Africanus]

I asked if it was inherent to a specific religion.

No. Most popular religions/doctrines (such as Buddhism or Confucianism) have some sort of patriarchal roots to it.
Filial piety. The command for wives to be in subjection to their husbands. The covering of women rather than men. The abandonment of women with their children to become monks.

Islam oppresses women as it was drafted as a product of its society. However, the current Islam oppression is the result of the re-birth of Wahabbism in the 1970s.



As a side note, let us not get into the nonsense that atheism is a belief system. Atheists are most likely to be random Han Chinese people than reddit users.

 

[marrec]

Hi, I'm an atheist. Tell me how I treat women.


What's a "practicing" atheist, and where is this community I'm supposed to belong to? Am I not a real atheist unless I join?

Jesus lighten up. The "practicing" part was obviously a joke.

And you don't get invited to be a real atheist unless you can take a joke or be self-aware of a patriarchal society's inherent flaws.

 

[superseohyun]

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

The reason I brought us into the conversation is to illustrate that it's not religion that has made oppressing women a national sport, it's men. Anywhere you find men in power you will most likely find a doctrine of oppressing women.

Lower your fedoras I mean you no harm.

holy shit i didnt know this. Is there any relation between not believeing in a god and treating women badly?

 

[GameAddict411]

the idea of that the radicalized treatment of women in the Middle East has been a more recent (latter 20th century) development is something i've just recently been exposed to, thanks for sharing this.

it was this image of a supposedly Iranian woman in the 1960s that started this process for me:

Iran was under a secular regime at the time. That completely changed after the revolution.

 

[Gurthang]

Woman in Afghanistan in the 1960's. So, it would see it's not religion per-say that is the problem but the fundamentalist with zero common sense, zero empathy obtaining power and brute-forcing a far more conservative(to put it lightly) landscape for women in the religion, especially in certain middle-eastern territories.

Religions change over time. What matters is the current state of Islamic countries. And the answer would be yes, Islam does oppress women.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

I think you might be doing it wrong.

 

[Loona]

I read a translated Koran about 15 years ago and all I can remember on that topic was a part about women covering themselves which didn't seem all that specific about what should be covered - for all I know it could be interpreted as "don't go out naked", which is good advice regardless of gender.

This is a topic that's been on my mind a lot more since I've moved to the Netherlands - in the city I live in women in hijabs are a fairly common site compared to Portugal, and I can't help but wonder what goes through their minds the first 100 or so times when they put it on, before it becomes something of a habit... I wonder if there's a compilation of testimonials from several young muslims girls about it, it might help me get some perspective on it...

The one time I've been to a primarily muslim coutry was a very brief stay in Morocco, and from that, the hijab seemed like something pretty optional, not unlike the choice between skirts and pants.

When I read the new Kamala Khan Ms Marvel comic, it was interesting to read that a friend of hers used her hijab against her parents's wishes, who saw it as something of a phase - a possibility that hadn't really crossed my mind before, but then again, it's a cultural climate I'm not really immersed in.

Maybe for some girls and women it's a matter of wearing a flag of faith, or mantle of modesty, or a token of tradition - it's an option I can respect, although I don't fully understand, coming from a country where non-practicing christianity is taken for granted.

 

[thefit]

Any organization of atheists. Conventions, forums, subreddits, youtubers. It's the organization part that makes fertile ground for oppressions, not the religion part.

Those are just assholes not atheists.

 

[Zoned]

It really depends on the religion and sect. A vast amount of Mahayana Buddhists don't take the texts literally, a lot of the content in the sutras are considered to be symbolic and it's recommended by many Mahayana teachers to use what fits with you. Jainism is somewhat similar, the religion blatantly tells people to not blindly believe anything, including things taught in Jainism. Hinduism also has some largely symbolic works like the Bhagavad Gita, and there isn't one "true way" to be a Hindu or one "true way" to follow the religion.

I'll only bring those religions up because I have looked into them the most, but I'm pretty sure they aren't the only religions that people don't have to take literally.

Abrahamic religions are completely different from Hinduism. Former is Orthodoxy whereas the latter is Orthopraxy. In other words, abrahamic religions focus on belief whereas Polytheism religion like Hinduism is about practice. Hinduism is more about way of living. It depends on the deity and it's culture that you are following. Whereas in monotheistic traditions, following the words of god written in the book is the way to live.

 

[Two Words]

Not inherently, no. It depends on what you understand as oppressing really.

What do you mean by that? The wording makes it sounds like you're saying "depends what you considered oppression is?"

