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Dragon Age: Bioware striving for same experience for PC and consoles.

JudgeN said:
I knew some retard was going to say this, I actually own BG2. I got about 1/2 way threw then my PC crashed and lost my save and gave up (note this was like 8 years ago when I still depending on my parents for money). It didn't seem super complex when I was 15 so I'm still trying to see what people are talking about.
Compared to KOTOR's and Mass Effect simplified mechanics? I'm not kidding, especially on KOTOR's case, you cannot say that it's not a simplified BG on a Star Wars setting. For the record I love KOTOR.
Of course these sort of games aren't the multi million sellers big companies want and that's why there's few and fewer each year.
 
JudgeN said:
Example? What is the PC doing that give it this magic gameplay depth that consoles can't achieve?

More key's, you're closer to the screen so you can have more things at your HUD/screen, a (MOD) community, mouse+kb controls, faster gameplay possible and a larger (real) hardcore crowd.

It's really hard to point out the real difference between console games and pc games, but some really deep/complex games wouldn't work on consoles. Take as example the Anno games, Civ (not the consolefied version), Hearts of Iron, Tribes series, flight/boat/submarine/race sims, fast RTS games and go on.

You saw it with Deus Ex 2, to make it console friendly they made all the nano upgrades easier and less 'complex', less options, less different ammo type etc etc etc. Same with Oblivion, KOTOR, Mass Effect and go on.

And I don't mind a console port, or a similar experience, as long as the game for the PC is created with the PC fully in mind (of all the possibilities and strong points). I wouldn't say it is dumbed down, but made more casual friendly for console gamers. I still feel that to many games these day are to easy or simplified. I like it to be wondering in a game, exploring and finding out stuff. I don't want that everything is to obvious and to limited. In this way I like Stalker really much, sometimes you don't know what to do and it is frustrating, but once you find out what to do it gives a lot of satisfaction.

But this a dissapointment. But they will probably
 
Seems like a sequel is planned, also post release content. Where have we heard that before?

http://www.videogamer.com/news/21-10-2008-9715.html

When asked if Dragon Age was a franchise BioWare intends to return to in the future, Knowles replied: "We're already planning the future, what the team's going to do, where the IP's going to go. We've spent years developing the world. There's many more countries in the world than the one you're visiting in the first game, there's thousands of years of history, there are a lot of exciting places and events for players to experience, so we're definitely hoping to see the Dragon Age IP have a really bright life after the initial release."

"I think we wouldn't be looking at a long drought," he said. "We want to keep players engaged in it. Post release content will be coming out fairly regularly for people to download. And then we'd obviously want to have some other product out in a reasonable time frame so people haven't forgotten about Dragon Age by the time it comes out. So it'd be smart of us to have stuff come out sooner rather than later."
 
I had given up on bioware a long time ago but news like this still pains me =\

I actually don't understand why people think stuff like character interactions will be dumbed down solely to being on a console. To me it is all about them having to dumb down the battle system and the interface used for it on consoles.

micromanaging the details of combat to the level that I like to in games like fallout tactics, baldur's gate, icewind dale, etc, with a controller is a logistical nightmare. And if a developer is creating a game with a controller in mind they are going to have to dumb down a lot of the micromanagement to work with the limited number of buttons on any gamepad.
 
JudgeN said:
I knew some retard was going to say this, I actually own BG2. I got about 1/2 way threw then my PC crashed and lost my save and gave up. It didn't seem super complex when I was 15 so I'm still trying to see what people are talking about.

:lol :lol :lol :lol

Maybe you should try again, and especially compare to recent Bioware offerings.
 
inner-G said:
Nothing that cool ever happens in WRPG threads.

We can give him a victory pose

konakona957.jpg
 
PepsimanVsJoe said:
Okay I'm starting to have a bit of trouble telling whether or not these last few posts are sarcastic or not.
Welcome to PC vs console GAF threads!

The PC community tend to argue their point, then play around with their console brethren.
 
Hitmeneer said:
More key's, you're closer to the screen so you can have more things at your HUD/screen, a (MOD) community, mouse+kb controls, faster gameplay possible and a larger (real) hardcore crowd.

