Ah yeah. Yeah I mean, honestly something small like that they should have just done what they did with ME2 -> ME3 with characters being replaced if they didn't make it through the previous game. Just shows how committed bioware is to the whole choice and consequence thing.
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Dragon Age 2 Story Discussion - No Spoiler Tags Required
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Ah yeah. Yeah I mean, honestly something small like that they should have just done what they did with ME2 -> ME3 with characters being replaced if they didn't make it through the previous game. Just shows how committed bioware is to the whole choice and consequence thing.
The Mage vs Templar thing is really the worst of the main "conflicts" presented in DAO, I can't understand why they decided to make it the main story of the series with DA II. At least the Darkspawns had all the mistery regarding the Ancient Gods corruption, even if as enemies they were an unispired version of Orcs from LOTR.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Well, that and they did a real shitty job of trying to be clever with her character. Even from Origins, it's clear that she is an agent of the Maker. They could have easily had some vague dialogue about her "death", but they chose to try to be "smart".
My problem was with the whole Mages vs Templars bullshit. They try to have it both ways. Nearly every mage is a fucking evil abomination (Except Merril?) but we're suppose to be sympathetic because they're oppressed. Which the game whines about constantly. Meanwhile, the Templar's are painted as evil authority abusing dicks, and we're suppose to choose.
Only what you pick doesn't mean shit because the developers are telling their story and you're just along for the ride. That retarded mage will always blow up the chantry and there's nothing you can do about it. Thereby killing the only mildly relatable faction in the game, cause THIS IS THE EXTREME! Woo! They then try to rationalize it away with pro-terrorism bullshit about why you shouldn't cut the guy's head off. That was like the most 'Biowarian" cliched thing anyone could ever imagine, and they did it.
Meanwhile, Head mage dude turns out to be, surprise, an abomination. While the hard-nosed commander really was just an evil bitch all along. Nevermind that 30 hours or so of painting them as conflicted people in a difficult situation. No, giant monsters! Woo! Woo!
But Isabella, Varric, Aveline, and Merril were all well done. If there's a high point to DA2 outside of the combat and music, it is the characters. I liked them much more than the DA:O folks. Well, outside of that whiny mage and the emo elf guy. Those were terrible.
Only what you pick doesn't mean shit because the developers are telling their story and you're just along for the ride. That retarded mage will always blow up the chantry and there's nothing you can do about it. Thereby killing the only mildly relatable faction in the game, cause THIS IS THE EXTREME! Woo! They then try to rationalize it away with pro-terrorism bullshit about why you shouldn't cut the guy's head off. That was like the most 'Biowarian" cliched thing anyone could ever imagine, and they did it.
Meanwhile, Head mage dude turns out to be, surprise, an abomination. While the hard-nosed commander really was just an evil bitch all along. Nevermind that 30 hours or so of painting them as conflicted people in a difficult situation. No, giant monsters! Woo! Woo!
But Isabella, Varric, Aveline, and Merril were all well done. If there's a high point to DA2 outside of the combat and music, it is the characters. I liked them much more than the DA:O folks. Well, outside of that whiny mage and the emo elf guy. Those were terrible.
Fimbulvetr
Member
I think the root of this is how secondary characters were written.Mxrz said:
Pretty much all of them were two-dimensional; driven by very typical and undeveloped reasoning (this one Templar, whose name I forget, that has a mage for a daughter manages to avert the former issue but not the latter).
This is especially noticeable with the antagonists. Zealotry, insanity, or possession were typically used as narrative crutches for explaining why all these jerks exist, rather than just making them interesting people with different takes on the central conflict.
Almost nothing new was really said about the Templar/Mage conflict that wasnÂ’t already said in DA:O.
It really says a lot that the two most(see. only) compelling characters have no real opinion on the gameÂ’s central conflict. All of the above combined just serves to inspire apathy.
Yet another way DA2 fails to meet its supposed goal of being a personal story.
Varric and Aveline?
Fimbulvetr
Member
Who else?Patryn said:
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Merrill.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Definitely- with how much of a non factor Hawke is in DA2 (Anders is the driving narrative force), DA2 would have been better served as the book tie in and Asunder the actual game.
That way you could have had Asunder as DA2, maybe letting you pick between a mage/templar Origin story and then join up with Wynne, Rhyss, Shale, Evangeline and that other mage (the red head one...can't think of her name). You'd be in a new place (Orlais) get to travel out of the city (!) and explore new areas and then maybe get to influence whether the mages rebel or not.
I think they were trying to make both sides out to be dangerous in DA2, but they just made both sides incredibly unlikeable to the point of me not caring what they do- let them kill each other, I don't care.
I think they need more Templar characters that aren't total assholes. I mean, between Origins and DA2 we have tons of mage companion characters and how many Templars have we had? Alistair was an ex Templar and thats it. Most of the other ones are portrayed as pseudo-fascists. Or even Asunder where you have a decent Templar in Evangeline who ends up just totally sympathizing with the mage cause and becoming an abomination like Wynne.
Yup. Meredith seemed interesting for a while but then she gets her insanity inducing lyrium lightsaber sword. BioWare just doesn't do a very good job with creating morally grey characters. Like Roche or Iorveth in The Witcher 2 are great as they're complicated characters. Even somebody like Loghain in Origins was a good antagonist as he had his motivations for doing what he was doing without resorting to insanity.
