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[chaosblade]

I'll say it again, a vertical PS4 would be the equivalent of first example in that Noctua pic. Watch the heatpipes when he flips it.

I don't own a PS4 yet, but the ports are on the bottom when it's vertical right? The heatpipes are clearly coming from the top as far as I can tell in the GIF you posted. But it looks like they also curve on the other side and loop around, which is weird (I think I've seen some GPUs do that? But they were horizontal).

 

[xanavi]

I'll say it again, a vertical PS4 would be the equivalent of first example in that Noctua pic.

Nope, you are still wrong here.

 

[Gnorman]

Some great information in this thread about heat pipe orientation regardless of the operation of the PS4. Obviously it's something to take into consideration.

I wonder if the engineers were aware of the potential difference.

Really? It's their job to know these things. Are you seriously suggesting that they don't understand how cooling works?

 

[artist]

No it's not. I completed the drawing for you.

The U bend is at the top of the heatsink.

Sigh;

I don't own a PS4 yet, but the ports are on the bottom when it's vertical right? The heatpipes are clearly coming from the top as far as I can tell in the GIF you posted. But it looks like they also curve on the other side and loop around, which is weird (I think I've seen some GPUs do that? But they were horizontal aside from the curve).

Atleast someone else can see it besides me.

 

[Can Crusher]

I was afraid this would be negative for horizontal when I saw the title. I'm glad horizontal doesn't suffer because of my cat... can't have it vertical.

 

[Mononoke]

There's evidence they run hot, but not unreasonably so.

That's about 60 degree Celsius at it's hottest point, which isn't outlandish, but it slightly troubling.

Strange, mine never gets that hot. I've played 12 + hours at one sitting, and I never hear a single noise, and the heat gets no where close to my 360/PS3 or even PC.

Troubling? Really?

 

[GillianSeed79]

The OP was pretty clear, and its extremely embarrassing to read the posts after it.

I think a good next step would be for anyone with PS4s and the official vertical stand to get decibel readings for their PS4s in both horizontal and vertical, with as large of a sample size as possible since some people claim their fans dont run as loud and some say they sound like jet engines.

That would actually be cool even if it were just a few samples. I have mine horizontal and it runs super quiet, but then again I've read impressions from others who say they have loud fan sounds. Granted, I'm coming from an original PS3 phat and early 360 Pro model, so both of those ran super loud (probably dust and dirt on my part).

I wonder if it has something to do with vibrations? Probably not.

I used to put my consoles vertical for purely aesthetic reasons, but have had issues in the past doing that. I considered doing it with the PS4 since its design reminds of the PS2, but I don't think it will fit in my entertainment center vertical.

Also, apologies OP for my original post in this thread.

 

[BakaJaNai]

Just tweet @yosp about this and hopefully next version of PS4 will be more perfect. Thats it.

Also im extremely shocked at the amount of uneducated "gaming enthusiasts"(because if you are not - why you post on GAF) in first pages.

Heatpipes are like ABC of high end electronics these days, and understanding how they work is 5-6th grade of any school that pretends its trying to educate children.

 

[Raymo]

There's evidence they run hot, but not unreasonably so.

That's about 60 degree Celsius at it's hottest point, which isn't outlandish, but it slightly troubling.

Not troubling at all. 60 degrees Celsius is fine.

 

[xanavi]

Atleast someone else can see it besides me.

You do realize there is a sizable difference between the bends on either side, right?

 

[renitou]

Then put it horizontally, like 99% of PS4 owners.

Hardly a "design flaw". Just because it's makes a the fans sound a little louder?

Statistics and percentages and snark, oh my.

 

[BakaJaNai]

Not troubling at all. 60 degrees Celsius is fine.

Sigh, you really pretend that 51 db under load is fine when system could run significantly quiter if a little change that will cost nothing was implemented ?

Why people think that OP is attacking their precious PS4 ?

Stop for a second and think a little - this thread is really interesting and 100% justified.

P.S. I also use my consoles vertically, so i will have to deal with PS4 that will work as loud as my PS3 Slim - and it is quite audible.

 

[TheExodu5]

Another poor reference.

A vertical PS4 would be the equivalent of first example in that Noctua pic.

I'm seeing another U-bend at the bottom. Pipes going in both directions? In any case, there are at least 2 pipes working against gravity here.

edit2: sorry, hard to see much of the GIF on my phone. There's at least 2 U-bends at the top and at least one U-bend at the bottom according to my linked picture and this GIF. It would be nice to get a better look at this heatsink...there's not a lot to go on here.