It's really hard to point out the real difference between console games and pc games, but some really deep/complex games wouldn't work on consoles. Take as example the Anno games, Civ (not the consolefied version), Hearts of Iron, Tribes series, flight/boat/submarine/race sims, fast RTS games and go on.

You saw it with Deus Ex 2, to make it console friendly they made all the nano upgrades easier and less 'complex', less options, less different ammo type etc etc etc. Same with Oblivion, KOTOR, Mass Effect and go on.

And I don't mind a console port, or a similar experience, as long as the game for the PC is created with the PC fully in mind (of all the possibilities and strong points). I wouldn't say it is dumbed down, but made more casual friendly for console gamers. I still feel that to many games these day are to easy or simplified. I like it to be wondering in a game, exploring and finding out stuff. I don't want that everything is to obvious and to limited. In this way I like Stalker really much, sometimes you don't know what to do and it is frustrating, but once you find out what to do it gives a lot of satisfaction.

But this a dissapointment. But they will probably

Interesting, ill have to research it but its funny. I tend to play certain games only on PC or consoles and not both to actually realize the differences between the 2. Ill have to go back and give BG 2 a whirl but I'm afraid it will look like shit on my 22" monitor.
 
Wow wtf is wrong with you guys? Jesus Christ this is pathetic. Bioware has proven with Mass Effect that it can make GREAT concole RPG's, hell, Mass Effect was goddamn awesome. I never expected Dragon Age to come even close to the awesomeness of Mass Effect, but who knows. I'll get it for the PC just because it'll look better, don't go bullshiting about how the gameplay will be worse because it's available on consoles.
 
Mr. Durden said:
Wow wtf is wrong with you guys? Jesus Christ this is pathetic. Bioware has proven with Mass Effect that it can make GREAT concole RPG's, hell, Mass Effect was goddamn awesome. I never expected Dragon Age to come even close to the awesomeness of Mass Effect, but who knows. I'll get it for the PC just because it'll look better, don't go bullshiting about how the gameplay will be worse because it's available on consoles.


ME wasn't awesome for a lot of us. It was a dumbed down RPG, full of mainstream bullshit; if you want to pick a good example pick KOTOR
 
speedpop said:
The PC community tend to argue their point, then play around with their console brethren.

I'd rather read some more arguments then because some of this is just annoying.

TheOneGuy said:
Then ignore it.

I, personally, find it hilarious.

Yeah it was great the first hundred or so PC vs console threads but c'mon. Eventually we've got to have a little intelligent gaming discussion going on.
 
I don't like this at all. I still have some hope this game may be good but I really don't know after Mass Effect shipped with all those problems.
 
kevm3 said:
Frankly, I fail to see why some of you guys are celebrating and yelling, "BITTER PC TEARS LULZ." I mean you're basically cheering on getting a vastly inferior experience, but then again this is GAF. Seeing "meltdowns" is better than actually getting the best game possible.

Exactly. It's sad to see people praising the dumbing down of games simply in order to take a shot at PC gamers, which is amusing given how they always bristle when you call it "dumbing down", yet now wear that as a badge of honor. And these are also the same people that profess themselves as hardcore gamers and whine about casual gamers.

Console-centric gamers will call you elitist for stating such things, but we all know it's a "bitter people who cling to guns and religion" Obama-style "elitism" - pure truth-telling that some just don't want to hear.
 
The depth of the combat and the 'social experience' being simplified is why people are angry. DA was supposed to be the game catered towards PC gamers after Bioware catered to console gamers with Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

Now, back to what makes it so special. In BG2, from a purely combat perspective, mages play COMPLETELY different than fighters. Mages aren't merely archers who throw balls of fire instead of arrows. They can summon elementals who may or may not be friendly towards you... use combo spells to wreak havoc on enemies. For example, entangle some enemies and then spam the room with poison clouds. That's just the simple part. What makes it so good is the DEPTH. Fighters play different than mages, but fighters of different kits play completely different from each other. A barbarian, who can use armor, will play different than a Kensei, who can't use armor but gets attack bonuses. Let's not even get into dual classing.