I guess its a common thread in many of BioWare's antagonists- just look at indoctrination in something like Mass Effect- its not much different than possession in Dragon Age.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Loghain had his reasons, but you could very much argue that he was insane by the end.
Hell, the only reason he joins the Grey Wardens is to be a Martyr.
LumpOfCole
Member
I loved the dwarven politics of DA:O so much. The whole dwarf story was the height of my enjoyment with the series, actually - maybe I'm biased since I was a dwarf noble and I got some good, rich backstory to compliment the dwarf parts.
She's also an awful character. She talks of demons and blood magic like if they are a power of good. She also has an opinion on the whole mages/templars conflict and side with the mages.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
She's a great character. The moment I found out that she wasn't naive, but rather she just didn't give a fuck, was great.
Touche.
She's naive. She believes the demon will help her repair her magical mirror. If you do her quest completely and you kill the keeper and the villagers she admit that she was wrong for believing the demon and using blood magic and that she should have listened to the keeper. If she didn't give a fuck she wouldn't be admitting her mistake and crying at the outcome of her stupid plan.
I think Sebastian was supposed to represent the Chantry side, but he was a fucking terrible character (seriously: I hate killing, but I want you to hunt down and murder all my enemies!), so that undermined everything.
They really need to have a super sympathetic Templar character soon, or I'll be right there with you screaming a pox on all their houses. Because at this point, I feel like slaughtering every mage, because they're totally a blood mage, and every Templar because they're just a fascist who loves to hurt other people.
Well, I guess there's also Fenris, but he was also a terrible character.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I called Sebastian Prince Sensitive.
Fenis. Oh, Fenris. Oh, you.
Not giving a fuck and not knowing when you fucked up are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Fenis. Oh, Fenris. Oh, you.
Not giving a fuck and not knowing when you fucked up are not mutually exclusive ideas.
In her case and for Bioware writers it is, unfortunately. Do you think she would have done it if she knew what would have happened? It's pretty clear she wouldn't have tried to repair it. She was simply believing in the demon and never thought he would murder someone. The plot used her to show how dangerous mages could be when no one is there to teach them about blood magics and demons. She wasn't evil, she was just a stupid girl.
Unlike Fenris and Anders, rage and hatred weren't at the core of her "risk" potential. Anders was a risk because Justice changed into Vengeance inside of him and how he lost his boyfriend to the templars. It made him unstable and hold a deep grudge against the templars.
Years of Fenris have turned Fenris into a crazed mage hater/killer. Since he only remember Tevinter, he thinks all mages are evil and controlling like those living there. Because of this he's automatically hostile to mages.
With Merryl the danger came from her own stupidity combined with the gift of magic. She was seduced easily by a demon and no one was able to pull her out of the mess in time. It showed how even mages with a good heart could be used by demons and could be considered a threat. There's not much else to it.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Eh...but he was a human character with human motivations from beginning to end. His characterization could have been fleshed out more but he didn't pull a Meredith at turn into some super powered magical boss fight either. Sure, he fucked things up but towards the end he realizes he messed up. He had good intentions but things got out of control and joining the Wardens is what he sees as some kind of redemption.
Which is another issue with the whole mage thing and possession is how its always a bad demon taking over. I guess Wynne has her friendly spirit helping her, and I guess Anders and Justice started out friendly. But then in both instances, they prove to be ticking time bombs, with Anders going bonkers vengeance abomination and even in the book Asunder, Wynne goes batshit insane for a bit.
I'd like to see more ambiguous scenarios present themselves- like in Origins in the mage tower you have that one templar and the desire demon, but the templar was willingly taken over cause his life sucked. It wasn't a black and white scenario.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Meh.HP_Wuvcraft said:
He was wrong and did stupid things, but he never fell into cackling insanity the way lots of DA2 villains did.HP_Wuvcraft said:
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It is simply one of the stupidest plot point ever conceived in the Dragon Age games. It's like the Dragon Age team pointing at the player and saying, "Choices? What choices brah?" while laughing hysterically.
There were no choices in that game. I wonder what, if any, would carry over to the next game.
Orsino suddenly becoming the Harvester from Gollems of Agmarrak (sp?) was when I finally noticed how lazy DA2 was in terms of asset reuse 
If you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with her, is it ever mentioned in the game? I remember my import bugging out and not recognising it properly.
If you romanced Morrigan and went through the Eluvian with her, is it ever mentioned in the game? I remember my import bugging out and not recognising it properly.
Fimbulvetr
Member
They didn't even do illusion of choice properly.
Like after Shepherding Wolves, you can threaten to kill Petrice, but then she just leaves.
This wouldn't be a problem, 'cept the game doesn't give you any actual plot justification for why you or Hawke wouldn't want to off her right then and there.
I'm going to guess that they don't do the save transfer thing for Dragon Age 3. Just start over with a clean slate.
That would disappoint. I suppose it would be impossible to ask for an appearance from my warden in this game, as they have promised. I bet it'll be some generic-looking person that they'll call the warden and the default form for the mostly incompetent Hawke.
I can't believe they destroyed Dragon Age so quickly. :'(