 

[Raonak]

I don't fucking know how heatskins work, but I do know everyone of GAF is wrong, especially people who post threads.

so OP, why do you hate the PS4?

Spoiler

/s - but yeah, OP's theory makes sense, I can't imagine that sony engineers missed it. I wonder if they thought not much people would stand it vertically.

 

[Raymo]

Sigh, you really pretend that 51 db under load is fine when system could run significantly quiter if a little change that will cost nothing was implemented ?

Why people think that OP is attacking their precious PS4 ?

Stop for a second and think a little - this thread is really interesting and 100% justified.

P.S. I also use my consoles vertically, so i will have to deal with PS4 that will work as loud as my PS3 Slim - and it is quite audible.

I was replying to your statement that said 60 degrees is troubling. You didn't relate it at all to a noise problem. I also didn't infer about any certain level of noise being fine. You were strictly addressing the temp.

 

[Xyphie]

This is effectively the second picture in the Noctua chart (i.e. the "bad" one), since the part of the heatpipe actually transferring heat to the heatsink is the upside down U-shape. There's only one heatpipe.

 

[clav]

There's evidence they run hot, but not unreasonably so.

That's about 60 degree Celsius at it's hottest point, which isn't outlandish, but it slightly troubling.

For reference, the first Xbox 360s ran about 65 degrees Celsius IDLE. Imagine the temps under load.

 

[Mindlog]

This is effectively the second picture in the Noctua chart (i.e. the "bad" one), since the part of the heatpipe actually transferring heat to the heatsink is the upside down U-shape. There's only one heatpipe.

That looks about right. The PCPER video is about the most thorough I've found.

If the timestamp code doesn't work then fast forward to 57:30.

 

[TheExodu5]

This is effectively the second picture in the Noctua chart (i.e. the "bad" one), since the part of the heatpipe actually transferring heat to the heatsink is the upside down U-shape. There's only one heatpipe.

Oh wow...yeah that's worse than I thought. I thought it was two heatpipes.

edit: wait...what about the copper protruding out of the bottom left of the first picture?

In any case, seems to me that given that there's a U bend in both directions, a 180 degree rotation wouldn't help at all...it would need to be a 90 degree rotation.

 

[Xyphie]

edit: wait...what about the copper protruding out of the bottom left of the first picture?

I figure it's a mount for the heatsink or something, it doesn't go through THAT heatsink anywhere at least.

 

[Raist]

OK, let's settle this because this is loco.

The heatsink has 2 heatpipes. The U-bend of each heatpipe is in a different orientation. So when the console is standing vertically, one heatpipe has its U-bend on top, the other one bottom.

Yellow: Heatpipe 1
Red: heatpipe 2

The blue arrow is point towards the "top" when the console is standing vertically.

The heatpipe closer to the APU (thus taking in more heat) is in the correct orientation (bend at the bottom).

This is effectively the second picture in the Noctua chart (i.e. the "bad" one), since the part of the heatpipe actually transferring heat to the heatsink is the upside down U-shape. There's only one heatpipe.

And this is wrong, there are 2 heatpipes. It's mentioned by the guy who did the official teardown. Perspective is completely off in your model and refers to two differents parts on the two pictures while using the same colors.

 

[xanavi]

Oh wow...yeah that's worse than I thought. I thought it was two heatpipes.

edit: wait...what about the copper protruding out of the bottom left of the first picture?

To me it looks like there are two, disjoint heatpipes, both in a U-shape.

edit: Yeah, what Raist has illustrated.

 

[tfur]

Just for the record. Nvidia supports 8 (k10, k20 or k40) gpu configurations in a 4u chassis for HPC with the "elbows" in the topmost position. See pictures of those models with static mechanical (no fan) cooling designs.

Using the word design flaw has pretty specific meaning in hardware design and IT related subjects. Unless the questions are answered about expected operational temps and rpms, it is all just conjecture.

It really is about expected operational ranges here. I have nodes 1u with 2 gpu's where one card is 5-7 degree different between the two, because of chassis design. I have nodes 2u with 6 K10 (technically 12 gpus), and temps range from 39-60C during computation in a 64F(17C) room. They are all in the intended temp range and compute 24/7.

This could be tested on the PS4 pretty easily with an amp meter. Strip the cable cover and record periodically in a each position. Keep room temps and humidity constant. Power consumption would give away fan speeds etc. I do not think most metered PDU's show enough significant digits.