Now let me give you a direct example of the complexity of combat and why it is good. You see a room full of golems that vastly overpower you. However, there is a treasure chest full of items that you want to get. So how do you get to it? You could take a brute force approach, attempt to cast strength and defense boosting spells and attempt to fight the golems, or you could use smarts and cast invisibility on one of your guys, have the mage summon some creatures... Make the creatures walk in the room and fight with the golems... While those summoned creatures are drawing the attention of the golems, you use the invisible guy to sneak in the room, grab the treasure and run out.

From a social perspective, what was so good about these games? Planescape Torment wasn't made by Bioware, but used the Infinity Engine. Play that game and see if you can tolerate most of the simplicity that are the stories in console rpgs. With BG2, there are tons of subtleties. For example, you can have a party with two females who are fighting over you and you have to make the choice of turning one down. If one of them gets too unhappy, they might leave the party or constantly complain. If you are a good party and you invite an evil character, he may eventually leave because he is tired of your good deeds, or just start attacking you. There are tons of conversation branches to really flesh out your character as well. The choices you make will determine whether you are consistent with the good, neutral, evil and the lawful, neutral, or chaotic alignment you chose when you began the game.

It doesn't really come across in words, but if you haven't, take the time to play BG2 with an open mind and LEARN the game and its complexities. After you do, you'll see exactly what people are complaining about. I'm the furthest thing from a PC elitist, but I'm not going to pretend like a lot of these games aren't being simplified detrimentally to cater them towards consoles.
 
Oh and I'm of the camp that Bioware really doesn't give a damn about "returning to their roots" and are more interested in cash money and fucking with people.

I mean honestly people these guys just made a SONIC RPG. Can you really expect me to believe anything they say about going back to what made them a respected developer?

All they're doing is just dragging the console-gamers in front of them to catch the bullets.
 
Anasui Kishibe said:
ME wasn't awesome for a lot of us. It was a dumbed down RPG, full of mainstream bullshit; if you want to pick a good example pick KOTOR
Kotor was great at the time, but I really don't like playing it anymore because of the combat. Also, I replayed Mass Effect A LOT, I loved the setting, the universe and it's amazing history a lot more than that of Star Wars (I love the movies).

Either way, both games were great, so what's with the lack of faith (saying you don't like Mass Effect doesn't mean it isn't a good game)
 
Anasui Kishibe said:
ME wasn't awesome for a lot of us. It was a dumbed down RPG, full of mainstream bullshit; if you want to pick a good example pick KOTOR
Oddly, the only thing I really liked about ME was the combat, while the only thing I really hated about KOTOR was the combat. If the two could somehow be fused, the result would be a truly great RPG for me.

Still, I have no confidence in Dragon Age. Everything I've heard about the world, including the very name, has been generic and boring. It feels exactly what ex Dungeon Masters make when they're sick of D&D. Maybe I'll warm up to it, but so far every element has just made me cringe. Yes, I'm being too judgmental, but I really expected better for how long this game has been simmering.
 
sionyboy said:
I didn't even know that Dragon Age had been confirmed for consoles, any Bioware game that is heading will always be met with open arms.

Especially Mass Effect 2. ;)
Ditto. I thought this was a stealth "haha, it's coming to consoles too" thread. When was it announced?

I'm not bothered either way to be honest - I liked their older stuff as much as games like KotOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect... but this one hasn't clicked with me.
 
PepsimanVsJoe said:
I've heard the same.
Still though I'm surprised more people haven't talked about this.
I want to try it out but there's just so much stuff coming out I don't know when it'll happen.
 
Lonesome_Raod said:
“I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.

Lonesome_Raod said:
“I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.

Lonesome_Raod said:
“I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.

Lonesome_Raod said:
“I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.

*cries*
 
Don't care, will probably buy it on the 360 if it is simultaneous release.