 

[The Technomancer]

Religions change over time. What matters is the current state of Islamic countries. And the answer would be yes, Islam does oppress women.

Yup. But that's not what the OP is asking

 

[MayMay]

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

The reason I brought us into the conversation is to illustrate that it's not religion that has made oppressing women a national sport, it's men. Anywhere you find men in power you will most likely find a doctrine of oppressing women.

Lower your fedoras I mean you no harm.

?

wat

 

[Zoned]

:lol at the Atheists rushing to #notallatheists

Listen, I'm an avowed and practicing Atheist and have been for a very long time.

The atheist community is rotten with misogyny, to the core.

The reason I brought us into the conversation is to illustrate that it's not religion that has made oppressing women a national sport, it's men. Anywhere you find men in power you will most likely find a doctrine of oppressing women.

Lower your fedoras I mean you no harm.

Get the fuck outta here with your blatant generalization. What an idiotic post.

 

[Monocle]

Any organization of atheists. Conventions, forums, subreddits, youtubers. It's the organization part that makes fertile ground for oppressions, not the religion part.

Oh, so you mean completely independent groups who represent a minuscule fraction of unbelievers.

Jesus lighten up. The "practicing" part was obviously a joke.

And you don't get invited to be a real atheist unless you can take a joke or be self-aware of a patriarchal society's inherent flaws.

I thought we were discussing traits inherent to atheists as a whole, apart from the symptoms of living in a patriarchal society.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

The idea that atheists wouldn't oppress women because they don't believe in a religion is the most nonsensical shit some of you have ever argued. Men oppress women because men believe that they are superior to women, your religious leaning doesn't really come into play, it only serves as a platform to enforce your view on the genders. The idea that an atheist wouldn't oppress a woman is dumb and you should feel dumb for thinking such a thing. It's the equivalent of thinking someone who is liberal can't be racist.



His question wasn't "which oppresses more" but rather is female oppression something inherent to religion.

The answer is no, oppression of females is something inherent to society. Religious institutes just take advantage of it without shame, while secular institutes like to make obfuscate the entire thing.

Of course religion isn't the sole cause for oppression, but it is part of it. It's a cooked up practice to gain control but it's beliefs and practices legitimize a lot of oppression. It's a "he led and I followed" problem where both are wrong and cause problems of their own. We can pin point it back to male dominance but our creations do give and bolster certain ideas which can be labeled as source. For example, we can chalk up gun violence to just a shitty society but we can identity the problem is guns because having so many around causes so many problems of their own.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

"avowed and practicing Atheist"

lol, who says that.

 

[marrec]

You know what I notice?

A distinct lack of practitioners of Islam rushing in to say #notallmuslims.

Y'all wanna stick your heads in the sand that's fine. Never did I call anyone in this thread a inherent oppressor of women and your blind rush to defend yourselves as non-misogynists has obfuscated the point that patriarchal organizations and societies will oppress women regardless of any religious component.

Now y'all can go back to bagging on specific religions alright?

 

[thefit]

Wtf are you babbling about marrec? Practicing atheist? Wtf is that?

 

[The Technomancer]

I read a translated Koran about 15 years ago and all I can remember on that topic was a part about women covering themselves which didn't seem all that specific about what should be covered - for all I know it could be interpreted as "don't go out naked", which is good advice regardless of gender.

This is a topic that's been on my mind a lot more since I've moved to the Netherlands - in the city I live in women in hijabs are a fairly common site compared to Portugal, and I can't help but wonder what goes through their minds the first 100 or so times when they put it on, before it becomes something of a habit... I wonder if there's a compilation of testimonials from several young muslims girls about it, it might help me get some perspective on it...

The one time I've been to a primarily muslim coutry was a very brief stay in Morocco, and from that, the hijab seemed like something pretty optional, not unlike the choice between skirts and pants.

When I read the new Kamala Khan Ms Marvel comic, it was interesting to read that a friend of hers used her hijab against her parents's wishes, who saw it as something of a phase - a possibility that hadn't really crossed my mind before, but then again, it's a cultural climate I'm not really immersed in.

Maybe for some girls and women it's a matter of wearing a flag of faith, or mantle of modesty, or a token of tradition - it's an option I can respect, although I don't fully understand, coming from a country where non-practicing christianity is taken for granted.

Yeah I think its dangerous to see something like the hijab and instantly assume its a sign of oppression. Living in Minneapolis for 5 years kind of opened my eyes, in particular to how many female students at the University wore them. Generally speaking "pursuing a university education" doesn't go hand in hand with typical ideas of "oppression", which isn't to say that maybe it wasn't, just that maybe its more complicated