 

[Xyphie]

Don't think you can get a more clear picture than this.

There's only one heatpipe going through the heatsink.

 

[TheExodu5]

OK, let's settle this because this is loco.

The heatsink has 2 heatpipes. The U-bend of each heatpipe is in a different orientation. So when the console is standing vertically, one heatpipe has its U-bend on top, the other one bottom.

Yellow: Heatpipe 1
Red: heatpipe 2

The blue arrow is point towards the "top" when the console is standing vertically.

The heatpipe closer to the APU (thus taking in more heat) is in the correct orientation (bend at the bottom).

That makes more sense.

Don't think you can get a more clear picture than this.

There's only one heatpipe going through the heatsink.

We'd need a more angled shot. The other heatpipe could be lying flat there.

 

[xanavi]

Don't think you can get a more clear picture than this.

There's only one heatpipe going through the heatsink.

Yeah, he's saying that the second pipe lays flat at the heatsink's contact point.

 

[chaosblade]

Don't think you can get a more clear picture than this.

There's only one heatpipe going through the heatsink.

I think Raist is right. The red one in his diagram is flat, and as a result you can't see it in this picture (it's obscured since you're looking at it directly from the side).

 

[Raist]

Don't think you can get a more clear picture than this.

There's only one heatpipe going through the heatsink.

There is one heatpipe going through the heatsink. This is the one you see here has a single 180 turn. It's the yellow one in my pics.

The second heatpipe (red) is running below the heatsink.

In your diagram the perspective is totally off, seriously. The red bit in the first pic turns into the yellow bit in the second pic...

 

[Xyphie]

Yeah, Raist's is probably right. Dumb design though. Why wouldn't you center the heatpipe that actually transfers heat above the die instead of off to the side?

Edit: That's what is actually does. Zzz, time for sleep.

 

[goonergaz]

Yeah, Raist's is probably right. Dumb design though. Why wouldn't you center the heatpipe that actually transfers heat above the die instead of off to the side?

Maybe the folk that designed it know how to best cool it?

 

[Corto]

Has some reliable site measured the difference in noise production in the two positions?

 

[thewhitehawk]

Is it just me or does it seem like people are grasping for straws to complain about the Playstation 4?

 

[TheExodu5]

Has some reliable site measured the difference in noise production in the two positions?

Not AFAIK. So far it's just anecdotal evidence.

Is it just me or does it seem like people are grasping for straws to complain about the Playstation 4?

It's just you.

 

[Corto]

Not AFAIK.

It could be as you already posted that it was a deliberate decision of Sony engineers. If the delta of temperatures/noise production was at reasonable levels they chose to ignore it and not redesign the placement of the heatsink.

 

[StaSeb]

I for one, found OPs post plausible, reasonable and well constructed. Far better than the other one with the gibberish about the japanese PS4 (was it about that? idk).
Imho the way the heatpipes are bent might explain why PS4s are a bit louder vertically. I witnessed the effect and was wondering why. This is a good way of thinking about the cause of that affect.

Is it a flaw? An annoyance? Depends on you. No need to get fighty about that. I for one prefer very quiet to dead silent electronics and now i know one thing: This thing will live its life lying down!

edit: Nice detecitve work going on here, GAF.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Disclaimer: This is an educated guess based on exposure to similar issues in the PC world (e.g. Silverstone FT02 with heatpipe GPU coolers)..

I have an FT02 and a gpu with heat pipes. I ran stress tests with the case standing normal (vertical heat pipes) and with the case on its side (normal, horizontal heat pipes), and saw a difference of 1 degree, perhaps 2. I was unconvinced it poses any sort of problem.


The video card: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00942TK8I/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[TheExodu5]

I have an FT02 and a gpu with heat pipes. I ran stress tests with the case standing normal (vertical heat pipes) and with the case on its side (normal, horizontal heat pipes), and saw a difference of 1 degree, perhaps 2. I was unconvinced it poses any sort of problem.


The video card: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00942TK8I/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Notice the orientation in which your heatpipes are laid out. They would still be horizontal in the FT02. If the heatpipes were lengthwise instead of up-down, they would be then vertical in the FT02.

Anyways, fixed the OP to specify only "certain heatpipe GPU coolers".

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Notice the orientation in which your heatpipes are laid out. They would still be horizontal in the FT02.

Let me go test again....

 

[TheExodu5]

Let me go test again....