No multiplayer already broke my heart. Can't see how they could fuck it up for me beyond that.
 
kevm3 said:
The depth of the combat and the 'social experience' being simplified is why people are angry. DA was supposed to be the game catered towards PC gamers after Bioware catered to console gamers with Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

Now, back to what makes it so special. In BG2, from a purely combat perspective, mages play COMPLETELY different than fighters. Mages aren't merely archers who throw balls of fire instead of arrows. They can summon elementals who may or may not be friendly towards you... use combo spells to wreak havoc on enemies. For example, entangle some enemies and then spam the room with poison clouds. That's just the simple part. What makes it so good is the DEPTH. Fighters play different than mages, but fighters of different kits play completely different from each other. A barbarian, who can use armor, will play different than a Kensei, who can't use armor but gets attack bonuses. Let's not even get into dual classing.

Now let me give you a direct example of the complexity of combat and why it is good. You see a room full of golems that vastly overpower you. However, there is a treasure chest full of items that you want to get. So how do you get to it? You could take a brute force approach, attempt to cast strength and defense boosting spells and attempt to fight the golems, or you could use smarts and cast invisibility on one of your guys, have the mage summon some creatures... Make the creatures walk in the room and fight with the golems... While those summoned creatures are drawing the attention of the golems, you use the invisible guy to sneak in the room, grab the treasure and run out.

From a social perspective, what was so good about these games? Planescape Torment wasn't made by Bioware, but used the Infinity Engine. Play that game and see if you can tolerate most of the simplicity that are the stories in console rpgs. With BG2, there are tons of subtleties. For example, you can have a party with two females who are fighting over you and you have to make the choice of turning one down. If one of them gets too unhappy, they might leave the party or constantly complain. If you are a good party and you invite an evil character, he may eventually leave because he is tired of your good deeds, or just start attacking you. There are tons of conversation branches to really flesh out your character as well. The choices you make will determine whether you are consistent with the good, neutral, evil and the lawful, neutral, or chaotic alignment you chose when you began the game.

It doesn't really come across in words, but if you haven't, take the time to play BG2 with an open mind and LEARN the game and its complexities. After you do, you'll see exactly what people are complaining about. I'm the furthest thing from a PC elitist, but I'm not going to pretend like a lot of these games aren't being simplified detrimentally to cater them towards consoles.

Nice post. Depressing read, though, looking at the state of WRPGs these days. This is why I don't like reminiscing on BG2 and Planescape: Torment.
 
kevm3 said:
The depth of the combat and the 'social experience' being simplified is why people are angry. DA was supposed to be the game catered towards PC gamers after Bioware catered to console gamers with Kotor, Jade Empire and Mass Effect.

Now, back to what makes it so special. In BG2, from a purely combat perspective, mages play COMPLETELY different than fighters. Mages aren't merely archers who throw balls of fire instead of arrows. They can summon elementals who may or may not be friendly towards you... use combo spells to wreak havoc on enemies. For example, entangle some enemies and then spam the room with poison clouds. That's just the simple part. What makes it so good is the DEPTH. Fighters play different than mages, but fighters of different kits play completely different from each other. A barbarian, who can use armor, will play different than a Kensei, who can't use armor but gets attack bonuses. Let's not even get into dual classing.

Now let me give you a direct example of the complexity of combat and why it is good. You see a room full of golems that vastly overpower you. However, there is a treasure chest full of items that you want to get. So how do you get to it? You could take a brute force approach, attempt to cast strength and defense boosting spells and attempt to fight the golems, or you could use smarts and cast invisibility on one of your guys, have the mage summon some creatures... Make the creatures walk in the room and fight with the golems... While those summoned creatures are drawing the attention of the golems, you use the invisible guy to sneak in the room, grab the treasure and run out.

From a social perspective, what was so good about these games? Planescape Torment wasn't made by Bioware, but used the Infinity Engine. Play that game and see if you can tolerate most of the simplicity that are the stories in console rpgs. With BG2, there are tons of subtleties. For example, you can have a party with two females who are fighting over you and you have to make the choice of turning one down. If one of them gets too unhappy, they might leave the party or constantly complain. If you are a good party and you invite an evil character, he may eventually leave because he is tired of your good deeds, or just start attacking you. There are tons of conversation branches to really flesh out your character as well. The choices you make will determine whether you are consistent with the good, neutral, evil and the lawful, neutral, or chaotic alignment you chose when you began the game.

It doesn't really come across in words, but if you haven't, take the time to play BG2 with an open mind and LEARN the game and its complexities. After you do, you'll see exactly what people are complaining about. I'm the furthest thing from a PC elitist, but I'm not going to pretend like a lot of these games aren't being simplified detrimentally to cater them towards consoles.

You sir are the king of superb examples. The golem example I have a faint memory of a room just like that in BG2 outside of the main city. Yea, I'm have to give the game another whirl now. Anyone know if this will work on Vista 64? Or good mod websites and such?
 
Zeliard said:
Console-centric gamers will call you elitist for stating such things, but we all know it's a "bitter people who cling to guns and religion" Obama-style "elitism" - pure truth-telling that some just don't want to hear.
Oh dear, now I see why the Democratic party in the United States needed somebody with Obama's sheer force of rhetorical ability and inclusive sentiment to rescue it from itself.

The hysteria in this thread is standard premature GAF overblown paranoia. The game is months away from being reviewable and will be *ported to consoles months after it is released for the PC with a different UI and control scheme according to the interview that you guys are screaming about*. The only new gameplay revelation in this thread is that instead of having a limited stock of spells D&D style they will be on a timer and frankly you should blame MMOs for that as it has nothing to do with consoles.

Some of you in this thread are starting to resemble the insular, angry, and reactionary Fallout true believers. That way madness lies.
 
Most of my BG2 experience was spent summoning monsters and getting them to enter un-explored areas. They fought with whatever until they died, then I'd rest, restore my spells, and summon some more. Good times.

I should do a more honest playthrough sometime, maybe once I buy a new PC(which surprisingly will be in the very near future).
 
Azih said:
Oh dear, now I see why the Democratic party in the United States needed somebody with Obama's sheer force of rhetorical ability and inclusive sentiment to rescue it from itself.

What does that have to do with anything I wrote? Mystifying, as Obama's "bitter" statements that I brought up are the opposite of "inclusive sentiment". They are simply the truth.

The hysteria in this thread is standard premature GAF overblown paranoia. The game is months away from being reviewable and will be *ported to consoles months after it is released for the PC with a different UI and control scheme according to the interview that you guys are screaming about*. The only new gameplay revelation in this thread is that instead of having a limited stock of spells D&D style they will be on a timer and frankly you should blame MMOs for that as it has nothing to do with consoles.

Some of you in this thread are starting to resemble the insular, angry, and reactionary Fallout true believers. That way madness lies.

Clearly you must have glazed over this part:

“We want to assure you that on the consoles, the game has the whole feature set of the PC experience, because it’s a classical western RPG,” said Knowles [translated].

They are assuring console gamers that they will get the same exact experience as a game that was deliberately meant to be tailor-made for the PC.

If you can show me a single console WRPG with a fourth of the depth of Baldur's Gate 2, the game that Bioware themselves has continually and with no hesitation said Dragon Age is a "spiritual successor" to (and that DA would be their triumphant return to PC gaming), then I'll concede the point. But I know you can't, since one doesn't come remotely close to existing.
 
Azih said:
Oh dear, now I see why the Democratic party in the United States needed somebody with Obama's sheer force of rhetorical ability and inclusive sentiment to rescue it from itself.

The hysteria in this thread is standard premature GAF overblown paranoia. The game is months away from being reviewable and will be *ported to consoles months after it is released for the PC with a different UI and control scheme according to the interview that you guys are screaming about*. The only new gameplay revelation in this thread is that instead of having a limited stock of spells D&D style they will be on a timer and frankly you should blame MMOs for that as it has nothing to do with consoles.

Some of you in this thread are starting to resemble the insular, angry, and reactionary Fallout true believers. That way madness lies.

Actually the only new information this interview confirmed is that the PC version of the game is entirely playable with a console controller. Do you really think that such information has no implications for a title that was touted as having RTS like strategic combat? I'm pretty sure that all the story content got translated to the console build just fine, but in order to make them having even remotely similar gameplay the RTS style design on the PC end has probably ended up on the chopping block.
 
My Arms Your Hearse said:
You've obviously never played a REAL PC RPG.

LULZ, you are trying to derail the thread? oh, the all-mighty PC GAMER Species:lol
consoles now run the gaming-business, didn't get the memo?
 