You would have to lay the FT02 on its side with the GPU upside down for the heatpipes to be oriented the wrong way. That GPU is actually really nicely designed as the orientation would never be an issue regardless of your case type.

edit: wait...actually that GPU wouldn't do well in a desktop (flat layout) style PC.

 

[RealMeat]

Guess I won't be getting a stand.

 

[TheExodu5]

Guess I won't be getting a stand.

If the issue isn't heatpipe related and is more to do with airflow, then the PS4 might be fine vertically on a stand. This is still just a hypothesis at this point.

In the case that it is indeed louder, there's nothing wrong with running it vertically...it will just be a little louder, and that might not bother you.

 

[maabus1999]

Good thread.

So is there enough space for Sony to actually position the pipes correctly when in vertical? Or were they forced into a compromise (i.e., use the less optimal method but make sure the fan can compensate)?

 

[Penryn]

Depends on the game. Killzone takes my ps4 for a wild ride every time.

I have noticed that I actually hear the fans when being 1 meter away from the console when Killzone is playing, but anything like AC4 the console is noiseless.

When the console is on its back instead of standing up I notice the fans less as well ... but this could be because of resonance (right word??) rather than the fans working harder.

 

[Whiteshirt]

Notice the orientation in which your heatpipes are laid out. They would still be horizontal in the FT02. If the heatpipes were lengthwise instead of up-down, they would be then vertical in the FT02.

Anyways, fixed the OP to specify only "certain heatpipe GPU coolers".

The problem has to do with heat pipe quality...I'm fairly certain about this.

I've used a a Twin Frozer, Gainward Phantom, Arctic Accerelero and currently a EVGA ACX in my FT02. No temp difference that I can perceive with any of these heatsinks.

 

[Rentahamster]

I have an FT02 and a gpu with heat pipes. I ran stress tests with the case standing normal (vertical heat pipes) and with the case on its side (normal, horizontal heat pipes), and saw a difference of 1 degree, perhaps 2. I was unconvinced it poses any sort of problem.


The video card: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00942TK8I/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Check the FT02 FAQ: http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=242&area=en

There are two main types of heat pipes used in popular aftermarket coolers, they are groove and powder. Groove heat pipes are very susceptible to gravity while powder heat pipes are less so. To achieve best performance in either heat pipe technology, they need to be placed horizontally or have the heat source side located below the other end of the heat pipe. We recommend choosing and installing components with heat pipes carefully by taking into consideration of the following examples:

Your card's heatpipes are still in horizontal orientation in the FT02.

Something like this would not work as well:

The illustration here shows a VGA cooler that will not work well in the FT02 because the heat source side (touching the GPU) ends up being located higher than the other end.

 

[QaaQer]

Is it just me or does it seem like people are grasping for straws to complain about the Playstation 4?

yeah. this thread is great example of poster hubris/narcissism.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Just ran two test runs with 3DMark.

With the FT02 in it's normal upright position I was getting 60-61.

I then turned the FT02 on its right side, putting the GPU heat pipes in the arched orientation. Temps were still 60-61.

I don't know.... powder versus groove now?

I'm done worrying about heat pipe orientation.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Just ran two test runs with 3DMark.

With the FT02 in it's normal upright position I was getting 60-61.

I then turned the FT02 on its right side, putting the GPU heat pipes in the arched orientation. Temps were still 60-61.

I don't know.... powder versus groove now?

I'm done worrying about heat pipe orientation.

Guess I should read what you are talking about

Honestly if you don't hear any difference, I don't think you should worry about it.

 

[spwolf]

Sigh, you really pretend that 51 db under load is fine when system could run significantly quiter if a little change that will cost nothing was implemented ?

Why people think that OP is attacking their precious PS4 ?

Stop for a second and think a little - this thread is really interesting and 100% justified.

P.S. I also use my consoles vertically, so i will have to deal with PS4 that will work as loud as my PS3 Slim - and it is quite audible.

what are you even talking about, lol.

 

[TheExodu5]

Just ran two test runs with 3DMark.

With the FT02 in it's normal upright position I was getting 60-61.

I then turned the FT02 on its right side, putting the GPU heat pipes in the arched orientation. Temps were still 60-61.

I don't know.... powder versus groove now?

I'm done worrying about heat pipe orientation.

Could be powder versus groove. Could be fan speed differences. Could have to do with the positioning of the thermal plate versus the U bend or the ends (seems the FT02 FAQ says something about this).