We already knew that Dragon Age wouldn't be as large and full of content as BG2 ages ago when Bioware admitted that they wouldn't be able to create anything like that again. That again has nothing to do with consoles but has everything to do with the impression that games of today require a lot more polish and flash than games during the BG2 era.
 
I'm going to be an even greater hero and not support these bastards. Buy Alpha Protocol/any other game made by Obsidian instead! Support developers that haven't jumped the shark! lol Bioware!
 
Zeliard said:
If you can show me a single console WRPG with a fourth of the depth of Baldur's Gate 2, the game that Bioware themselves has continually and with no hesitation said Dragon Age is a "spiritual successor" to (and that DA would be their triumphant return to PC gaming), then I'll concede the point. But I know you can't, since one doesn't come remotely close to existing.
You'll have to define 'depth' first. If you mean in story, what about KOTOR? If you mean in game mechanics, what about Morrowind?
 
Really, Bioware died with Jade Empire. They got a taste of that console money and never looked back.

As a PC fan, with the absolute death of the single player RPG experience, we have no choice but to bend over and accept whatever they do. You may bitch and complain, but you will still play this game because nothing else will be out there that will even be close.

Even if it does have a ton of flaws, it will still probably be the top (single player) RPG of the year, just by default.
 
kevm3 said:
Now let me give you a direct example of the complexity of combat and why it is good. You see a room full of golems that vastly overpower you. However, there is a treasure chest full of items that you want to get. So how do you get to it? You could take a brute force approach, attempt to cast strength and defense boosting spells and attempt to fight the golems, or you could use smarts and cast invisibility on one of your guys, have the mage summon some creatures... Make the creatures walk in the room and fight with the golems... While those summoned creatures are drawing the attention of the golems, you use the invisible guy to sneak in the room, grab the treasure and run out.
Great example, and the thing is that this is without even going into the vast array of well differentiated, incredibly useful one-shot items or all the other spells that could be used in such a situation. Some people like to complain about the D&D ruleset, but I still haven't seen a game not based on a pen&paper ruleset that offers even a fraction of the variety of strategies available in, say, BG2.

Aaron said:
If you mean in game mechanics, what about Morrowind?
Please tell me you're joking.

ToxicAdam said:
Even if it does have a ton of flaws, it will still probably be the top (single player) RPG of the year, just by default.
I wasn't aware that Obsidian won't release a game in 09.
 
solid2snake said:
LULZ, you are trying to derail the thread? oh, the all-mighty PC GAMER Species:lol
consoles now run the gaming-business, didn't get the memo?
Look, I understand you're bitter that developers have to dumb down games to appeal to you and yours, but that's no reason to throw around insults.
 
Here are the comments that are sending you guys into full defend the advanced controls and depth hive.

“We want to assure you that on the consoles, the game has the whole feature set of the PC experience, because it’s a classical western RPG,” said Knowles [translated].
Which in the most direct sense reads like Bioware is getting the full classical western RPG experience into consoles for the first time. You are free to assume that this means dumbing it down if you wish but it remains paranoid to do so.

And I have absolutely no freaking idea where anyone can get "Actually the only new information this interview confirmed is that the PC version of the game is entirely playable with a console controller" from
I even sometimes play the PC build with the Xbox 360 controller, what makes a lot of fun,” he added.
ESPECIALLY since he goes on to freaking say
Dragon Age will be no typical console RPG, but we hope to get the same quality experience as on the PC. We want to tailor the perfectly game to the consoles and we are aware, that the interface and the controls are a important factor.
They're freaking changing the interface and the controls on the console versions so grow a pair and stop having hysterics.
 
kevm3
Some good stuff

That is true about BG etc, but most of that was due to THE implementation of AD&D rules in a game, not because of Bioware perse, IMO.

Take AD&D away from Bioware and they lose a lot of what made BG2 what it was - i.e. the depth was all AD&D.

I'm sure Bioware could make a BG2 again, but they'd have to go back to a core AD&D game.

However, I reckon that Biware felt like they'd exhausted all the AD&D possibilities after NWN and Aurora.
 
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